Energy White Paper- Issues Paper-EV's

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
MrD
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Energy White Paper- Issues Paper-EV's

Post by MrD » Tue, 31 Dec 2013, 19:56

Hi All,
The Energy White Paper - Issues paper was released 'quietly' just before Christmas, and submissions are due by Friday 7th February 2014.
A submission template is available from the website at www.ewp.industry.gov.au
Section 8 of the Issues Paper invites comments on barriers to the uptake of EV's.
I encourage you all to make a submission, to educate our policy makers, debunk the myths about EV's and improve the debate....
Below are some of my own ideas.....

I am an electric vehicle owner (Mitsubishis i-MiEV) and the ONLY barrier to all-electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid vehicles is their high up-front capital cost. All other issues or barriers raised regarding electric vehicles are either temporary, imaginary or 'myths' perpetuated by the fossil fuel lobby. Like more than 50% of Australian households, we are a two (or more) car household, and our Internal Combustion (IC) car is the vehicle of choice for long trips and towing. However, around 95% of our trips are short, (eg daily work commute) and the vehicle of choice here is the all-electric car charged overnight on off-peak rates or on weekends from my solar panels. Fuel cost per km is about one fith of the IC car, a VW beetle.
Range anxiety is a 'temporary' condition that lasts about two weeks. I have never been 'stranded' in the electric, and this is no different than understanding the fuel tank range in a conventional IC car. The vehicle has always been charged at home. I have had no need to charge the vehicle at work, or any other location in the 9 months I have owned it. If necessary, the vehicle can be charged from a standard power point, or in an emergency, a portable generator. A lack of public charging infrastructure is therefore not as significant an issue as it is often made out to be.
The plug-in hybrids (such as the Holden Volt, Mitsubishi Outlander or BMW i3) are available for the single car family, or where a longer range may more regularly be required.
Regarding grid integration issues, my research from the various Australian and overseas EV trials is that these are minimal if not negligible. I presented a paper on this matter at the EECON National Conference in June 2013, drawing on information from the Ergon, AusGrid and WA EV trials.
The lithium ion batteries used in modern EV's have a 5 to 10 year warranty (depending on model) and are typically rated for 7000 charge/discharge cycles, which if charged daily, represents a 20 year life, at which point the battery can be largely recycled.
So, given the only real barrier to the uptake of EV's is their high up-front capital cost, how might this be mitigated or offset ????
1. Manufacture EV's here in Australia utilising the existing Ford and Holden assembly lines, with Government subsidies similar to those previously offered for IC cars plus some start-up funding. An example could be local production of a derivative of the Holden Volt.
2. Emmisions based vehicle registration fees, stamp duties, FBT etc.
3. Tax or Depreciation incentives for businesses to purchase/lease/use an EV (eg urban deliveries, Taxis etc)
4. Dedicated parking for EV's, access to transit lanes and urban taxi/bus precincts
5. Free charging stations at 'iconic' locations such as the National Gallery, National Library, War Memorial, Parliament House (old and new), Zoos etc.
6 Means tested 'capital grant' for purchase of an EV (similar to the k$8000 for Solar panels under the Howard Govt.)- such grants are available in the United States at both State and Federal levels.
7. Tax or Depreciation incentives for targeted businesses to install a charge point for public use where drivers park for an extended period (eg restaurants, cinemas etc)
8. Requirements on Government fleets to include an increasing percentage of plug-in vehicles, increasing demand for EV's and providing a 'pool' of second hand EV's.
9. Income tax rebate for individuals who own an EV, either a fixed amount per annum or based on kms travelled in a year on the presumption it lowers our current account deficit for oil not imported.
MrD-85-TSLA

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Post by Gabz » Tue, 31 Dec 2013, 21:10

The Government seeks comment on:
any barriers to increased uptake of LPG in private and commercial vehicles and CNG and LNG in the heavy vehicle fleet
and
any barriers to the increased uptake of electric vehicles and advanced biofuels
odd wording. the barrier to EV update is cost? of the car itself. lack of infrastructure is a perceived barrier but not really for 90% of driving.

The main barrier is perception. which the government can't really help with

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Post by Gabz » Tue, 31 Dec 2013, 21:14

Hybrid electric cars are becoming increasingly efficient and cost competitive in the market. However the widespread adoption of fully electric vehicles is presently very limited due to high upfront capital costs, battery storage constraints, lack of vehicle recharging infrastructure, electricity grid integration challenges and capacity constraints and consumer performance uncertainty


There are no gird integration challengers that I know of. not sure I agree with their report.

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Post by jonescg » Wed, 01 Jan 2014, 18:37

No, the Grid has stacks of capacity, it's just a matter of timing. Our city's railway lines can theoretically move 2 million people a day, but don't, because no-one wants to travel at 3 am. So the energy retailers simply need to offer a special tariff for charging at ideal times of day. Nothing major, and given they are struggling to avoid a death spiral, EVs could be their saviour. Deep down I don't care for "saving" electricity retailers; just knowing that I can make my own electricity from the sun to charge my EV makes me smile Image

The AEVA will make a submission before February.
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Post by Gabz » Thu, 02 Jan 2014, 01:54

actually I was thinking about EV evangelist story http://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/green- ... ts-at-home
thinking we don't need any special building rules.

but then I remember a friend who wanted to buy a LEAF but didn't because he was renting, and at the time thought you had to add a EVSE to the garage at the cost of $3k. (blame the LEAF sales people).

so there is a barrier to EV cars if your renting as there is nothing requiring your landlord to put in a power point to charge from.

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Post by markrmarkr » Sun, 12 Jan 2014, 06:15

My Issues paper comments

I have a bad fealing about this paper as it appears to be rail-roading discussion in directions which meet government agendas but appear to have only incidental relevance to the stated goals of the paper.

For example: Oil is presented in a way that makes it look like there are few problems. Supply is stable and secure. The only real issue is meeting IEA obligations to hold sufficient stock for emergencies. The presented solution is to find new sources of oil domestically so as to avoid the need to use some form of storage facilities. The paper talks at length about the need to reduce red tape and open up exploration as ways of facilitating this.

I'd contend that there are a number of problems with this. Sure our supplies are secure – if we are prepared to pay any price. At the moment we are still well in a world recession, yet oil prices are hovering around $100US a barrel.   Traditional world recessions are preceded by high oil prices and accompanied by low prices. Ie an overheated world economy has demand for oil which exceeds supply pushing prices up. Once the recession hits activity declines and so does demand for oil, and so the price drops.   That's not happening this time as demand from the emerging economies of China and the like are still increasing even now. In addition there is a lot of speculation that we have reached or passed peak oil production. Thus on average the price of oil is not likely to fall any time soon, and appears likely to only go higher.

I would have expected this to be central driving issues for the paper, but the possibility is not even raised.   A big disappointment.

The role EVs can play in getting us out of this mess is predicated on acknowledgement that there is a problem. If there is no problem – which is how the paper reads – then why do we need a solution.

The issues paper makes a big deal about the current “over supply of electricity”. So much so that I'd hesitate to bring up the point that: if you used the electricity currently used to refine oil into fuel, to power an EV, you could travel further than a conventional vehicle would travel using the refined fuel. Because if everyone switched to EVs this would make the over supply worse. And that's not the intended direction.

Similarly the issues paper makes a big deal about increasing exploration and reducing red tape, which is government speak for encouraging tight and shale gas exploration (and I'd hasard coal seam gas), presumably for power generation – it also talks about the need to update the electricity infrastructure, and also the need to go to a “smart grid” approach. This leads to the expectation that they are looking to gas for electricity production as a way of dealing with variability in demand. Given this the effect EVs could have in fixing the low demand off-peak problem we currently have, is not going to be good news for them.

In summary the paper is fatally flawed because it is intended to justify the agendas of the Abbot government at the expense of any form of rationality. I think our best approach is to publicly denigrate it rather than waste time trying to have a positive influence on it.
MarkR

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Post by g4qber » Sun, 12 Jan 2014, 15:11

DC DC fast charging may be useful for those not being able to install/use charge points at their residence.

The service station model is updated to supply all forms of energy, not just liquid energy.
It would be great if Petrol Multinationals could reinvent themselves like Madonna, Prince, Michael Jackson, Jack Farnham and come up with a new vision of Energy provider for the future.

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Post by jonescg » Fri, 07 Feb 2014, 21:26

Although this submission was left to the very last minute, I have submitted this document to the EWP taskforce on behalf of the AEVA. In the document I basically say that the energy market needs to be diversified, preferably with a greater share of renewables. EVs and renewable energy are a great mix, and that the AEVA supports any efforts to further this.

Also in the section on alternative technologies I have outlined a few ideas as to how the government could encourage EV uptake.

If you disagree with something I have said, it's probably cause I have worded it poorly, but I did try to be as general as possible. Sorry about the lack of consultation, but I think we really needed to submit something.

Here is the submission anyway:
Submission_to_Energy_Whitepaper_AEVA.pdf
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Post by MrD » Fri, 07 Feb 2014, 21:33

Thanks for the Update.....I have made a personal submission and contributed to submissions by Engineers Australia and the Electric Energy Society of Australia(EESA).
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Post by Gabz » Fri, 07 Feb 2014, 21:36

not that I think this government will listen to any of it but well done.

The only thing you missed was planning laws for multi dwelling unit (MDU) to have powerpoints in shared car parks... but i think that's a state regulation. when it comes to strata and the like

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Post by Gabz » Sat, 08 Feb 2014, 01:53

the Australian and odd article pointing out a fauls of inner city living and EVs bmw i3 and charging

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Sat, 08 Feb 2014, 02:30

I am in a set of townhouses in the ACT. I am only able to charge because a neighbour whose unit is next to our shared parking spaces lets me charge from a line run back to his unit's meter box. I paid to install a subsidiary meter on that line so that he and I can see what I have added to his power bill.
As more power points in shared parking areas are required in strata titled properties it would help to have legislation like in the ACT. We have a section (23) in the Unit Titles (Management) Act that means that installation of sustainability infrastructure on common property can be approved with an ordinary resolution (simple majority) so long as certain specified matters are covered in the proposal. Other states could do well to emulate this section.
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Post by Simon » Sat, 08 Feb 2014, 03:24

Image Good job Chris!

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Post by jonescg » Thu, 13 Feb 2014, 20:10

Ant just let me know that RenewEconomy has picked up on our submission!
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/can-an- ... stry-29560
Feel free to get all social-media on it's arse Image
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Post by adelaide-ev » Thu, 13 Feb 2014, 20:47

Well, that's a nice and positive article.

Well done with our submission.

Hope AGL's submission means they'll soon let me charge overnight at off peak rates!

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 13 Feb 2014, 21:19

adelaide-ev wrote:Hope AGL's submission means they'll soon let me charge overnight at off peak rates!

Don't they allow that now and how would they know?
In Canberra, having chosen time of use metering from ACTEW-AGL, I can plug in and operate anything I care to after 10PM (11PM summer) till 7AM (8AM in Summer) and I will be charged off-peak rates. Anything I choose to operate in the offpeak period will save me money relative to running it in the shoulder or peak time. That is the whole point, giving a price signal so that discretionary loads will be shifted to off peak times most of the time.
The only impediment to using offpeak for the car is that I have to charge from a neighbour's unit(and reimburse him, due to our townhouse parking arrangements)and he is on flat rate electricity pricing.
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Post by adelaide-ev » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 01:10


"Don't they allow that now and how would they know?"
[/QUOTE]

No they don't allow it in SA at present. There was a small window a couple of years ago when they did but I didn't have an electric car then.

Now some do it "unofficially" by rearranging their off peak electric hot water. Sadly that doesn't help those like me who have gas hot water and therefore no explainable need for off peak electric boosting to the solar HWS (or car!).

No TOU either for me although others may have. My long term plan is to go off grid with solar and batteries anyway but off peak would help in the meantime.

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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 13:46

"The lithium ion batteries used in modern EV's have a 5 to 10 year warranty (depending on model) and are typically rated for 7000 charge/discharge cycles, which if charged daily, represents a 20 year life, at which point the battery can be largely recycled."

7000 cycles and 20 year life. Sounds very optimistic. I was thinking 1/2 the number on both was more realistic?

Kurt
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Post by MrD » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 14:16

Hi Kurt....the 7000 cycle figure was given to me by an 'industry expert' when I asked the question at a conference I attended. Implicit in that is that capacity will have reduced with time (a few percent per year) and we also know that regular repeated 'fast charging' reduces battery life. So I agree the 'real world' answer is probably 10 years, which is about the average life of a small car.

My 15000km service was done yesterday on my MiEV with no problems, very little wear evident on brakes etc and at a 'fixed price' of $274...

Cheers...Chris
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 14:24

Yes I hope to get 10 years from our Imiev. Working on 20% capacity loss being the point of retirement for most people.

Regarding your 1500km service. Can I ask what they actually did for that $274. I know the genuine windscreen wiper fluid they use smells great and works well but I didn't think it was worth $274.

Kurt
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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 14:39

After almost 5 years my DIY converted car's battery (thunder sky LFP) is showing no change from its performance when new. I would be very surprised if the commercial car batteries were not good for well over 10 years.
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Post by MrD » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 17:36

Hi Kurt....The service was the 15,000km and as per the service manual....they had the car for most of the day. I have had the MiEV since Easter 2013 and typically drive 60 to 80kms per day.-Chris
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 18:36

Yes, I just looked at my service book it's just a visual inspection of everything nothing changed or replaced. Crazy they needed it all day.

Kurt
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Post by evric » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 18:46

They need it all day to make it look like they are doing lots to your car.
In reality, they can fit your inspection in between their other jobs.
Don't forget, this is the only way they make money from these EVs.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 14 Feb 2014, 18:56

That's it I am going to be the Ginny pig who never takes his in for the "service" I should save myself a good $3000 - $5000 over 10 years. And not be without the car for a full day. There's virtually nothing in the service book to be done other than a few small things like change brake fluid every few years and some visual inspections for broken/ worn parts.

Kurt

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