Battery EV good news re prices

Post by **marty11** » Sat, 23 Jan 2010, 04:43

Saw this and thought everyone here could smile too.. makes a lot of sense when you read it

newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2010/01/21/the-battery-hopes-for-electric-vehicles-improve/

Its an argument refuting the doomdsayers saying battery power for EV's isnt too good-- this argument picks the others to bits.. and promises lowering of battery prices for ev's..

I have just finished getting bulk supplies of fire alwarm wirless batteries for half price -- took me a year to find the right supplier..

and so I understand the want for better ev battery prices-- a major key to happier ev ownership -regardless of battery technology - better prices can jump start a ot of enthusiasm..

cheers -marty

Post by **antiscab** » Sat, 23 Jan 2010, 11:22

haha, i love it how they go one about how great it will be when batteries cost ~US$400/kwh, when us converters are already paying ~US$350/kwh

Matt

Post by **marty11** » Sat, 23 Jan 2010, 14:07

what do you think they will come down to in the next 12 months.. any ideas? and ...do you ever do "bulk buys" with a few people together?

cheers - Marty

Post by **coulomb** » Sat, 23 Jan 2010, 15:59

marty11 wrote: what do you think they will come down to in the next 12 months.. any ideas?

With the global recovery, my guess is that the price of oil will climb again, putting upward pressure on prices. Already, CALB (formerly Sky Energy) have raised their prices from US$1.10 to US$1.25 per Ah, but that's apparently because they were never comfortable with the initial US$1.10 price anyway.

Also, China may have to revalue its currency.

So unfortunately I don't actually expect much if any price reduction in the next 12 months.

and ...do you ever do "bulk buys" with a few people together

I haven't seen one in Australia yet. The American company EV Components do a moderately regular bulk buy, and have the best prices as a result. The lead time is long, but usually, you have a lot of other things to be going on with when doing an EV conversion. The cells are delivered to your nearest port, and unfortunately there are a lot of costs associated with importing such cells, as well as GST. Getting together with another Australian buyer could help defray the fixed costs of importing.

I'm not associated with EV Components except as a satisfied customer.

Post by **antiscab** » Sat, 23 Jan 2010, 23:46

for the american market evcomponents are definately the best to go for. ideally, if there isn't anyone in your country doing bulk buys

rob mason used to do the Australian bulk buys, the last one came out to AUS$1.62/Ah. EVWorks bring in cells around that price now, but they still wait to combine orders.

bev also do cells around that price, since they always order alot for their EV getz production.

Matt

Post by **Goombi** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 01:18

One offer I had was 0.85c a/h or 1.05 including charger and BMS --USD = 50 batteries

At this stage I do not see any benefit at all buying lithium. Its possibly that I really do not trust them-- when they start dying a slow death its awkward to replace with new ones.. not much trouble with AGM.
And they make them lighter and better and cheaper now all from USA. (Power Sonic)I shall wait a bit longer-- But its everyonese choice..

Post by **woody** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 01:40

The clear advantages of lithium:
size
weight
depth of discharge
low peukert factor
Clear disadvantages:
BMS requirement
upfront cost
Jury still out on:
longevity - Lead acid 400-800 cycles / liFePO4 1000-5000

for me the light weight and long life to pay for the upfront cost make it most suitable for me.

Post by **Goombi** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 03:21

I prefer AGM = my opinion I prefer to pay 2400 for my power I am 73 and I don't care about 1000 charges at full cpacity and 4000 at 50% capacity..and worrying about the lithium longevity and maintenance. Mine will last for 3 years and a bit more Maintenance free. I am happy with my 3 years.
You prefer Lithium = Your Opinion you like to pay 12.000or more for yours 3 t0 12 year life cycle

Simple maths"""""""""
$12,000 you spend for Lithium is a dead loss.
I spend 2.400 and i invest 9600 in term deposit at 6.5 %
in 3 years i will buy new set of batteries and god willing every 3 years again for practically free cost.
This is my philosophy I will allow you to copy my idea with pleassure lol

Post by **Electrocycle** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 03:43

but the lithium gives you longer range, higher performance, and more passenger capacity for those ~12 years.

Post by **lithbattboss** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 03:43

marty11 wrote: I have just finished getting bulk supplies of fire alwarm wirless batteries for half price -- took me a year to find the right supplier..

and so I understand the want for better ev battery prices-- a major key to happier ev ownership -regardless of battery technology - better prices can jump start a ot of enthusiasm..

But it is always the case that if you buy in bulk it costs less (no matter what the product). A lithium battery purchased by a backyard EV converter will always cost far more (up to double the cost) compared to what a large company such as GM, Toyota, etc would pay for an order of a million or more batteries.

Post by **lithbattboss** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 03:56

Goombi wrote: I prefer AGM = my opinion I prefer to pay 2400 for my power I am 73 and I don't care about 1000 charges at full cpacity and 4000 at 50% capacity..and worrying about the lithium longevity and maintenance. Mine will last for 3 years and a bit more Maintenance free. I am happy with my 3 years.
You prefer Lithium = Your Opinion you like to pay 12.000or more for yours 3 t0 12 year life cycle

Simple maths"""""""""
$12,000 you spend for Lithium is a dead loss.
I spend 2.400 and i invest 9600 in term deposit at 6.5 %
in 3 years i will buy new set of batteries and god willing every 3 years again for practically free cost.
This is my philosophy I will allow you to copy my idea with pleassure lol

Yes, as Goombi says it is your choice. You too can have a two seater EV which has unuseable seating capacity for passengers in the rear because the weight of the EV exceeds the registerable GVM as a result of carrying a ton of inefficient, antiquated lead acid batteries that were invented over 100 years ago (along with the horse and cart).

Or you can choose to use lightweight, highly efficient lithium batteries allowing you to have an EV with 5 seats instead of 2 and with batteries which have an actual cost to the owner over the life of the battery of around 70% of the cost of using lead acid batteries.

It is pretty much a no brainer!

Post by **Goombi** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 04:37

Little Boss please ignore my comments --From now

Woody what a good calculation i shall look into it with more precision Thanks..

Post by **antiscab** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 11:55

Goombi wrote:Mine will last for 3 years and a bit more Maintenance free. I am happy with my 3 years.
You prefer Lithium = Your Opinion you like to pay 12.000or more for yours 3 t0 12 year life cycle

Simple maths"""""""""
$12,000 you spend for Lithium is a dead loss.
I spend 2.400 and i invest 9600 in term deposit at 6.5 %
in 3 years i will buy new set of batteries and god willing every 3 years again for practically free cost.

i have yet to see *any* lead acid pack last 3 years of daily service.
the only pack i know of that has lasted more than 12months daily use without a BMS is this mightyboy conversion.

i do know that the 2006 (so ~4 years old) LFP cells in daily use are around 90% of original capacity.

the lithium equivalent of a lead acid 144v100Ah pack costs ~AU$7800.

taking Goombi's term deposit example (this is actually how i decided to use lithium):
the break-even point would be around the 12.5 year mark. assuming the lead acid pack actually lasts 3 years, and ignoring the reduced usability (range) when the lead acid packs are nearing end of service life.

if the lead acid packs last more like 1.5 years (which is the service life i have seen), then this breakeven point is more like 5 years.

if taking reduced usability due to worn out packs into account this reduces the break-even point further.

we will see in the years to come whose approach is better

Matt

Post by **bga** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 19:14

Yes to Lithium,
but think of all those half dead PbSO4 batteries you can atach
to your solar system (planets and all) and use to charge the
EV at night from the sun.

Post by **antiscab** » Mon, 08 Feb 2010, 19:45

the round trip efficiency of lead is quite poor.
~70% if you deep cycle to 80%dod
~50% if you shallow cycle to 30-40%dod.

unless your grid is unreliable, you are far better off putting that electricity on to the grid during the day.
if you are doing it to reduce pollution, this is the best way, as the grid is significantly more carbon intensive during the day (peaker plants).

Matt