Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 00:48

Hi all after a long health span. I have been given a Toyota hybrid prius and i am asking you good people what can be done at least of cost. The batteries are kaput the screen is broken apart from that the body looks unmarked -no rust Not sure what year but it has 4 cyl corolla motor All under bonet is still original the vehicle looks quite good -will need a bit of cut and polish. Although i built 2 electric cars and helped and assisted with 7 other i know nothing about this Prius
I would love to be able to remove all electrical and use it as a normal car( it (If possible) or remove the combustion motor and only use batteries any ideas?
My Dr told me I need a hobby this would be one that I could manage and would interest me
Thank you for listening to me and I hope you will be watching this topic with interest and provide some advise and thoughts.
Cheers Eugen

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by coulomb » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 02:16

Goombi wrote: it has 4 cyl corolla motor
I believe that the NHW11s have an Echo motor, but they do something with the intake valve timing to make it Atkinson cycle.
I would love to be able to remove all electrical and use it as a normal car( it (If possible)
That would be difficult, since the transmission is electric (done with the two motors). There is no multi-speed gearbox in there.
or remove the combustion motor and only use batteries
The battery that is there is way too small to be useful by itself. You can augment it with lead acid or a lithium iron pack, but you would need to figure out how to drive the inverter without the engine there, and how to modify the planetary gear to transmit power from the two motors sensibly when there is no engine there.
My Dr told me I need a hobby this would be one that I could manage and would interest me
I think that getting it going as a hybrid might be a good first stage. You will need either refurbished hybrid battery cells (available from a company in New Zealand, or from individuals like Mr Mik at the Gold Coast), or a new, possibly higher capacity hybrid pack. The latter has its problems, since NiMH cells have a different voltage than lithium or lead acid, and the Prius hybrid ECU will want to manage the voltage of strings of 6 cells (7.2 V nominal).

Once you have that in place, the car will be drivable as a standard hybrid. You could then add a charger to make it a plug-in hybrid. Note: NiMH is notoriously difficult to charge safely; there have been fires! But if you've replaced the NiMH with LiFePO4, then charging is quite safe.

If after all that you want more of a challenge, you could try to figure out how to trick the hybrid system into letting you have a higher all-electric speed.

So first you need to do a fair bit of reading. I'd start here:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Mk1_Prius/
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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by coulomb » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 02:48

One of the first things to find out is the exact model. "First edition" could mean NHW10 or NHW11. The former has 40 cylindrical 7.2 V modules for 288 V, and the latter has 38 Prismatic modules for 273.6 V nominal.

So that makes a big difference if you want to replace the existing NiMH cells. It makes less of a difference if you are wanting to replace the NiMH battery with a lithium or lead acid pack, but you still have to provide the 38 or 40 connections to the Prius' hybrid ECU (or is it 19 or 20; they might monitor cell voltages in pairs of modules, or 14.4 V nominal per monitored battery section).

The compliance plate with the model number may be in one of the front door sills, or under the bonnet as you'd expect.

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 02:54

Hi Coulomb
So the car has 2 El drive motors (Front wheel?) any idea what total voltage are the motors and batteries?? So the Corolla actually is only a generator-- Correct? Do you think that the car is too heavy to make her All electric only?
One idea we can dismiss is to use the Corolla drive only since there is no gearbox. there are only 2 options as you suggested To get the battery and make it a goes as original or remove the motor ETC.. and install separate batteries The controller has to be operational with or without the Corolla
I believe the max distance for the old prius was 30Km on batteries.. From observation the battery pack is relatively small so if it coulod be increased 3x4 fold one can achieve some 100Km drive plus

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 03:20

Thank you for your welcome-Nice to be back if my brain can operate same or better as before ha ha.
The hybrid system is the problem and always has, By disconnecting the Corolla Charger and connecting to battery bank locically most should work oK? I am convinced but it sounds too easy and it may not be that at all... The load from the battery pack must be the same voltage as Original prius pack
Disconnecting the corolla charger and connecting it to 240v Plug in charger and charge the New battery pack whatever type that would have matched the prius battery capacity plus. One catch does it have a controller as we know them?

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 04:02

I will have more information tomorrow before i pick up the car. If the conversion is easy then good.. if not then it will become 2x cu ft steel block..

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 04:40

Image

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 04:53


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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by coulomb » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 13:27

Goombi wrote: Image

Unfortunately, I don't think it's easy to tell the NHW10 from the NHW11 from the engine bay. The main differences are in the hybrid battery pack, and presumably the software in the hybrid ECU.
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Post by coulomb » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 13:51

Goombi wrote: So the car has 2 Electric drive motors (Front wheel) ?
Yes, that's right. In simple terms, one is for torque, one is for speed.
any idea what total voltage are the motors and batteries??
This at least is well known. From http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... 079#Models (note: this is an old version of the page; they removed this important information months ago)


Feature           Model code
                  NHW10   NHW11 NHW20
Body style        4 Door 4 Door Hatchback
First sales       1997      2000      2003
Battery
Modules        40      38      28
Cells per module 6      6      6
Total cells     240      228      168
Volts per cell 1.2      1.2      1.2
Total volts (nom) 288 273.6      201.6
Capacity Ah     6.0      6.5      6.5
Capacity Wh     1728      1778.4      1310.4
Weight kg       57      50      45
Petrol Engine
Power kW        43      52      57
Max rpm        4000      4500      5000
Electric Motor
Operating Voltage 288 273      500
Power kW        30      33      50
Combined Power kW ?      73      82

The NHW20 was the first to use a DC/DC booster, so on those models and later, the motor voltage is higher than the pack voltage. The DC/DC converter is bidirectional, so that regeneration from the motors gets back as energy into the lower voltage pack.
So the Corolla actually is only a generator-- Correct?
No, this is a parallel hybrid. The electric motors are a bit weak for running the car on their own, especially the early versions. So when accelerating, power comes from both the engine and the electric motors. I believe that the motor figures given above are for one motor only, the torque motor, which connects to the wheels via the differential. So there is another ~ 15 kW available from the other motor if used in electric-only mode.
Do you think that the car is too heavy to make her All electric only?
That's difficult to say. With only the 30 kW (peak) motor, it will be a very weak all electric car. With the other 15 kW (peak) motor contributing power, so a total of 45 kW peak, it might be doable, but there are problems with the RPM limits of the motors.

See my topic How to convert a hybrid for some thoughts on this.

I also noticed this topic in my search: Prius NHW20 transaxle; while it's about the NHW20 model, the transaxle is actually quite similar to the NHW10/11 models.
I believe the max distance for the old prius was 30Km on batteries..
They would not get that sort of distance on the original hybrid battery pack alone. It's only a tiny pack by EV standards, and they only use from 40% to 80% SOC, so that's only 40% of what little is there; I seem to recall it comes to about 1.2 kWh. All electric cuts out at a quite low speed, around 40 km/h; at that point the engine would come on anyway. So it's not a practical EV at all with the existing hybrid pack.
From observation the battery pack is relatively small so if it could be increased 3x4 fold one can achieve some 100Km drive plus

It would need to be increased very substantially to achieve 100 km.
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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by bga » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 15:23

Hor what it's worth,

I inquired about a battery pack for a prius a year or so ago. Toyota said a bit over $3K, but there are very few in stock and I didn't ask about age.
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Post by Johny » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 15:59

Eugene, you might want to have a look at this site to get an idea of how the Prius works.
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 20:47

Hi All I Am an prius hybrid expert now. This topic was going to go for long time until I remove all the components from the car -inspect and learn how it all works. (johny's) submission of the planetary drive in an excellent concept and well thought of. but my conclussion is now final.. "Do not touch" To restore the NHW10 will cost some 5kwith a new pack of batteries not knowing if all the electrics are ok.
1, My original thought was to remove the motor and convert the prius to electric car only The prius electricals are not suitable for EV car only
The motor is joined together with the transmission to drive the front wheels. This is a concept best to leaver alone.
2, second thought was to remove all the electrics and only use the corolla motor and transmission and removing the el. motors from inside the casing I am now certain that it will also not work or be feasible.
3, for 4k one can buy a car that is actually better then the prius.
Conclussion japanese manufactureres have not left us EV builders with any simple advantage. I congratulate them for protecting their own product No wander toyota coned the gov for 40 Mil$ because no one actually knows much about this prius--I call "Unnecessary" vehicle

I spent hours last night in search for all prius advantages and i have not found one.. Cheers

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Toyota Hybrid first edition what can be done

Post by Goombi » Fri, 11 Nov 2011, 22:51

This prius has been condemned it will possibly be shipped back to japan in a form 0f One qubic meter block---- R.I.P.


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Post by coulomb » Sat, 12 Nov 2011, 04:36

Goombi wrote: This prius has been condemned it will possibly be shipped back to Japan in a form 0f One qubic meter block---- R.I.P.

That seems like a waste of resources to me. Surely there would be someone who would take it off your hands and even pay you a few hundred for it, replace the pack with refurbished cells, and sell it for a few thousand dollars.

For what it's worth, I think that the Prius and similar hybrids have their place. I own a NHW20. I see that the latest diesel vehicles get even better economy than the Prius, if their figures can be believed. But it's nice to drive a car that gets 800 km+ from a tank of petrol, and doesn't burn fuel when stopped at traffic lights.
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Post by Goombi » Sat, 12 Nov 2011, 05:59

See private message Coulomb...As far as I am concerned there is only one hybrid and that is one without combustion motor. with solar charged batteries through converter
EV that need not go any furter then 80Km at top speed 80Km/h Ideal economy Idealy low priced and practical DC only AC to DC is un-necessarily complicated and risky without added benefits-- Simplicity is my favourite mode
I have been observing that most new EV's cars are doing well with simplicity and distances and speeds i have mentioned above.
the slow development in battery research be it restricted by Oil companies Or Motor companies. New battery product is not going to the market thus has left electric cars in limbo. You will see the speed of ev cars manufacturing as soon as we have genuine shortage of oil(not manipulated by oil companies) Cheers Eugen

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Post by Simon » Sat, 12 Nov 2011, 20:32

Goombi wrote: This prius has been condemned it will possibly be shipped back to japan in a form 0f One qubic meter block---- R.I.P.

Goombie the Prius you have is most likely a NHW10. Even if it is not running the battery pack will likely have some good cells. At least rescue the battery pack before you crush it!

I have 2 NHW10's see my thread here:Simons 1999 Prius
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Post by Goombi » Sat, 12 Nov 2011, 21:03

if anyone wants a prius Complete the body unmarked Extra good condition light green silver tyres reasonable no rust. Its all there even a key. possibly need replacing the monitor unless it comes on one does not know if it works. Fully omplete nothing was removed.
Anyone interested: Gympie Auto Wreckers 99 Noosa Road Gympie Qld Phone 07 54822388 a/h 0409055847 was quoted 400$ take away NHW10 negotiate yourself.
Cheers Eugen

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Post by AMPrentice » Mon, 14 Nov 2011, 03:07

Eugene welcome back!! how is your health?
Deer Park wreckers have a few Prius for wrecking here in victoria, they are well priced parts there if you need anything.
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Post by antiscab » Sat, 19 Nov 2011, 03:01

The NHW10 would probably make for a good plug in prius conversion...

100 x GBS 20Ah cells would fit in place of the old 240 cell nimh battery

a 2000W Elcon charger could charge it

The stock hybrid ECU just uses voltage to calculate SOC, no Ah counting or anything like that.

pack voltage is measured in 20 sub packs
If The voltage between highest and lowest is more than 1.2V different, it turtles and the petrol engine does all the work.

The Prius only tries to hold ~330V on the HV battery.

That would suggest a per cell BMS is not necessary, as the stock prius can already measure voltage at every 5 cells

100 x GBS 20Ah cells is ~$3500
ELcon is ~$750
a per cell BMS is ~$1400, but may not be necessary

I own a NHW10 aswell, still trying to decide if I want to spend the money

An NHW10 Prius will do EV only mode up to 100kmh when the Battery voltage is high enough.
Not as efficient above 60kmh, as the petrol engine still needs to be spinning (no fuel or spark applied)

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 19 Nov 2011, 17:27

antiscab wrote: The NHW10 would probably make for a good plug in Prius conversion...

Suziauto (Graeme Manietta of Suzi Auto Services) picked up this car for (I think) $400 plus carriage. He figures he can't go wrong at the price; you'd have to gain $1000 worth of experience from tinkering with one of these.
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 19 Nov 2011, 17:41

antiscab wrote: An NHW10 Prius will do EV only mode up to 100kmh when the Battery voltage is high enough.
Not as efficient above 60kmh, as the petrol engine still needs to be spinning (no fuel or spark applied)

Matt, do you know if you have to do anything more than spoofing of SOC? Actually, if you run the pack rather high in voltage, maybe you don't even need to do that... that would make the NHW10 a lot more attractive as a mostly-EV plug-in hybrid.
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Post by KDRYAN » Sat, 19 Nov 2011, 19:27

I have a NHW20 Prius drive train less the ICE, I have dismantled and studied the unit and on what I can make out the ICE is in no way connected directly to the differential drive. It appears the ICE drives a generator/motor only. Has anyone else dismantled / studied one?
From the above posts, it suggests that the ICE actually directly powers the vehicle.

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Post by Electrocycle » Sat, 19 Nov 2011, 21:02

The ICE can't drive the wheels without the MGUs working, because it forms part of the gearing (torque split device) - but ICE torque does get transferred directly to the wheels in a way.
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 19 Nov 2011, 22:31

KDRYAN wrote: ... on what I can make out the ICE is in no way connected directly to the differential drive. It appears the ICE drives a generator/motor only. Has anyone else dismantled / studied one?

The ICE drives the planetary carrier, though I haven't dismantled one myself yet. It possibly does that through a hollow shaft or similar, so it may be deceptive.

It's not a direct connection to the wheels; if you don't power MG1, powering the ICE will merely spin MG1 (forwards, according to the usual conventions.) So you have to apply a torque to MG1 to stop it spinning before you can get power from the ICE to the wheels.


antiscab wrote: Not as efficient above 60 km/h, as the petrol engine still needs to be spinning (no fuel or spark applied)

I read somewhere that the power loss due to spinning the ICE is 4 kW (last post on this Ecomodder page. That's a fair bit more than air conditioning. It's 80% of the peak power you can transfer from an Enginer system (perhaps the earlier DC/DCs were smaller, perhaps 3 kW)... no wonder they don't attempt high speed all-electric drive with Enginer PHEV systems!

Does anyone know if this figure would be accurate? Would it always be that high, or would it depend on engine RPM, oil temperature, tightness of piston ring seals, and so on?
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