CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
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7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Fri, 31 Dec 2010, 21:48

After posting about Crewman Cross 8 or 6's on ebay finds I thought I'd open up discussion to get peoples thoughts on Larger EV's and a conversion of a Crewman CrossX.

I realise they are heavy and for simple personal transport they are ridiculously too heavy. But there are useful purposes to them so discussing the options is worth while.

Here are some cheap CrossX cars off ebay for example.
7circle wrote: .....
Or a Crewman Cross 8 in black at $17k
2004 VY Series 2 Holden Crewman Cross 8 Black V8 Ute


Or Crewman Cross 6 with options at $19k
2006 Holden Crewman VZ MY06 Cross 6 White 4sp A
Image
With white bull bar fit.
Image


Or on Carsales has 2004 HOLDEN CREWMAN VY II CROSS 8
$17,990*

Image

The Crewman Cross 8 and 6 have the same AWD as the Ford Territory.

I was imagining 3 ACIM motors up front under the hood.
One Into the transmission.
Two for the Front axles.

So the regen on the Front and Can be controlled.
They can be geared for Lower RPM so high braking torque can be achieved and AWD in muddy conditions can be controlled.
If rear dif is LSD you have a very good slippery control system with seperate torque control on the front.



I thought a comparison of fuel use of a Load Carrying Crew Cab would be worth considering.

After owning a Triton for a while and getting LPG on it and seeing the difference in Fuel With Load and Without and Highway use, I thought the Crewman would be a better option. As it has lower Aero Drag and is a locally built car.

The Triton Conversion By "engaging nature" is a good example and a good comparison.

So one approach woul dbe just replace the V8 or V6 with a 55kW Continous motor that has a peak power of 150kW. Thats going to provide plenty of performance.

Now is the theory that the Direct Drive to rear wheels and controller going to give a 80% effiecient Battery to Wheel performance.

So Driving at less than 70km/h going to dominate the use of power by just the acceleration of the Mass of the car (with all the batteries and gear in the tray) So a 30kWh batterry will being used at 200Wh/km give 80% of 30kWh.
So will a range of 30kWh/200Wh/km = 150km be possible.
A 30kWh battery will cost at $0.40/wh x 30k = $12000 buks.
Could the battery be 3 packs of 10kWh.

So what is the Fuel use of the pertrol versions.

Auto speed has a picture of the AWD setup in the article Holden Crewman Cross 8 Test
Image

They also say about the Fuel use:
And what of fuel consumption, you ask?

During our test, we recorded an alarming 19 litres per 100km in urban/city conditions and around 17 litres of unleaded with open-road driving. It’s fair to say the Cross 8 has an insatiable thirst. And note that Holden really needs to upgrade the existing 68 litre fuel tank capacity: this is a severe limitation for long distance touring.
The other article on the V6 version says 20% less fuel use than the Cross8.

So what could be achieved with a pure EV conversion.
And would two extra small motors on the front axle be of benefit.

7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Fri, 31 Dec 2010, 21:50

If you know anyone that has a Commodore ute of some sort two door or Crewman or Cross6/8 etc I would like to know what their fuel usage is.

Cheers for New years

7C

Goombi
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by Goombi » Fri, 31 Dec 2010, 23:20

wait when i have a few drinks for New Year.
but what you trying to do is against my EV conversion principles --I pass
Eugen

7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 00:09

I want to prove that EV's in heavier vehicles are just as needed and may provide a greater benefit in C02 reductions.

If the C02 and other footprint issues of a large Work ute can be addressed.

This may need hybrid ethanol/bio-diesel gas turbine for greater than 150km range. But prefereably not.

I appreciate the issues of taking a "Muscle" style car when many people don't need it.

The Phoenix car company is tackling the SUV market.
There are many Californian EV Utes/Trucks in north America.

So if you want to outline your EV principles I am happy to consider them.

I used to drive my partners Subaru 1800 Sports wagon and was very cramped.
I am 100kg 6 foot guy but have found my 323 Astina and current 1998 Kia Sportage more comfortable.

So if the Crewman can get arround on less than 200Wh/km then I think it would be fine. I would say 200Wh/km is my target with Noload. The tech features of triple motors and such are extra features that make it more efficient. If they don't reduce the wh/km then there is little point to them. I am a "believer in regen" is valuable extra that is expensive but can pay for its self. I gues I'm also a "believer of AWD" as the traction control is a valuable safety feature.

All new cars will need ESC (Electronic Stability Control - The ESCape button feeature, not to be confused with an ejector seat button in a helicopter Image )

The Lexus and Porsche hybrids are examples and many others like the RAV EV and such.

So time to collect more info.
If you have seen a research paper on Light Truck EV evaluation please post the link.

7C
Enjoy your parties and spread a little tenderness ...§

Goombi
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by Goombi » Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 00:21

Sorry mate i do not like to engage myself in your dreams and also I don't wish to give you falls impression of support. I do not believe in your conversion your Regen enthusiasm and all that jazz.---sorry

antiscab
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by antiscab » Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 21:43

7circle wrote:
So if the Crewman can get arround on less than 200Wh/km then I think it would be fine. I would say 200Wh/km is my target with Noload.


That may be possible at low speeds (less than 60kmh) and no stops or starts.

they actual energy usage is more likely to be around 350Wh/km at the battery.

You won't really know until its built.

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Sun, 02 Jan 2011, 07:35

The Commodore fuel economy in highway use is listed at less than 7L/100km
So compared to many cars the issue body size is not the problem.
Comparing a SUV or Hilux/Triton/Bravo/Colarado etc the Crewman I was thinking would have less areo loss at highway speeds.

I'm really interested to know the Drag losses.
A crewman is a long car with a Tray that can catch the wind.
They often have covers. But a sloped cover with venison blind layers to allow rear viewing could be designed to look okay maybe stylish and futuristic.
It would need to be practical.

Vehicle weight and carrying capacity info:
# Crewman Cross 6 kerb mass (kg): 1904
# Crewman Cross 6 Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) (kg): 2685
# Crewman Cross 8 kerb mass (kg): 1942
# Crewman Cross 8 Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) (kg): 2685

The tyre and bearing losses of a rolling a car are not huge issues.

Regarding the gearbox. I would be quite happy tossing the gearbox and having a motor to the rear diff and twin motors for the front wheels.

But I need to evaluate the torque drop if the motor has to work at same ratio and the benefit of 4 gears on low RPM efficiency.

Thanks Mat for your thoughts on Wh/km. Id say I agree and that stop start traffic could be a killer, but no more of an issue than any other EV.

If the Motor Controllers are capable of high current 3 x 600A at 300V battery pack voltage. Then there is plenty of capability for three induction motors to generate plenty of regen. With vehicle mass of 2.5tonne the braking energy from 60km/h in 4seconds is (Ek = 1/2MV^2 = 0.5x2500x(60/3.6)^2 = 347kJ)
Or 87kW for 4seconds. So if you can regen 100kW into the batteries at 50% efficiency that would keep the and if acceleration was 75% efficient from 0-60km in 8seconds then a start stop cycle would loose (347 x 0.5 + 347 x 0.75 = 1.25 x 347kJ = 433kJ.
Sorry for all the theory, these numbers are plucked from air. Just guesstimates.

If a 30kWh LiFe pack is $12k and the motors are 3x15kw/50kWpk cost $9k and controllers cost 3x$6k for $18k of off the shelf gear that is lookin like a pretty expensive project at $39k for the big EV components.

But how much does a crewman cost in fuel. If they are getting 20L/100km (around town in start-stop) when carrying a reasonable load thats 20L/100km x 20000km/yr/100km x $1.4/L for $5.6k/yr of fuel for 20k/year. Some work cars do much more than 20k/yr.

This post on http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/vz- ... post138286] Just Commodores - VZ ... mentions some better than expected fuel economy figures. Some people complain of very poor economy when pulling a trailer.

If the car is only getting 300Wh/km then a 30kW/h pack will only go 100km.
The 200Wh figure is for an unloaded target. If the car is taking more than that with easy smooth driving then Crewman is acting like an umbrella.

Happy nooky new years to yas all

7C

7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Sun, 02 Jan 2011, 14:04

After looking at Malcolm's Hilux evalbum page he quotes 240Wh/km for a hilly area.

His Hilux weighs
3,417 Pounds (1,553 Kilograms)
Before conversion 1250kg
After conversion 1550kg
This to me is very encouraging.

a4x4kiwi
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by a4x4kiwi » Sun, 02 Jan 2011, 18:04

Top speed is only 70km/hr so higher speed means exponentially more loss due to wind resistance.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

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Goombi
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by Goombi » Mon, 03 Jan 2011, 01:16

7C. you will need 30 Kw motor for 2 tonne vehicle.. Hmm

7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Mon, 03 Jan 2011, 01:59

"If a 30kWh LiFe pack is $12k and the motors are 3x15kw/50kWpk cost $9k and controllers cost 3x$6k for $18k of off the shelf gear that is lookin like a pretty expensive project at $39k for the big EV components. "

I was thinking of plenty of power so 15 x 3 for 45kW Continuous at high temperatures. And 3 x 50kW Peak for 150kW peak. These are gesstimates.
gommbi wrote:7C. you will need 30 Kw motor for 2 tonne vehicle.. Hmm
Do you have a suggestion Eugen.

Goombi
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by Goombi » Mon, 03 Jan 2011, 02:47

All i can say-- go for your dream.. My suggestion is -go for a 10kw series 96 v Barina Festiva- Charade etc with 140amp/h AGM batteries total cost around 8.000-9,000 ready on the road. and remember what i just said..
Good luck with your project
Cheers Eugen

7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Mon, 03 Jan 2011, 12:49

I think trades people who tow trailers and heavy loads are allowed to use EV's as transport too.

What about trucks, vans, busses, taxis, .....


7circle
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CROSS EV from Crewman CROSS 8 or CROSS 6

Post by 7circle » Mon, 03 Jan 2011, 12:53

a4x4kiwi wrote: Top speed is only 70km/hr so higher speed means exponentially more loss due to wind resistance.


I was thinking the crewman would be lower drag Cd x Area.

By comparing highway fuel use of commodore to a hilux.

Will get some figures.

Hilly areas could be the killer.

Most of Melbourne is flat.

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