EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

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karlg
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by karlg »

The ABC's Checkout program tomorrow night (4.4.13) will have a segment on EVs.

Basically, it's about their carbon footprint IF you happen to charge from non-green power.

They have a Tesla Roadster, a Mitsubishi iMiEV and a Volt.

My interest in this is that the iMiEV is mine.

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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

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They ventured further than Parramatta to record content? Well I'll be! Image
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by weber »

In case you missed it, here's the EV segment from the ABC's new comedy consumer affairs show "The Check Out", by Julian Morrow and Craig Reucassel of "The Chaser". 6 minutes. Thanks to Mark Aylott for showing me this.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/thecheckout/cl ... riccar.mp4
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by Johny »

Thanks weber. I tend to avoid watching TV presentations on EVs because they go for entertainment rather than facts but this was one of the most well balanced and comprehensive lay-reports I have seen. Thanks for posting the link.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

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Melbs.   Image
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by acmotor »

I saw the program at the time but was happy to view again as some of the message was sooooo important.

Biggest holdup to EVs in Oz is Victoria. Sorry guys. Do something about it.

Worth adding is the fact that most ??? EV owners have PVs or WTs.

Charging from off peak power does not in itself result in 100% attributable CO2 emissions to the load since it is common for coal fired power stations not to reduce their fuel burn during off peak times anyway. A point missed.

And then there is the volt....
Just some real world tests here... A volt can be using 230Wh/km when an iMiEV is using 130Wh/km so that makes it 3 times as CO2 polluting as the V6 como in Victoria on that TV program's estimate.

Then when a volt is running on dino juice it can use up to twice the fuel of another small ICE vehicle.
So not a good EV and not a good ICE when it comes to emissions.
Yet the TV program presented it as a great vehicle ? It was falling short by their own criteria !
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by karlg »

Yes, if you buy an EV, you are most probably also buying/generating green power.
The problem is that because this is not quantified, we can't make any claims about it, so we end up at the lowest common denominator, which is where we say this, but people don't believe us.

Yes, charging at night when the power stations are free-wheeling means that even if you buy dirty power, your charging doesn't contribute any extra pollution.

Yes, after all, the Volt is still just a hybrid!


***

It's like there are several levels to the discussion that goes something like this:

1. EVs don't pollute

2. But I've heard that they produce more CO2 than an ICV because their power comes from dirty power stations. E.g., The Coal Powered Car article in Motor magazine a year ago.

3. Insert <The Checkout article>

4. Your points.

That's about as far as it seems to have gone for me at the moment. There are also a couple of other questions you can add in there somewhere:

a. Before: What about the pollution produced in the car's construction?

b. After: Can you recycle the batteries?


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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by Coulomb Racing »

Also a quick 2 cents, the in-efficiency of drilling, refining, shipping and trucking petrol to all the petrol stations should be added onto the true amount of CO2 emitted by ICE vehicles.

With the coal, atleast there isn't a huge CO2 footprint in terms of mine to steam turbine and once it's been converted to electricity it's something like 92% efficient in being transferred to your wall socket.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by karlg »

The well-to-wheel costs are very rubbery. I have heard estimates from 10% to 100% extra pollution.

These people http://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/GVG ... /home.aspx include about 10%, I believe.

You can use this page to search and include charging emissions: http://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/GVG ... earch.aspx

You can also follow from the home page to some discussions about EVs.

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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by Bryce »

Hmn, I too liked the report, but the carbon accounting was a little way off my calculations re Victoria. According to the NGERS tables (I did a carbon accounting course a while ago - so I followed the Australian Govt requirements religiously), it is not quite so bad in Victoria. If you want to check my figures out: I wrote an article on EV carbon accounting in the ATA's mag ReNew (edition 120).
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by acmotor »

Bryce, do you have a link to your article ? It sounds like interesting reading. Image
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by karlg »

Hi Bryce,

It sounds like this article would be a perfect candidate for the AEVA web site!


Would this be possible?
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by weber »

To read Bryce's article, go to http://renew.org.au/renew-archives/ and search on "Bryce". It's a free download for ATA members and only $5 for non-members. The $5 gets you the whole ReNew issue (#120) as a PDF.

ATA annual membership is $75 for individuals or $50 concessional and includes a subscription to the quarterly ReNew magazine.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by karlg »

By the sounds of things, this is exactly the sort of article which should be openly available and on an electric vehicle site..

The Coal Powered Car article stated that a Tesla Roadster would produce 284g/km if charged in Victoria, which is about the same as an auto Commodore SS at 292g/km. It also stated in a headline that "an iMiEV charged from the average Australian socket will emit almost 40 percent more CO2 than a Prius."
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by Bryce »

Yes, would be happy to put the article up on the site - but how would I do it?
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by woody »

I've heard from Renault? via Robert Llewelyn that petrol takes approximately the same amount of electricity to mine,refine,deliver as could be used to drive an EV the same distance?

So Mr Checkout wasn't entirely fair, in that the CO2 emissions only include the burning of petrol (tank to wheel), not the "well to tank" amount.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by acmotor »

Do keep in mind that the CO2 emissions arguments are never inclusive and are largely there to pacify those who can't see the writing on the wall for the future of transport.

Just like the roll of kodak gold 100asa from 12 years ago that sits in my fridge. Even the company is gone now ! Image
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by Richo »

Sure they weren't just taking a stab at Tassies since thier CO2 emissions would be so low if they all had eV's?
The range of the Tesla is about the size of Tassie.
So no excuses - all Taswegian's should be in a Tesla Image

The bit I liked was "the range would be less going up hills".
Sorry to burst the bubble but you can't always go UP.
Has anybody checked this on production cars with regen?
Perhaps up/down a hill @ 60kph vs on the flat @ 60kph

Kodak isn't gone it's just bankrupt.
The simile is still valid tho Image
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by whimpurinter »

Hi,

It seems to me that they have a point.

If you imagine your trip of 10kms which is regularly uphill for the first half of the trip and similarly downhill for the last half of the trip, the car is working hard for much of the first half. Down the other side, it is regenning.

From experience, the energy taken out of the batteries to go up the hill is much greater than the small amount of energy put back into the battery from regen. (Blade electron and Vectrix Scooters).

If your trip is mostly level, I feel that the energy use would be generally less than a hilly trip for the same reasons given above.

I know that any trip which seemed to have been fabulous for the amount of battery drop showing on the gauge will be hit hard on the return trip and vice versa.

Hilly areas are a bummer for ev's, it seems to me. Their weight means they really work hard up the hill and even if you glide down the other side, you've lost that lump of energy. Flat areas for me, but I'm not moving just to get it :)

I always drive to take advantage of regen, partly for the small amount of energy recovered, party because that's what we do :) but mostly to save wear and tear on the brakes. In fact, with my vehicles, including the Prius, I think I use almost no brakes as such.

Of course, you have to substitute tyre wear for brake wear if your drive wheel and regen wheel are the same (Vectrix).

Edited for clarity (I hope)

Last edited by whimpurinter on Mon, 15 Apr 2013, 05:31, edited 1 time in total.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by Johny »

Richo wrote:Has anybody checked this on production cars with regen?
Perhaps up/down a hill @ 60kph vs on the flat @ 60kph
Actually I have - in both a Nissan LEAF and my Vogue. I have a particular hill on the way to work that rises 80M in 1.2km.
Going up the hill costs between 6 and 8km in range on both the LEAF and the Vogue - it varies for some reason.
Coming down the hill gets back from 3.5 to 4.5km - again in both the LEAF and the Vogue. The Vogue might get back slightly less - 3.5 to 4km but they are so close it's hard to tell.
We had a LEAF on trial for 3 months at the end of last year.
It's fun in the Vogue watching the "fuel gauge" creep up as you descend the hill.

When I get a new battery for my laptop (ironic), I'll log the trip up and down. (The Vogue dash outputs a serial string with Battery volts, battery Amps and motor RPM every 1/2 second in comma delimited ASCII format).

Edit: Oh - the speed limit on the hill is 80 km/h.
Last edited by Johny on Mon, 15 Apr 2013, 05:48, edited 1 time in total.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by karlg »

I have heard that you only get about 17% back from regen..
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by Johny »

karlg wrote: I have heard that you only get about 17% back from regen..
That's probably slightly optimistic too. I'm noting my battery consumption vs distance travelled and once my driving style settles down (I stop accelerating for no reason whatsoever), I'll shut regen off for a couple of round trips to work (32 km up hill and down dale, 60->80 km/hr) and we'll compare it.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by weber »

karlg wrote:I have heard that you only get about 17% back from regen.

The part I question here is the "only". If you had a choice between a motor that was 90% efficient and one that was 75% efficient, would you say the 90% one would "only" save you 17%? Its also the difference between a range of 150 km and a range of 180 km. But of course cost and complexity must be considered too.
Last edited by weber on Mon, 15 Apr 2013, 15:28, edited 1 time in total.
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by acmotor »

On a flat road regen is 0%
On a small decline < say 2% regen is 0% but forward speed may be maintained with zero power from motor. (i.e. decline potential energy is consumed in aerodynamic/rolling resistance... all depending on speed)

Stopping (decel) or downhill that would normally require application of mechanical brakes produces regen at perhaps 86% eff. * of kenetic energy extracted from vehicle. Don't confuse gear and engine drag in ICE and brush drag in DC with the actual free rolling of a vehicle that an AC EV has.

* tyres/gears 95% eff. in 'direct drive'
emotor 93% eff.
controller 98% eff.
battery recharge 99% eff. (lithium)
gives combined 86%

So regen can extract say 86% of available energy that would have gone up as heat in the brakes. But available energy can be zero.
To say regen is worth '17%' is pointless unless the driving style/traffic/topography is considered.

I'd go with Johny that 17% across the board is optomistic. But lets see some specific case data. Low rolling resistance and aero drag probably account for more until the decline is > maybe 2%.

Then again I've been pegged on 16kW regen for 3 1/2 minutes down Bindoon hill at 110kmph (8 to 10 deg hill). That's 1kWh back in the pack, not far from the 1kWh extra energy used getting up there. ( 30kW for same 3 1/2 minutes going up and normally 10kW on the flat at 110kmph ) Image
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EV Segment on the ABC's Checkout program

Post by woody »

17% might be estimated average across all users.
If you had a common trip across a big hill or valley, regen would be a much bigger advantage than if you lived on the flats. But you'd still get better overall economy on the flats.
Regen captures some (most?) of the wasted energy, but better not to waste it in the first place if possible.
But if you've got it already (AC) you may as well use it...
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