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Buying a I-miev

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ZIPPIE11CAR
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Post by ZIPPIE11CAR »

OK.
Can I charge level 2 with the Imiev?

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Post by g4qber »

http://therevproject.com/doc/2012-EVcharging-s.pdf

Here is the tech info from the rev project
Yes and No

level 2 is 32 amps

the imiev charges at 240v. Up to 16 amps. http://www.pluginamerica.org/drivers-se ... e-charging
Last edited by g4qber on Sat, 29 Jun 2013, 21:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ZIPPIE11CAR »

Thanks.

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Post by g4qber »

Hmm I'm not sure now
I need to do more research

Whether 16 amp 240v is level 2

http://evseupgrade.com/

Seems to be
Last edited by g4qber on Sat, 29 Jun 2013, 21:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lismore_Doug »

I have to presage this with the fact that I-am-not-an-expert, but my understanding is this is more applicable to the US, with their 110v power.
In our case, with 240v & 10A standard power outlets, we get reasonable speed charging anyway for overnight or partial charges. Using a 15A circuit means the full approx 3300 watts (limited by the charger) can be used. The current draw is limited by the EVSE, or by the Charger not being able to accept more current.
The standard EVSE is factory limited to from memory 9A, so why it is fitted with a 15A plug is beyond me.
Building an open EVSE means the current can be controlled (up to the charger limit), so getting optimum charging time. Remember the upper limitation is always the car charger, or what the EVSE is set to.
In Japan apparently they have DC chargers that will charge an Imiev in 20 minutes. We do not have that luxury. In fact are our cars fitted with a DC socket? I have not got my car yet to check. (Hope they are: I might be able to use the car battery then to partially power the house.)
The in-built charger limit is one reason why the Leaf now has a 6600W charger.

The Open EVSE for those that do not know is a project here:
<http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/>
It costs time & a bit of construction expertise + about $500. In my case I will order the kit with RTC (real time clock), source a J1772 from EV Power in Australia, the current transformer, & the rest of the bits from my scrap box. This unit has better features than commercial units costing much more money.

regards Doug

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Post by g4qber »

http://charge-amps.com/um-evse

check this out doug
when i bought it it was AUD749, but probably more now that the dollar has gone @#$$

i too am a learner iin these things

i too also have a arrogantish mechanic at phoenix holden wangara
hence i go down to melville holden for testing purposes
eg volt tripping rcds

unfortunately i have service the volt at phoenix due to warranty issues
a blessing in disguise tho cos it is closer to work

odd how an albany couple found melville holden and citimotors holden to be unfriendly, hence they bought their volt from phoenix holden
quite amazing since they phoenix holden is at the furthest holden from them

i am glad that I dont live in america, with their 110v power systems
Last edited by g4qber on Sun, 30 Jun 2013, 05:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by g4qber »

level 2 seems to start at
240v 16A
and also includes 240v 32A as per the uwa elektrobay single phase bollards

bosch level 2 16A EVSE
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_i ... cts_id=165

bosch level 2 32A EVSE
http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_i ... cts_id=166


e-stations model
http://www.e-station.com.au/homecharge.html
Last edited by g4qber on Sun, 30 Jun 2013, 05:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by g4qber »

as mentioned by acmotor previously, cheapest option is the holden EVSE AUD350
max charge 240V 10A

which also has the benefit of coming with a 10A plug.

only thing is that it feels cheap, but it is lightweight.

i can't wait to test out antiscab's openevse on the volt

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Post by acmotor »

Doug, the whole topic of charging is quite interesting and you can now enjoy researching it. Check the topic viewtopic.php?title=holden-volt-chargin ... mps&t=3238
You will note (IMHO) there is good reason for most things.

Yep, the 6.6kW charger in the new Leaf may be useful.... IF you can find a power outlet to suit (32A) !
Actually, needing the extra kWh of the Leaf over the iMiEV may justify the extra charger size. I think in terms of Wh/km. iMiEV is a winner there.
I would imagine that with a Tesla model S 85kWh pack that a big charger with big mains feed would be essential.

There is (at least) one CHAdeMO DC fast charger in Oz at MMAL Adelaide. Not much good to most of us.

The CHAdeMO is not a simple battery connection for safety reasons. There are a series of interlocks including CAN bus communications. However this connector is the future of charging IMHO.
There have been inverters made to go EV battery to 230VAC power and visa versa.
viewtopic.php?title=vehicle-to-grid-for ... 645#p43651
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Post by ZIPPIE11CAR »

Bring on the fast chargers.

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Post by antiscab »

cheapest mostly complete EVSE I have seen yet is the EMW EVSE on kickstarter - $220 for a built one, just add J1772 cable and hardwire

I'm building the open evse atm, but even with the most complete version there's still a bit to buy

Matt
Matt
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2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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Post by g4qber »

http://www.emotorwerks.com/latest-news- ... -website-2

ooh nice, another one to add to my collection, hopefully volt compatible

look at all those capacitors - hmmm
http://emotorwerks.com/tech/electronics

care to donate to the cause?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/107 ... harging-st
Last edited by g4qber on Sun, 30 Jun 2013, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lismore_Doug »

I looked at emotorworks when I was looking at the Charade update to Lipo. Design seems OK, but I was not impressed by the mechanical layout: things like the power wires going through the back panel with no extra sheathing. Not saying one could not improve with your own build, but they are selling completed units that I think could fail due to lack of foresight.

I am impressed by the design of the Open EVSE, & the ancilliary cabling is fairly minor. I work as a Tech in Health, so safety & design reliability is important to me. I have also ridden a motorcycle since Adam was a boy, & know how things break. The best time to fix things is in the design phase, not in the field. The Open EVSE is a Level 2 charger, & can run up to a Gizillion amps if the relays & wiring are changed (+ the software). It will easily cope with an Imiev at full tilt (ie drawing about 3300watts).

One thing I picked up in the discussion was the 240V input power to a flat Imiev battery pack is about 20Kw. This is correct, because the Battery pack is about 330V @ 16Kw, which when reduced to 240v happens to be about 20Kwh! (16x330/240) if a resistive load is assumed.

regards Doug

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Post by coulomb »

Lismore_Doug wrote: One thing I picked up in the discussion was the 240V input power to a flat Imiev battery pack is about 20Kw. This is correct, because the Battery pack is about 330V @ 16Kw, which when reduced to 240v happens to be about 20Kwh! (16x330/240) if a resistive load is assumed.

Err, no. This is junk maths.

The charging rate depends almost entirely on the charger. You can charge a flat (or full) iMiev pack at 0.1 A if you want (or the charger decided to), though that might not be enough to keep the clock running indefinitely after fixed losses.

The battery pack is capable of a lot more than 16 kW; maybe you are being confused by its energy capacity (0% to 80% DOD) is about 16 kWh (21 x 0.8 = 16.8 kWh). [ Edit 3: Actually, it's 16 kWh for 100% DOD. ] The peak motor current is around 50 kW (to produce 47 kW mechanical output).

[ Edit: added "you are being confused by" ]

[ Edit2: The energy needed to charge a flat iMiev pack is about 20 kWh, regardless of the mains voltage. That's because it's a 21 kWh pack, but you never use the last few kWh, and the charger has some losses, so 21 kWh minus a bit plus a bit comes to about 20 kWh. This has nothing to do with the 330 or 240 numbers. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sun, 30 Jun 2013, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

Weber,
I was not talking about the charging rate, but he 240v Kwh to fill a depleted battery, which is about 20Kwh @ 240v.
I understand this has nothing to do with the current the battery can deliver, or the rate at which it can be charged (which we talked about earlier as being restricted by the charger to about 3300 watts).

You my be correct about the storage of the battery pack, but 16Kw is mentioned as the ´ćapacity´ in the specs. The 16Kw IS at 330v, so it will take more 240v Kwh to charge the battery. There are also losses in the charger (~5%).

I would much prefer discussing this over a glass of Red on a miserable day like today. Seeing I am in Lismore, NSW, we may manage that some time.

regards Doug.

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Post by ZIPPIE11CAR »

Sounds like the 2011 onwards models picked up the SCiB batteries also.

Is this correct?

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Post by coulomb »

Lismore_Doug wrote: Weber,
Coulomb, actually. Remember, the handsome one?
I was not talking about the charging rate, but he 240v Kwh to fill a depleted battery, which is about 20Kwh @ 240v.
Ah, then you confused me by saying power (and using units of power) when you meant energy.
You my be correct about the storage of the battery pack, but 16Kw is mentioned as the ´ćapacity´ in the specs.
Oh, not 21 kWh? (Checks...) You are so right, sorry. 16 kWh (sixteen kilowatt-hours) is the full capacity. If the specs stated the capacity in kilowatts (kW) then they are wrong. This mistake is sadly very common.
The 16Kw IS at 330v, so it will take more 240v Kwh to charge the battery.
No, it takes the same energy (essentially, voltage times current times time) at 240 VAC than at 330 VDC. It will need more current at 240 V, hence the same power for the same recharge time (neglecting losses).
I would much prefer discussing this over a glass of Red on a miserable day like today.
Sounds great.
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

I stand corrected: it is 16Kwh, so the charging kwh will be the same + losses.

I will state that I got the figures off the Mr Bushi site: should have looked at the Wikipedia page, which had Kwh. I actually have a problem understanding their figure: 16Kw/88/40= ~4.5v which sounds high for a resting voltage?? (Otherwise the pack capacity might be overstated perhaps?)

regards Doug

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Post by Kimball »

Looks like a lot of things are covered here, the i-MiEV 'fuel gauge' has 16 bars on it and each bar equates to about 1KW, the manual tells you never to use the last 2 bars. However from the specs, at empty you would only be at 80% DOD which is probably the safety factor built in. On another point, the 15amp plug is to ensure you are connected to a dedicated circuit. If there is any other high power device on the 10amp line there is risk of overload, but with a 15amp there is no risk because they should always be one line back to the circuit board and fused appropriately.
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Post by acmotor »

Mitsubishi promotion, carmisadvice web reviews etc are all a little less than technically correct with energy units. That has probably mislead folk. Coulomb will sort that out with some old wine juice. Image

iMiEV battery pack is 88 x 3.7V lithium cells so a nominal 326VDC. These are 50Ah cells so approx 16.3kWh total capacity. Factory has set battery management to access about 16kWh (basically all).
The onboard charger is 3.3kW max and has an efficiency of 95% and power factor >0.97
The charger will accept 90 to 260VAC mains via the J1772 connector.
The J1772 standard specifies a charge current from 6A to 80A though iMiEV will accept a max of 15A.
So at 90VAC this will give 90V x 15A x 0.97pf = 1.3kW max charge rate
It can also run at 90V x 6A x 0.97pf = 524W charge rate ! (slow)

At 230VAC x 15A x .97pf = 3.347kW but limits at 3.3kW nominal max.
Note
At 245VAC x 15A x 0.97pf = 3.56kW but also limits at 3.3kW nominal max.
In this case the current from the mains is more like 13.8A

The standard EVSE 'lunch box' that comes with the iMiEV sets a current limit of just under 10A (mine is 9.41A).

This current is independent of mains voltage.
This is different to most switch mode power supplies or DC-DC converters as they would increase their current pull from the supply if the supply voltage lowers, in order to maintain a constant output power from the supply. This would actually cause problems with compounding drooping mains as the current would increase on a heavily loaded mains circuit. A good reason why EV manufacturers have gone with the likes of J1772 constant current programming.

....and none of that charging current or kW has anything to do with the battery voltage.

The iMiEV charger is just a big tranformer isolated switch mode power supply with fairly wide input voltage range. You can see there is no relationship between battery voltage and mains voltage.
Image
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Post by coulomb »

acmotor wrote: The iMiEV charger is just a big transformer isolated switch mode power supply with fairly wide input voltage range.

Wow, condensers! Initially I didn't even notice the use of that ancient term (it means capacitor, for the young 'uns), since I'm so used to hearing it in my youth (you know, ten years ago, maybe a little more Image ). I suspect the term may have a cultural or region-based life. My Uncle who grew up in Holland used it; maybe the Japanese have somehow inherited it? Or maybe they used a really old Japanese to English dictionary.
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

I am building the Open EVSE for the timer RTC, not so much the charging current (which will be handy anyway). The s/w for the RTC is currently under development (so I am jumping the gun a bit).

One Question: do our cars come fitted with the DC connector? (I havent even seen my car yet: only driven the local one for about 10Kms).

Also has anyone bought the manual on CD/DVD off ebay? Is it the full Service manual?

regards Doug

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Post by acmotor »

That is 3 questions.
Yes and Yes and sort of.

The DC charge CHAdeMO is on the Oz delivered iMiEVs (left hand side). I often open the flap and dream of making the direct connection to battery. Image Won't be long before equipment is available.
You can see the specs at www.chademo.com
One punter commented that the i must use a lot of 'fuel' 'coz it has two tank filling points. Image

I purchased the iMiEV CD off ebay a year ago. The (basic)image in my last post comes from it. It has a place on my desktop.

The full wiring diagrams are there but not schematics of course.Image
It is not the most comprehensive of manuals but there is a lot of information. As coulomb notes it is a translation but if you are not painfully picky Image and appreciate that they know a lot more than we do about EV manufacture then it is worthwhile (even if they can't spell 'battry' or don't regrind imperial spanners Image). The format of CAN bus messages for instance is discussed but, as one would expect with a production item, any more detail than general diagnostics is not offered.

The version of the disk offered is UK HA3W MY11 but seems to be same as our i's.

e.g. part of the DC fast charge wiring...Image
It goes on to show the CHAdeMO connector, pins, cable run etc.

edit: made link work
Last edited by acmotor on Sun, 30 Jun 2013, 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tritium_James »

acmotor wrote:There is (at least) one CHAdeMO DC fast charger in Oz at MMAL Adelaide. Not much good to most of us.
There's one at our office, too! :)

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Post by acmotor »

Tritium_James wrote: ..... There's one at our office, too! :)


Good man ! Image
Do we take that as a vote of confidence in CHAdeMO ?

Any other locations in Oz ?

Re the DC connection circuit. It can be seen that, apart from the 280A fuse in the centre of the battery string, the battery is direct to the outside world with no other limits. (once CHAdeMO handshakes both analogue and CAN digital have been satisfied so ECU will operate the contactors). The hack minded will of course note that it is just a 12V relay coil, externally accessable in wiring loom, that would need to be operated. The sales of CHAdeMO connectors are about to rise. Image
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