Why get an EV?

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
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marcopolo
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Why get an EV?

Post by marcopolo »

Peter C in Canberra wrote: ] The cost is $48K with the 5 year new car warrantee from Hyundai on their bits and 3 years from Blade on their bits. The back seat is retained though perhaps the middle seat belt is removed because the number of occupants is listed as 4, not 5. On the Blade web site there are some second hand, presumably 2 years old, serviced and upgraded with full 3 years warrantee for $35K. So, $35K for a 4 seater second hand Getz, not $55K for a 2 seater second hand as suggested. Peter C.


I stand corrected! I am out of date! The price guide I was supplied with,may not be up to date as it describes the Blade as $48K+ GST. I note the website now states that it is $48k, inc GST. It does not mention on road costs.

Well done Blade! A better vehicle and a price cut! This is indeed progress and a considerable tribute to Blade's founder and staff.

As I said previously, I am a fan of the efforts of Ron Blade and his Electron. The Electron has improved a long way since I last drove one. The incorporation of smaller lithium batteries has apparently allowed the retention of a back seat, if cramped. (well the Hyundai isn't huge to begin with)! My understanding was that Blade sourced gliders from 2 year old ex-rentals. (that was what I meant by 2nd hand). Blade must now be sourcing new gliders, since I see they have been granted a DOTARS certificate.

So do you own one?

Who has bought one?

Vectrix managed to sell 61 units in Australia. 939 short of the targeted YEARLY Australian allocation!

According to the website Blade is hoping to achieve 100 production units per year. That sounds very small if you are GM holden, but is really very significant. My worry is how the Volt will affect the Sales of Blade.

I believe Peter is quite right when he says that the big makers are anxious to not to produce an inferior product to their rivals, just to be first.

I would be interested in what forum members would expect from a commercially made EV, and what price, technical specifications, and performance would motivate a purchase?




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Post by Goombi »

Interesting chinese distance assesment a particullar vehicle will travel 120 km distance Top range: 120km (level ground, 50kph)
the only place i know to be flat for this distance on Nalarbor Plains
and 50 km/h? bit slow?
Peter C in Canberra
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Post by Peter C in Canberra »

marcopolo wrote: So do you own one?
............
I would be interested in what forum members would expect from a commercially made EV, and what price, technical specifications, and performance would motivate a purchase?


No, I don't have a Blade Electron. I have a '91 charade with DC motor, home conversion.

From a commercial BEV:
1) I would expect a range at least to match what I have now (70Km). That could be achieved with the same 13KWh LiFePO4 battery I have but the greater efficiency from a direct drive train (say another 10%), regen (not a big difference in Canberra, but you get it for free with AC, say another 5%), an AC motor (say another 10%).
2) I would want a basic small hatchback design with clever seat folding to get 4 people or just me plus items of furniture. You'd be amazed what you can get into a charade.
3) Acceleration, top speed etc. need only match ordinary modest small cars. My charade does that already so this would not be hard to do.
3) Idiot-proof battery management. The car should refuse to allow any cell to run too low. Similarly, it should automatically and gracefully limit the current according to minimum cell voltages. IE. it will do as much performance as it can safely do with one's foot to the floor and no more.
4) Future proof charging with max. compatibility. IE able to interact with charging stations such as from BetterPlace but also able to plug into an ordinary 10Amp wall socket. Or at least the charger made modular for later upgrade.
5)Simple, clear state of charge meter. Ammeter or amps/speed meter labelled as "efficiency".
6)Mod cons and standard of finish similar to modest, economy cars.
7)Available second-hand a few years old at a cost saving.
8)The upfront price could be significantly more than a similar petrol car if running cost savings are likely to have me back to approximately breaking even over about 10 years.

I have applied similar logic to my conversion. It cost a lot (for me) at $20K but I expect I'll break even or come reasonably close in the long run. That is enough for me. The main motivation is that I can cover the car's energy consumption with purchases of GreenPower.

Peter.
Last edited by Peter C in Canberra on Thu, 11 Mar 2010, 09:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Squiggles »

Peter C in Canberra wrote: The cost is $48K with the 5 year new car warrantee from Hyundai on their bits and 3 years from Blade on their bits.

Peter C.

And Blade don't have the full benefit of mass production and assembly lines, so we know that Hyundai if they wanted to could do it cheaper....I bet they are watching very closely!!
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Post by Thalass »

I agree, Peter C. Though I think the same philosophy can apply to larger vehicles. Sation wagons and the like. I especially like the idea of indications that look like the original manufacturers' instrument cluster. Fuel gauge becomes SOC, speedo is obvious, tacho becomes ammeter (In my case, I'd mark it with numbers (amps in/out), and coloured bands to indicate the efficiency). I prefer it to the old voltmeter velcro'd to the dashboard.
I'll drive an electric vehicle one day.
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Post by acmotor »

marcopolo wrote: But if you could, what price (premium)would you pay to purchase a 4 seater EV, with the same features as its ICE equivelent? (ignoring range, and speed).

I would be interested in what sort of commercially made EV would attract you? What would you pay? What specs would you require to make an EV your only vehicle? What support would you need(charging posts etc)?

I would also be interested to compare that decision with what specifications you would require in a work (light commercial) EV? What premium would you pay over the ICE?

Have you ever thought of buying a Vectrix, Volt, Blade Electron?


Last things first. Vectrix no. I'm not into motor bikes since I was a teenager, particularly step through coffins. Nothing against Vectrix, they are a good EV offering, just bikes are not for me.
Volt ... just another hybrid just with more EV range. I'm against them on principle as already discussed.
Blade Electron, it's just a getz (a well done electric one) but just a getz and I'd not buy the ICE version so its hard to buy a $50k conversion without the fun of doing it yourself.

Today, as in today not next year, I'd buy an imiev for $50k. The first ground up production EV, even more so than tesla. Most other offerings seem to still be showroom shells.

Genuine 100k range and bursts at 100kmph in a real modern EV would suit me fine.

iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !
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Post by Goombi »

Genuine 100k range and bursts at 100kmph in a real modern EV would suit me fine. {quote}
This is a realistic goal and achievable without too much trauma.
a Conversion like this will cost around 15k and you can chose your own type of vehicle.
Auto manufactureres calculate their production costs 3 thirds== 1/3=15k Parts-Motor Kits batteries electricals welding etc(which is what it will cost home conversion) 1/3 for warranty materials assembly development advertising design and tooling Last 1/3 for profit
etc. As you see the true cost is actually only 15k and whats more with a little organisation detail one can make a ev in 2 weeks time
Other advantage as homemade converters --we already have cars that are approved for road travel. If one is happy with 100km distance and occasional burst to 100km?h then even with agm batteries at $7'500 total cost on the road will prove how ineficient auto manufactureres are
This should answer anyones question--- "Why get an EV?"---
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Post by marcopolo »

Peter C in Canberra wrote:

From a commercial BEV:
1) I would expect a range at least to match what I have now (70Km). That could be achieved with the same 13KWh LiFePO4 battery I have but the greater efficiency from a direct drive train (say another 10%), regen (not a big difference in Canberra, but you get it for free with AC, say another 5%), an AC motor (say another 10%).
2) I would want a basic small hatchback design with clever seat folding to get 4 people or just me plus items of furniture. You'd be amazed what you can get into a charade.
3) Acceleration, top speed etc. need only match ordinary modest small cars. My charade does that already so this would not be hard to do.
4) Idiot-proof battery management. The car should refuse to allow any cell to run too low. Similarly, it should automatically and gracefully limit the current according to minimum cell voltages. IE. it will do as much performance as it can safely do with one's foot to the floor and no more.
5) Future proof charging with max. compatibility. IE able to interact with charging stations such as from BetterPlace but also able to plug into an ordinary 10Amp wall socket. Or at least the charger made modular for later upgrade.
6)Simple, clear state of charge meter. Ammeter or amps/speed meter labelled as "efficiency".
7)Mod cons and standard of finish similar to modest, economy cars.
8)Available second-hand a few years old at a cost saving.
9)The upfront price could be significantly more than a similar petrol car if running cost savings are likely to have me back to approximately breaking even over about 10 years.

I have applied similar logic to my conversion. It cost a lot (for me) at $20K but I expect I'll break even or come reasonably close in the long run. That is enough for me. The main motivation is that I can cover the car's energy consumption with purchases of GreenPower,Peter.


I thank everyone for your replies. I think Item 4 is especially interesting. Joe public car buyer wants a simple machine to operate. This was a major problem with Vectrix, the battery maintenance regime limited it's appeal.

I'm not sure that car buyers would want to keep a car 10 years! But I take your point. Still at only 100 klm range, you would need to have a second ICE car for longer journeys. Or some form of Zero emission range extender?

What you require to change from an ICE light 1+ tonne van or truck to an EV version?

Squiggles, I agree. Hyundai must be watching carefully the acceptance and viability of Blade. This is a good deal for Hyundai, all the benefit of an EV experimental program and none of the risk!

ACmotor, I am not so sure about the iMev. Like you, I like the idea of a ground up EV. My main doubt is the viability of Shah Aggassi's Better Place concept. Unlike you, I am not opposed to some form of range extender. The range extender appeals, since it allows the motorist to own only one car.

Goombi, no-one can accuse you of lacking definite views! Where do you come by such amazing facts? Wow, one third of the sticker price is profit for a major Automaker! Hell, I'll rush out and buy shares!
Other advantage as homemade converters --we already have cars that are approved for road travel. If one is happy with 100km distance and occasional burst to 100km?h then even with agm batteries at $7'500 total cost on the road will prove how inefficient auto manufacturer's are
This should answer anyones question--- "Why get an EV?"---

This may come as a shock to you, but not everyone is able (or wants) to race out to their work shop and quickly convert an EV! The future of EV motoring will not be millions of old converted ICE's! If this were the case, the roads would be crowded with EV's. Hobbyist converters, like auto restorers, donate time and resources freely. I love the creativity and versatility of conversion. But I also recognise, that EV conversions, just like Hot Rods, have a limited appeal to the vast majority of people, so I can only speak for my own preferences.

Your costings are interesting for your own requirements. I am not sure that many converters would share your vision of the ultimate EV conversion. But it is not a competition of who's better than who, the whole point of conversions is individual choice, and individual result.

However,for those people who want to buy an EV, either as a work vehicle, or personal transport, the requirements must be very different than the hobbyist converter. These requirements can only be met by a large scale manufacturer.

The views of people like Peter, Acmoter, Squiggles, Matt, and everyone else on the future direction of EV's are very significant, since these are the pioneers of the EV industry.

Major Automakers are not evil sinister organisations with a world domination agenda, but the do suffer from the problems of all large organisations. Too much bureaucracy, conservatism, little empires that will be threatened by change, fear of failure, and narrow sighted management lacking vision, committees of executives who exist to attend meeting to confirm the bleeding obvious.. etc..

Of all the major Auto makers only five have really advanced EV programs, although others are now investing heavily.

The front runners would have to be Ford and Peugeot. But, GM, Hyundai, Nissan/Renault, Mitsubishi, Toyota,Honda, Fiat, VW, are not far behind.

Each Automaker will be closely watching each other to avoid adopting the wrong technology. In this mix will be vehicles from the PRC and other small independents. Some good some bad, but constantly acting as a spur to the giant Automakers.

I think that for me, the answer to "Why get an EV" is simple! It's the Future!



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Post by Goombi »

My last reply to markopolo.
There is no reseasrch New patents now nothing that has not been here 5 yesrs ago what the auto people are doing are turning one item around and upside down to see it it can be altered-- batteries are here   same as 5 years ago no now development motors are here-- no new designs or research electrical and controllers are here the researched ones are braking down the old ones are OK -- So Mr ventriliquist what is new where are the secrets what will move 1 kg of mass faster and longer then it can move it now?-Nothing zero force. There is law of physics   law of mass and there is no perpetum mobile. Regarding corporate profits and runnig any business i feel you ought to go back to school Marko I am feeling some cleaver and cunning disrespect shown towards the people here Why do you bother?
Peter C in Canberra
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Post by Peter C in Canberra »

marcopolo wrote: I'm not sure that car buyers would want to keep a car 10 years! But I take your point. Still at only 100 klm range, you would need to have a second ICE car for longer journeys. Or some form of Zero emission range extender?


I think there are those car buyers who buy a new car every few years and the rest of us who buy those cars and keep them for another decade or two. The former sort pay many thousands per year to always have a nearly new car. Good for them if that is how they want to spend their money! I have always been the latter sort. Occasionally I might have a major repair bill costing a few thousand but even then this approach is much cheaper. My battery converted 91 charade replaced an 86 Honda civic as our town car. It had been bought around 10 years old and sold at 20 years old. Our car to take out of town was a 1988 4WD civic wagon (like a slightly smaller Subaru). It was bought with about 70K on the clock and sold with nearly 300K having had a motor replacement at ~250K (second hand from a 99 civic). It was replaced recently with a 1998 Subaru wagon with 180K on the clock.

Lots of families have two cars, one of which never leaves town. The town-only car is the easiest to make electric. For the car that also goes out of town a plug-in hybrid seems suitable. Those shouldn't be too hard to do either since you can get kits to convert the existing Prius. A liquid fuel range extender add on (perhaps on a bike-rack-like support) would seem reasonably simple to do (IE serial hybrid) but it might be harder to get through approvals for mass sale as a car accessory. I think the car manufacturers are more likely to want it permanently built in or not at all.

Peter.
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Post by marcopolo »

Peter C in Canberra wrote:
I think there are those car buyers who buy a new car every few years and the rest of us who buy those cars and keep them for another decade or two. The former sort pay many thousands per year to always have a nearly new car. Good for them if that is how they want to spend their money! I have always been the latter sort. Occasionally I might have a major repair bill costing a few thousand but even then this approach is much cheaper. My battery converted 91 charade replaced an 86 Honda civic as our town car. It had been bought around 10 years old and sold at 20 years old. Our car to take out of town was a 1988 FWD civic wagon (like a slightly smaller Subaru). It was bought with about 70K on the clock and sold with nearly 300K having had a motor replacement at ~250K (second hand from a 99 civic). It was replaced recently with a 1998 Subaru wagon with 180K on the clock.

Lots of families have two cars, one of which never leaves town. The town-only car is the easiest to make electric. For the car that also goes out of town a plug-in hybrid seems suitable. Those shouldn't be too hard to do either since you can get kits to convert the existing Prius. A liquid fuel range extender add on (perhaps on a bike-rack-like support) would seem reasonably simple to do (IE serial hybrid) but it might be harder to get through approvals for mass sale as a car accessory. I think the car manufacturers are more likely to want it permanently built in or not at all.Peter.
I think your quite right for many families, but not every car owner is purchasing family transport. A growing proportion of Australians are apartment dwellers, and only have garaging for one car. I like the idea of the type of range extender that Ford are developing. As I understand the device uses small amounts of butane to power a mini-turbine that extends battery life by eliminating the peaks in battery consumption by supplementing dramatic increases in power usage. The apparatus is designed to fit into the drive train of the EV light commercial range. The specially made butane canisters can be refuelled by swapping at any outlet. Ford estimate the average replacement would occur twice a year.

While battery technology is still relatively primitive, range extenders (as opposed to Hybrids) appear to be a realistic solution to limited range EV's.

I agree not everyone purchases cars based on emotion. However, many (I suspect most) are hooked on the appeal of new models that match the owners personality.(Or lack thereof). This won't change with the advent of the EV. Top gear will continue, just with electric Porches (a la Boris Johnson) and maybe Tesla's.

I convess to owning a Hybrid Lexus GS 450h. This vehicle satisfies my transport,(and ego) requirements, but I believe the Lexus demonstrates to drivers who would dismiss the Blade Electron, the potential for luxury EV's in the future. I also delight in parking my Vectrix on Melbourne pavements.

We decided to import 6 Ford/Smith light commercial Vans for our Fleet. The decision in invest in these vehicles came after converting a Toyota Hi-ace, and an older Ford Econovan to EV. The Econovan was really just an experiment and not terribly successful, but we applied the lessons learnt with the Hiace and the result was inspirational. (I will post details on the appropriate thread).

I do not possess an engineering or technical background, but fortunatley I have talented staff and friends.

I think each enthusiast converter brings something unique to the development of EV's, and many more conservative people, like me, are beginning to regret mocking guy's like Ron Blade's early efforts.

       
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Post by marcopolo »

Goombi wrote: My last reply to markopolo.
There is no reseasrch New patents now nothing that has not been here 5 yesrs ago what the auto people are doing are turning one item around and upside down to see it it can be altered-- batteries are here   same as 5 years ago no now development motors are here-- no new designs or research electrical and controllers are here the researched ones are braking down the old ones are OK -- So Mr ventriliquist what is new where are the secrets what will move 1 kg of mass faster and longer then it can move it now?-Nothing zero force. There is law of physics   law of mass and there is no perpetum mobile. Regarding corporate profits and runnig any business i feel you ought to go back to school Marko I am feeling some cleaver and cunning disrespect shown towards the people here Why do you bother?
Goodness me! Don't get so upset! I dont think I have been disrespectful to anyone else? Why do you always elect yourself as spokesman?

In fact, I don't really mean to be disrespectful to you. Just because I disagree with some of your more.. ah.. controversial pronoucements, doesn't mean I don't repsect your right to hold whatever opinion you like. You really shouldn't take such umbrage.
"No New Research'! Why would would you make such a preposterous statement if you don't expect ridicule? I would say your statement is terribly disrepectful to all those thousands of researchers, all over the world, striving to improve EV technology!

On the subject of respect, Marco is Italian, Marko is Slavic! you could at least spell my name correctly.
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Post by Squiggles »

It is an interesting point that many people now expect their cars to be replaced every 4 or 5 years. Not so long ago you where the odd one out if you had a new car, people actually noticed. Now they notice if you have an old car (6+ years).
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Post by marcopolo »

Squiggles wrote: It is an interesting point that many people now expect their cars to be replaced every 4 or 5 years. Not so long ago you where the odd one out if you had a new car, people actually noticed. Now they notice if you have an old car (6+ years).


Yes, the growth of a consumer society. Cars like most things have become much more accessible to the average person. Mass manufacture brings down prices. (I'm not sure it adds beneficially to the culture).

The frightening statistic is that by 2030, 1.2 billion extra people will be admitted to the same level of consumer middle class expectations. What strain that will prove on the resource sector is a matter for deep concern, unless technology can keep pace.
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Post by acmotor »

marcopolo wrote:
Major Automakers are not evil sinister organisations with a world domination agenda, .....
Ummm, sorry marco, while much of what you say is well considered, "last shower of rain" comes to mind when you put the big players on a pedestal. As I have said, lots of excuses.

I am still of the opinioin that the big vehicle manufacturers are dead scared of the snowball that is electric transport.

We agree EVs are the future.    Image

The only economical, non complex, enviromnetally responsible range extender is a better battery. I feel it is important that promoters of hybrids realise that and that continuing to deny the enevitable only delays the technology advances toward the required batteries.
A lexus hybrid like a prius is not an economic choice as you well know.
A limited range pure EV on the same platform at half the price could well be, it is just not offered.

Mitsubishi have stated that they will never build a hybrid. I'll buy my next vehicle from them.
iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !
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Post by marcopolo »

acmotor wrote: Ummm, sorry marco, while much of what you say is well considered, "last shower of rain" comes to mind when you put the big players on a pedestal.


It's not a matter of putting them on a pedestal, just that in the end, they are the only ones who have the resources to mass manufacture a really affordable EV. to pay credit where credit is due, the Ford family have supported Smiths for a long time. The first affordable, practical EV's are the Ford/Smith range of light commercials. This has not been easy, when Ford has struggled to survive as a car-maker.
The only economical, non complex, environmentally responsible range extender is a better battery. I feel it is important that promoters of hybrids realise that and that continuing to deny the enevitable only delays the technology advances toward the required batteries.A Lexus hybrid like a prius is not an economic choice as you well know.A limited range pure EV on the same platform at half the price could well be, it is just not offered.
Of course you are quite right, a hybrid is a compromise. But in the absence of a better battery, it's better than nothing. I don't think anyone is denying that Hybrids are only a step to the future. I am the first to admit that a Lexus is not an economic, purist choice! But the technology simply doesn't exist to produce a car that heavy to be powered by a battery. Your argument that such vehicles are unnecessary could also be valid according to certain philosophies. The Puritan will always argue that his viewpoint contains the greater virtue. In some ways, the puritan is right, but humans like choice and opulence.

Not all hybrids are the same! As I have previously said, the concept of an 'environmental' hybrid sports car with a 357 bhp ICE engine, is ridiculous! But to condemn the provision of a minimal emission, range extender to increase the practicality of an essentially EV only vehicle, seems to me, a little fanatically purist and counter-productive to the development of EV transport.
Mitsubishi have stated that they will never build a hybrid. I'll buy my next vehicle from them.


Well, you may soon have your chance. In tonights news, Mitsubishi announced the first of the iMev to arrive in Australia. priced at around, $70k the media claim the iMev has a range of 160 klms and 130 kph on an overnight charge.

The Better World battery swap concept appears to have disappeared in favour of charging posts, and a fast half charge system.

The iMev is quite well priced, and will certainly drop as unit cost savings are found in mass production. Interestingly, our Ford Smith Vans with over twice the carrying capacity have better range, but slightly slower speed. Be interesting to see how iMev copes with the hills of Sydney, and 4 large Australian passengers.

Will I buy one? Yes, but only out of support and the desire to own the first EV. I look forward to the day when an EV can replace my Lexus with the same level of creature comforts.

I really fear for Ron Blade, would you buy a Electron, when for 28% more, you can buy the iMev? It will be interesting to see how the iMev sells against the Volt.
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Post by marcopolo »

[quote="acmotor"] A lexus hybrid is not an economic choice as you well know.A limited range pure EV on the same platform at half the price could well be, it is just not offered.[quote]

Hey, Sorry, to repeat, but I haven't figured out how to edit! I just realised how accurately phophetic your above statement has become! the iMev is exactly half the price of a Lexus GS 450h! (of course, its not the same platform, and certainly not carrying the same weight, but it makes you think..and dream!)
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Post by Squiggles »

marcopolo wrote:

Hey, Sorry, to repeat, but I haven't figured out how to edit! I just realised how accurately phophetic your above statement has become! the iMev is exactly half the price of a Lexus GS 450h! (of course, its not the same platform, and certainly not carrying the same weight, but it makes you think..and dream!)


Your kidding right, $140K for a bleeding Lexus which is just a prettied up toyota with a new badge, and you keep saying the car companies are nice guys Image
I would also suggest that at $70K for the iMev Mitsubishi are not serious about it's future. You can buy 3.5 Lancers for that. Looks to me more like a publicity exercise.
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Post by Squiggles »

marcopolo wrote:

Of course you are quite right, a hybrid is a compromise.


A hybrid is not a compromise, it is a false pretence. They are nothing more in than a political exercise that keeps both the governments and fuel companies happy.

If they where plug in hybrids they might rate as a compromise.
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Post by marcopolo »

Squiggles wrote:
marcopolo wrote: Your kidding right, $140K for a bleeding Lexus which is just a prettied up toyota with a new badge, and you keep saying the car companies are nice guys I would also suggest that at $70K for the iMev Mitsubishi are not serious about it's future. You can buy 3.5 Lancers for that. Looks to me more like a publicity exercise.
Well, that is your opinion. Lexus is made by Toyota, Audi by VW, Bentley by BMW, and so on,... lets face it, you are not a luxury car buyer, nor do you appreciate the difference. thats not wrong, but nor is it a moral virtue!

The same vineyard can produce very different qualities of wine.Appealing to the taste and aspirations, of different people. You may feel that the price is excessive, and you might be right, there is nothing wrong with that, it's your choice. However don't get caught up in self righteousness. It also could be that you just don't appreciate the difference? Who cares, c'ez l'difference!

I don't think it is unfair to say that you do not represent, (nor want to) the all spectrum's of the car buying public, do you?

Car company executive nice or otherwise? Who cares? I buy a product, no one forces me, I have a wide variety to choose from.

$70k for an iMev expensive? Not really! Not when you think that a 1970 GTHO Falcon sold recently for over $1,000,000.This will be an opportunity to own the first passenger (iMev) ground-up built EV available in Australia. Incidentally, I don't want to own one, let alone 3.5 Lancers! Nothing wrong with the Lancer, but not for me!
A hybrid is not a compromise, it is a false pretence. They are nothing more in than a political exercise that keeps both the governments and fuel companies happy. If they where plug in hybrids they might rate as a compromise.


Goodness me, so young and yet so cynical! Automakers make Volume cars for Volume buyers! Until very recently, there wouldn't be 100 people a year, who would consider purchasing an EV! Hybrids,especially Toyota, have served to awaken awareness and move the EV concept into mainstream acceptance.The motivation doesn't matter, the result is important.

Why, in your eagerness to criticise the Automakers,(and heavens knows they deserve criticism), do you never take the time to spare a word of acknowledgement for the efforts of manufactures such as Ford/Smith, humbly working away in the less glamorous area of Light Commercial EV production?

All the 5 main Hybrids will have plug-in versions by the end of next year. So that should appeal to your sense of fair-play!

Mitsubishi, is just the start. The all electric Ford Focus will soon be here, sold in three versions.1) EV, 2)EV+ range extender 3) EV hybrid diesel! Peugeot will release its diesel/electric model. GM's Volt is releasing a totally EV version as a trial marketing exercises. Most car maker will release models over the next 4 years. it will be interesting to see which variety gains public favour and confidence.

Fiat/Chrysler are well.... awaiting Government subsidies! However the new Silvio model, is completely powered by renewable energy, Girl Power! (very expensive, but the ride is worth it!).
Nevilleh
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Real Name: Neville Harlick
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Why get an EV?

Post by Nevilleh »

My, my, some of us do get a bit emotional, don't we!
Interesting reading the posts on this thread and marcopolo is such a reasonable person!
I wouldn't have a Lexus, hybrid or otherwise. But I know a bloke with one (not hybrid) and he's in his eighties. Each to his own.
I have a Jaguar XK 4.2, all aluminium, 4.2 litre V8, goes like a scalded cat (can I say that?) and I love it! Heaps better than the Porsche 996 I had before it and vastly better than the Nissan 350Z I suffered with for about 6 months prior to that. (It was the 2nd one to be registered in NZ). I suppose I am regarded as a money-wasting fool by many, but what the hell, I love cars! And for that reason I have converted a 1988 BMW 318 to electric power and it is my intention to drive it everywhere once I get the replacement controller installed. I didn't do it to save money, I just think an EV is a really neat idea and have done ever since I left uni - about 40 years ago!
I sat down a couple of years ago and tried to catalog all the cars I have ever owned. I gave up at about 80 and I'm still counting. But this is my first electric one. Sure, it has shortcomings. Can't go very far or very fast, have to plan my journeys to make sure I can get there and back and it did cost a bit in both money and time, but when it is running it is really fun to drive and I get a big kick out of having done it all (nearly, anyway) myself.
I'd like to own a Tesla roadster and maybe I will one of these days. The Mitsi might be interesting, but my BMW goes just as well and might be nicer to drive. Who knows?
But there it is, we EV "afficionados" are still a bit of a lunatic fringe as far as the general motoring public is concerned and an electric car ain't gonna be a big seller until it can do 140 kph, travel 400 kms on a charge, recharge in 10 minutes and, because it is really not as good as the ic equivalent, it should be cheaper!

As has been said before, hybrids are at least raising the awareness of the general public as far as electricity is concerned and that has to be a good thing for the future.
Squiggles
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Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

Why get an EV?

Post by Squiggles »

My brother had a Lexus for a while, called it the VET for Very Expensive Toyota, replaced it with an Audi that he really likes. Unlike Audi and Bentley who were once Manufacturers in their own right Lexus is a brand invention of Toyota dreamed up as a marketing tool. No one was going to pay those high prices for a Toyota. Me personally I will never pay more than $40k for any car, hell I would struggle to afford that, my current Golf is the only new car I have ever purchased and I bought my first car in 1976.

Given the choice between iMev at $70K and a Lancer (not my pick by the way) for $21K plus 40,000 litres of fuel I'm sorry to say I would take the lancer cause that fuel will take me 500,000km or about 30 years driving. In pure economic terms you would be nuts to get the iMev even if your dream was to go electric.
antiscab
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Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

Why get an EV?

Post by antiscab »

dont forget the maintenance aspect.

the maintenance can cost as much as the fuel (at least it has for the cars i have owned).

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells
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acmotor
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Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Why get an EV?

Post by acmotor »

marco, honestly, why drive a lexus hybrid ? is it any better than a straight ICE ? What is the towing capacity ?

If I spend $140k on a vehicle, the cost of fuel is really the least of my worries let's be honest. The hybrid gets, what 30% better mileage ?
What are the servicing costs ?

You have instisited that vehicle luxury is important to you and part of the why get an EV question. Does a hybrid help or just help your environmental concious ? It's still a big, heavy, expensive vehicle.
Talking about minority markets in Oz, top end lexus would be one.

The lexus is nice but somehow the Japanese never quite made it into the luxury market. IMHO (I remember the datsun bluebird advertising campaign !!)

Ok, you did acknowledge the temporary blip in history that is hybrid.

All that aside. If you'll buy the first imiev then you have my vote !
The next one will be cheaper for me ! Image
iMiEV MY12     110,230km in pure Electric and loving it !
marcopolo
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Why get an EV?

Post by marcopolo »

Nevilleh wrote: .
I'd like to own a Tesla roadster and maybe I will one of these days. The Mitsi might be interesting, but my BMW goes just as well and might be nicer to drive. Who knows?
But there it is, we EV "afficionados" are still a bit of a lunatic fringe as far as the general motoring public is concerned and an electric car ain't gonna be a big seller until it can do 140 kph, travel 400 kms on a charge, recharge in 10 minutes and, because it is really not as good as the ic equivalent, it should be cheaper!
e
As has been said before, hybrids are at least raising the awareness of the general public as far as electricity is concerned and that has to be a good thing for the future.


Ah, the romantic pleasure of a Jaguar! I own a pampered 1966, Mark 11 Coomes special, with a 4.2 E-Type engine. Impractical, but a delightful work of art! You don't have to be 80 to own a Lexus! But, I know what you mean, it's not a car I would have bought when I wore a younger mans clothes! On the other hand it is an extremely well made, high quality, trouble free, no fuss, luxury car, much cheaper than the equivelent Mercedes, and the Hybrid give a taste of EV motoring. But, the romantic in me can't wait to see the, just announced, all new XJ Jaguar!


I share your delight in the smug feeling of sailing past petrol stations, riding on electrons! The era of the EV is upon us! You are absolutely right when you say that widespread EV personal transport success, will only come when the EV can compete on more or less equal terms with an ICE equivilent!

This is why I have great confidence in the light commercial EV. The EV advantage in running costs, easily outweighs the slight range and speed advantage of the rival ICE.

Which model BMW did you convert?
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