AEVA Members: your Forum Login (here) is NOT the same as your new AEVA member login.
You do not need to change your existing Forum login.

Lead acid battery selection

How do you store and manage your electricity?
Post Reply
User avatar
Taffy
Groupie
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 15:12
Real Name: Taffy Flynn
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by Taffy »

The time has come to pick a battery as the mounts for box's are part of the chassis construction. (individually constructed vehicle)
I was going AGM only to start with but have decided to include all lead acids in my searches.

Brand          Type      
Excide         DC12V105
Excide         DC12V105
AMP-Tech    D70Z
AMP-Tech    D87L
AMP-Tech    GC2-6V
Trojan      T-105
Trojan      27TMX
Excide      DC6V225

For full details see the attached, i am currently sourceing prices for those i dont have.
Image

Does anyone have any thoughts on the above selection? or have any extra to be added to the list? I listed the Excide twice as i found two wildly different prices between SA and Melbourne. Strangely there supplier looks to be in melbourne... Image

User avatar
Taffy
Groupie
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 15:12
Real Name: Taffy Flynn
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by Taffy »

Quick update, i have recieved a quote for the AMP-Tech's.

D70Z $190+GST; Bulk (12) - $139+GST
D87L $210+GST; Bulk (12) - $157+GST
GC2 $220 +GST; Bulk (20) - $170+GST

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by a4x4kiwi »

Also check Greensaver http://www.greensaver.cn/en/Product/Pro ... roductID=9

Even tho you need to import a pallet of them, they work out quite cheap per unit. Of course if you need local support, you are best to buy local.

The contact there is Hellun Dong [hellun@greensaver.cn]

I found them to be quick and efficient to deal with and had access to their 'scientists' to answer tricky questions via the sales person.

Using a local customs agent, and picking up from the wharf yourself is quite painless.

Cheers. Mal.



Last edited by a4x4kiwi on Mon, 20 Apr 2009, 14:03, edited 1 time in total.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by a4x4kiwi »

Note the capacities are 5 hr rate which should work out very well for Ah/kg.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

antiscab
Senior Member
Posts: 2600
Joined: Mon, 26 Nov 2007, 05:39
Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

Lead acid battery selection

Post by antiscab »

just note that when using floodeds, the limits are:
continuous current, 0.25C
peak current, 1C.

if you need more than this, get AGMs (or silicons as greensaver calls them)

Matt

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

User avatar
Taffy
Groupie
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 15:12
Real Name: Taffy Flynn
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by Taffy »

Thanks for the replies, Mal can i ask how much those 20A batteries costs? Do you have a ball park break down of the costs, postage, customs, duty etc?

I have budgeted about $3,000 for the batteries so that might limit my options. Though i might have saved abit from the controller by DIYing, will wait and see after some more testing is complete.

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by a4x4kiwi »

Hi Taffy, are the details of the costs.

I invited Hellun to respond in this thread, hopefully s?he will.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

User avatar
Taffy
Groupie
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 15:12
Real Name: Taffy Flynn
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by Taffy »

A question for mal, i may have missed it but did you look at there larger batteries? say the 100AH rated batteries?
I am doing abit of googling looking for were people have used there larger batteries. The 100AH retail in the US for US$259

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by a4x4kiwi »

Hi Taffy, I just looked at 20Ah, not the larger ones.

@Hellun, can you provide prices for the SP100-12 100Ah batteries please?
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by a4x4kiwi »

Alice xu wrote: This is Alice xu who is a sales representative in Greensaver Corp and i will follow up Australia Market from now on.

For the SP150-8 and SP100-12, quotations as follows:
Item                          Unit Price                    QTY.
SP150-8                  USD139.71                  18PCS                 
SP100-12               USD143.00                  12PCS             

Would you please help me to ask Taffy about how many pcs batteries in a group work together in his machine ?
@Taffy, Alice's email is alicexu@greensaver.cn
@Alice, you can use the Private Message feature of the forum to contact an someone personally


Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by a4x4kiwi »

Alice, Does this include shipping?
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

User avatar
4Springs
Site Admin
Posts: 627
Joined: Thu, 23 Dec 2010, 01:14
Real Name: Christopher Walkden
Location: Selbourne, TAS

Lead acid battery selection

Post by 4Springs »

Ok, I've been doing research on Lead-Acid batteries, and thought I'd better share my results. This looks like a good place to post them!
Most of the batteries are AGM.
I am confident of the specs, but not the prices. Lots of the prices are from websites, and might change if you actually got a quote.
The three green lines are the three batteries that I considered in the end. They are all quoted prices, delivered to my town, for 12 of them. Prices include GST.
I finally settled on the Century.


Image

Image

It certainly pays to go to the wholesalers. Look for the one in the phone book with the smallest add. I was quoted $650 for the Century battery from their retail place!
Last edited by 4Springs on Thu, 17 Feb 2011, 15:29, edited 1 time in total.

T1 Terry
Senior Member
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu, 30 Sep 2010, 20:11
Real Name: Terry Covill
Location: Mannum SA

Lead acid battery selection

Post by T1 Terry »

This is going to sound like a retrograde step but if you must use lead acid batteries I'd recommend flooded cell batteries. They are high maintenance and messy but they can be cell tested and equalised much easier than AGM batteries. If you have the room use multiple 6v rather than 12v units, one crook cell is the end of a battery so only 2 good cells are thrown away with a 6 volt rather than 5 good cells with a 12v. In a flooded battery if the voltage is held high the acid in the fully charged cells boils like witches cauldron while the lower cells come back up to capacity, as long as the temp is watched nothing more than a bit of lead shedding will occur. In an AGM battery the hydrogen/oxygen recombination section will be working overtime causing even more heat generation, thermal run away happens very quickly and the electrolyte steams off via the vent and that electrolyte can never be replaced causing permanent damage to the affected cells. Something to think about.

T1 Terry
Green but want to learn

antiscab
Senior Member
Posts: 2600
Joined: Mon, 26 Nov 2007, 05:39
Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

Lead acid battery selection

Post by antiscab »

Flooded lead acid can give pretty good service life.

to get that service life you must:
limit continuous discharge to 0.3C
limit acceleration discharge to 1C
do a balancing charge every month or so in the beginning, becoming weekly as pack approaches end of service life.

say your commute is mostly 70-80kmh, and you need to climb a hill or do 100kmh for a few minutes.

smallest battery would be 24 x T105 (~680kg, ~$4k).
that give you ~11kw continuous (enough for 80kmh on the flat),
32kw for accelerating and hill climbing for a couple of minutes,
and in the event of needing significant acceleration you can get ~70kw (with reduced service life if done often).

it also gives you 110Ah @ 144v of usable capacity.

AGM's are usually a better deal if you can't fit enough flooded batteries, as their service life is not as reduced by high continuous current.

Floodeds are better if you can keep the discharge rate down, both for longer service life and higher energy density (but only at low currents)

how cold does it get in Tasmania?

flooded batteries have more thermal mass, and higher losses, so they stay warm more easily.
indeed in warmer climates, that combination means the battery tends to heat up from use during the week, and cool down over the weekend :)

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4045
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by coulomb »

I'm curious as to whether any of the Battery Energy products would be useful in an EV. These are Australian designed and manufactured (in Sydney), and the solar versions come with a 10 year warranty (but you have to consent to a strict maintenance regime, including written logs).

http://www.batteryenergy.com.au

They make batteries designed for various applications; one of these is for the railway industry. The main difference seems to be resistance to shedding of lead due to vibration.

Maybe these are just ridiculously expensive, I wouldn't know, as I'm not looking for lead acid. The Sungel variant is specified at 1200 cycles at 100% DOD, and 1600 cycles at 80% DOD. Railgel is specified at 20 years life @ 25°C; 8 years life at 40°C. So it might be worth a bit more money up front. The Railgels are available at 91 - 516 Ah (@ 5 hr rate) capacity.

[ Edit: I just realised they also make glass floodies: http://www.batteryenergy.com.au/02_enerlyte.htm. The glass cells may not be suitable for EVs, though. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Thu, 17 Feb 2011, 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

T1 Terry
Senior Member
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu, 30 Sep 2010, 20:11
Real Name: Terry Covill
Location: Mannum SA

Lead acid battery selection

Post by T1 Terry »

There is a CSIRO test paper on the battery energy cells, I think it was Dr David Brown that I communicated with there, he was going to send me a more detailed report on these cells but basically they are reported to handle savage discharge and recharge regimes without falling over from an early death. Weight and the Peukert’s factor would be the issues. I looked and am still sort of looking at using them in my bus project.
Here is the email for information purposes




________________________________________

ATT. Dr David Brown
I have been given this contact by a gentleman by the name of Ian who sells your batteries. I am very interested in the CSIRO report regarding the 1,200cycles to 100% discharge in regards to what was actually measured.
Was the battery discharge capacity measure each cycle?
At what rate were the discharge tests C? What rate was the recharge C?
How long did it take till the battery was considered to be at 100% charged again for another test cycle?
What condition were the test batteries in after the 1,200 cycles, what capacity remained?   

Thank you for your time
________________________________________



Thanks for the query. The tests carried out by CSIRO were based on a discharge to a voltage (1.75 or 1.7 volts per cell) which is equivalent to fully discharged. Obviously this capacity was measured every cycle. They were charged with a fixed overcharge (5%) based on the discharge removed, with a voltage of 2.45 vpc. From memory, the discharge rate was about C/4 and the recharge c/6 or c/7 – two cycles were achieved each day. The end point was when the capacity reached 80% of nominal. So the discharge capacity varied throughout the life, increasing after the first few cycles and then going below 100% for the last 20% or so of life.

Regards

Dave Brown

Another contact that may be able to assist is Ian at http://www.powerstream.com.au/.

T1 Terry
Green but want to learn

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 4045
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Lead acid battery selection

Post by coulomb »

coulomb wrote: [ Edit: I just realised they also make glass floodies: http://www.batteryenergy.com.au/02_enerlyte.htm. The glass cells may not be suitable for EVs, though. ]

From an email from Weber:
Weber email wrote:Re the "glass floodies". They are of course not actually glass but a clear polymer, presumably PMMA, otherwise known as "acrylic" or "perspex". And the Enerlyte type are for standby use (your classic Telecom battery). The SunCycle are their deep cycle floodies. I think these would be more bulky and heavy per kWh than EV-specific floodies or the Battery Energy gels.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
4Springs
Site Admin
Posts: 627
Joined: Thu, 23 Dec 2010, 01:14
Real Name: Christopher Walkden
Location: Selbourne, TAS

Lead acid battery selection

Post by 4Springs »

T1 Terry wrote: This is going to sound like a retrograde step but if you must use lead acid batteries I'd recommend flooded cell batteries.

NOW you mention it!
But anyway, there were a few advantages that swayed my thinking:
1. Space - AGMS can be mounted on their sides, which fits my vehicle better.
2. Lower maintenance - I'm unlikely to spend the time doing a lot of testing on my battery, at least after the novelty wears off.
3. DOD characteristics - I'm guessing that I'll be flattening my battery on the odd occasion (by mistake!). I understand that AGMs are better at recovering.
4. Higher discharge currents. It is very hard to tell, but I think I'll be discharging around 0.5-1C, with my 500kg, 140Ah battery. A bigger battery would mean slower discharge rates, but I'm at my weight limit. Matt summed it up nicely.
Points 2 & 3 were also considerations against lithium, although my main concern was the price!
T1 Terry wrote: one crook cell is the end of a battery so only 2 good cells are thrown away with a 6 volt rather than 5 good cells with a 12v.

I was of the understanding that one crook cell was the end of the entire battery. So that all 12 (12V) batteries would need to be disposed of if one collapsed?
T1 Terry wrote:In a flooded battery if the voltage is held high the acid in the fully charged cells boils like witches cauldron while the lower cells come back up to capacity, as long as the temp is watched nothing more than a bit of lead shedding will occur. In an AGM battery the hydrogen/oxygen recombination section will be working overtime causing even more heat generation, thermal run away happens very quickly and the electrolyte steams off via the vent and that electrolyte can never be replaced causing permanent damage to the affected cells.
I'm intending to use the zener balancing method. This is supposed to bypass the extra voltage (during charging) from the fully charged batteries to the others. Not sure how well it works, and of course it only works on the battery level (individual cells may still be overcharged).
antiscab wrote: how cold does it get in Tasmania?
Morning temps are around 0-5°C in Winter, 5-10°C in Summer. Afternoon is around 10-15°C in Winter, 20-25°C in Summer, with the odd more extreme days. I'm inland a bit, so it tends to be colder at night and warmer during the day than on the coast. See the thread here discussing ways to keep my battery warm. I did wonder though how warm they would keep themselves with the charging/discharging currents...

T1 Terry
Senior Member
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu, 30 Sep 2010, 20:11
Real Name: Terry Covill
Location: Mannum SA

Lead acid battery selection

Post by T1 Terry »

I was of the understanding that one crook cell was the end of the entire battery. So that all 12 (12V) batteries would need to be disposed of if one collapsed?
If one “cell” collapses and you catch it in time the rest of the cells that make up the whole battery can be saved. (I.E. It takes 12 12v batteries to make up a 144v battery) This is the real advantage of single cells but lithium is about the only way to do that and still keep the weight down. If a single cell in a 6v battery fails within the big battery pack and is caught soon enough it can be replaced, a waste of 2 good cells but not a lot can be done about that. However, if a single cell fails in a 12v battery within the battery pack then 5 good cells will be wasted when that battery is replaced. It is virtually impossible to balance AGM batteries while charging as a complete pack, this requies individual battery charging. Individual cells will alway go out of balance within any battery whether it be a 6v or within a 144v battery, flooded cells can be balanced to a degree, AGM's can't.
I'm intending to use the zener balancing method
This system will only really work at an individual cell level, not when the cells are combined to make a 6v or 12v battery. Only the terminal voltages would be balanced not the cell voltages and it's the individual cells failing that let the whole system down. a dead battery is usually only the failure of a single cell.
Green but want to learn

antiscab
Senior Member
Posts: 2600
Joined: Mon, 26 Nov 2007, 05:39
Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

Lead acid battery selection

Post by antiscab »

T1 Terry wrote:they are reported to handle savage discharge and recharge regimes without falling over from an early death. Weight and the Peukert’s factor would be the issues.


C/4 = 0.25C is quite far from savage discharge (actually its almost bang on ideal).

is the the lead acid mixed with supercap battery?

in which case peak current can be had without loss of service life (until the caps deplete) but continuous current has always been an issue.

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

T1 Terry
Senior Member
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu, 30 Sep 2010, 20:11
Real Name: Terry Covill
Location: Mannum SA

Lead acid battery selection

Post by T1 Terry »

C/4 = 0.25C is quite far from savage discharge (actually its almost bang on ideal).
Bugga, have I been caught by non consistant quoting of measurement methods again, so C/4 is the capacity divided by 4. They must have been testing very small capacity batteries to to get 2 full discharge cycles @ 0.25C and recharge @ between 0.166C and 0.143C. Haven't had 1st coffee yet so I'm not even going to attempt the maths required for that one Image

T1 Terry

Green but want to learn

Post Reply