Range Extender

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
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EV2Go
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Range Extender

Post by EV2Go »

Excellent suggestion Woody... if weight permits hanging an aero styled backpack on the back of the car would be a great way of doing a range extender without adding additional registration costs.

I still would be inclined to lean towards the idea of adding an additional portable engine linked under the bonnet than trying to add both motor and generator.

Who says it has to go under the bonnet anyway... if it is rear wheel drive you could also make up a sprocket arrangement and chain drive down to the diff.
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Post by EV2Go »

Would something like this provide sufficient power to provide cruise speed for average conversion? http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engine ... spx?pid=47

At 84lbs (37.5kgs) it could be picked up and mounted easy enough.
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Post by Electrocycle »

yeah I think so.

If I ever convert the ute to electric I'll definitely look into a small generator setup that can just drop in the tray for longer trips.
I was thinking a ~10kw engine (single cylinder honda 4 stroke most likely) driving an induction motor as a generator, straight into the battery pack - with some intelligent control of its output.
The whole thing could be about 60-70kg, and not too large (still a bit of a pain to fit in a car without a trailer though)
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Post by Tim »

Reading these posts and the direction some of the thoughts are going in, there are a few things that need to be considered.

Fitting an IC engine to an EV either as an auxiliary source of motive power or to drive a generator that is a permanent fixture or is required to be operating for the vehicle to be driven on-road in the practical sense, would likely be subject to compliance with any applicable emission requirements for the particular vehicle.

If the generator is carried in a trailer, and the power is used to charge the batteries rather than directly power the vehicle, then I expect that any emission requirements would not apply. I know we could start a whole discussion on where the power actually flows, but we don't need to bother in my opinion. If the generator is there to charge the batteries, rather than directly provide motive power, this position is probably justifiable.

With regard to hanging a box on the rear of the vehicle, there are restrictions on how much rear overhang is permitted which is based on the vehicle wheelbase. Measured from the rear axle, the distance to the rear can be 60% of the wheelbase or 3.7m, whichever is the lesser.

I recall the trailer type thing that Johnny mentioned being discussed a few years back... but can't remember the outcome. I think it was designed for a wheelchar or gopher type scooter from memory, and the discussion was about whether or not it was a trailer, and what rules applied, etc.

I'll see if I have any info on it still.
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Post by Tim »

Tim wrote:
I recall the trailer type thing that Johnny mentioned being discussed a few years back... but can't remember the outcome. I think it was designed for a wheelchar or gopher type scooter from memory, and the discussion was about whether or not it was a trailer, and what rules applied, etc.

I'll see if I have any info on it still.


Found it... the "RAL Carrier" for wheelchairs. Some info here.
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Post by EV2Go »

Tim, you raise a good point and it is definitely something that has to be considered. While pushing the car with hacked up car frame made into a trailer might work in the US we need to consider what will pass in Australia.

I don’t believe any factory purchased generator powered arrangement in a trailer is going to cause massive issues as it has its own emission standards it has to meet. Yes putting an auxiliary petrol powered motor into a car even if it is a secondary source will require some emission consideration.

I don’t believe the dimensions of the engine I posted would pose to much of an issue of overhang and I believe could be done quite neatly even if as Electrocycle suggested adding it to the front of the motor shaft.

Horsepower*      30.00
Engine Displacement      810 cc
Number of Cylinders      V-twin
Engine Configuration      Vertical Shaft
Engine Technology      OHV
Dimensions (LxWxH) (inches)      19.1 x 18.7 x 14.3
Weight (lbs)      84.0

If you bolted this motor to the front of the car and had the shaft in line with the motor shaft it would make a very practical range extender maybe add some aero to help pass the air around it...
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Post by Richo »

One info that is missing here is how much fuel does it use?
if you had a petrol motor supplying 10kW continuous for a long trip how much petrol would it use per hour and is the petrol tank large enough to run for say 4 hours?
And how does this compare to a typical vehicle petrol consumption?

I'd be pretty happy with a small aero-trailer.
Also with a small solar panel on it to suppliment the 12V so the eV DC-DC is idle.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Thalass »

The problem with a genset in the boot is that the boot is usually counted as a part of the cabin, so there would be the same dangerous gas issues you have with batteries in the boot. It'd be doable, though, just not as simple as throwing the thing in the back and plugging it in.


For regular cars I think a trailer genset would be the easiest overall, and certainly the simplest to attach when required.


For my own conversion (and other utes, I guess) I lean towards a genset in the tray, for ease of reversing and aerodynamic form - I'm going to have a teardrop-shaped cover over the tray, so if I can lift the genset out when I don't need it the shape of the car would be unaffected.


I'd like to see one of those Long Rangers up close, too. Have a good look at how they did it. Interesting steering system on it, too, to make reversing easy. Also, if I recall correctly, the Long Ranger + Rav4EV is claimed to have better fuel economy than the regular ICE Rav4 (according to what I thought was the official site, but I can't find it anymore)

Last edited by Thalass on Fri, 31 Jul 2009, 09:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by moemoke »

Jstan on this forum has a range extended for his E-Camira which you
can read about here, viewtopic.php?t=1200
in case you missed it
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Post by Julle »

Here is a picture of range extender on a Renault Clio Electrique, it is used when the car is moved to the summerhouse or similar long drives (~135km). It is a 4,2kW honda powered 230V (2*115V) generator.

Image
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Post by Thalass »

Nice. Does 4.2kw provide enough power for unlimited range?
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Post by Johny »

Thalass wrote: Nice. Does 4.2kw provide enough power for unlimited range?
Provided you travel at about 40 to 50km/hr.
Most small/mid sized conversions use about 5 to 6kw to maintain 60km/hr.
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Post by woody »

Hey Julle!

Welcome!

That's a very nice setup. How does it attach/detatch? One person operation?
Does it just drive your pack or go via a charger?

Cheers,
Woody
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Post by woody »

For Australia, how far do you drive in a day?
Probably the biggest drive people regularly do in one day is Darwin to Alice, about 1500km @ 130kph.
(the road toll / fatality rate has gone up since they put in the 130kph limit)
Ignoring megatrips like that, the rest of us possibly go to the ski fields or the coast and back (600km each way?) once or twice a year unless you have a distant summerhouse. Most "big" trips would be 400km or so.
I guess if your range is only 50km at freeway speed, the difference between extending it to 400 and 1400km is only a few kW anyway.

Any more ideas:
engines:
ride-on lawnmower
go-kart / generator
gas turbine
original ICE (+ wood gas)
motorbike (postie / scooter / trail / race)
diesel (+ vegie oil)
rotary

"generators"
AC induction + vfd
rewound (truck) alternator(s)
(3 phase) genset
RC heli motor(s) + diodes

Considerations
efficiency
light weight
price
small size
reliability
noise (quantity + quality)
remote / electric / manual starting
vibration/shock tolerance
safety (moving parts / electrical / fuel)

please add any you can think of



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Post by EV2Go »

Julle wrote: Here is a picture of range extender on a Renault Clio Electrique, it is used when the car is moved to the summerhouse or similar long drives (~135km). It is a 4,2kW honda powered 230V (2*115V) generator.

Image


That’s more like what I had in mind, something that can get you beyond the normal range of batteries, but not something to do an around Australia trip with. Guessing even with the limited output that should supplement a full battery pack nicely. Not being a trailer it saves on rego costs for those “occasional” trips.
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Post by Julle »

woody wrote: Hey Julle!

Welcome!

That's a very nice setup. How does it attach/detatch? One person operation?
Does it just drive your pack or go via a charger?

Cheers,
Woody
Thanks for warm welcome!

The range extender is normaly stored on a cart and "slides" on to the cars towbar using two pins to secure it, an easy one person operation.

The weight is ~55kg and I would not recommend anything more, Clio electrique is already "funny" to drive during winter.

Charging is done directly to the battery (114V Ni/Cd) and two circuitbreakers/fuses for security, actually it is connected in the front to enable UCL (car computer) to calculate energy and remaining distance.

Regards
Julle

In another topic I will tell you more about how we convert Mercedes A-klass to electric, now first car has been working for almost a year and next 3 cars has been prepared for "electrification". Of course only industrial parts is used.
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Post by EV2Go »

Hi Julie, do you know the weight of just the motor seperately? trying to calculate the generator weight...
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Post by Lectrickery »

Something like that would fit beautifully under the bonnet of a large EV like an old Toyota Landcruiser or X Ambulance conversion. A diesel Gen could be run on Veg oil & the emissions would be far less than that of the original ICE and being Veg oil would be mostly non toxic.
I figure a system like that would be great and easy to rig up so while you stop for your Driver Reviver break the Gen keeps running while you wait in the Maccas queue and stretch the legs etc.
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Post by Lectrickery »

Just looked up that Pusher Motor Civic conversion. I dont like it at all.
Imagine a malfunction that saw the trailer accelerate too much and jack knife the trailer & EV?
He states:
"I am still working on three upgrades:

1) A direct throttle to allow full and instant control of the pusher engine speed from the EV. One option is to extended throttle cables to the accelerator pedal in the EV or to a twist grip throttle on the parking brake handle. Another is an air throttle system from a rear engine bus. A third option would be a servo from an RC car or perhaps a stepper motor.

2.) Fitting the 3500 watt PowerMite generator.

3.) A remote control function to shift the transmission from drive to neutral and back."

If he is going to use an ICE to push the EV why not buy or build a hybrid or just drive an ICE vehicle. The whole point should be range extension and or battery charging not to actually propel the car by ICE.
Am I right? Sounds like a normal car to me but with alot of extra work involved.
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Post by woody »

I think the point is in a hybrid you're carrying around a lot of stuff all the time which you don't really need. The trailer solution is carry around that stuff only when you need it.

i.e. I only drive more than 100km in a day when I'm going to newcastle or further, so on those days I'd take the trailer, other days I just have a simple, light EV.

Yes I agree the pusher trailer has a lot of potential for badness. A gen trailer should be a lot more passive + road legal.
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Post by Richo »

woody wrote: 5.5kW ABB 112.102 4 pole, 34kg.
Will be 400V Star, 230V delta.
So should peak at 28kW mechanical @ 2500rpm.


The Induction motor sounds about right.
But do you think a petrol motor designed for 10kW cont would handle a 28kW burst load?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by EV2Go »

Thought I might repost it here too since I started this thread to look for ways to travel further distances, not quite what I had in mind but might just squeeze out a few extra klms. Anyone know if 8 Amps @ 169v is a lot? How does that stack up against a typical AC regen?

http://www.northrim.net/wyanders/ev/regeneration.html
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Post by antiscab »

1400w is fairly light on for a car (it would be barely that of engine braking in top gear in an ICE)

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Post by coulomb »

Yes, 1.4 kW is light. I believe that the prius can do some 20 kW (~100 A @ 200-250 VDC).
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Post by EV2Go »

Well if the idea looks ok, what would you substitute in place of the alternator?
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