What an EVSE provides

How do you store and manage your electricity?
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Johny
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What an EVSE provides

Post by Johny » Mon, 27 May 2013, 23:00

I totally agree bladecar.
I haven't waded into this almost pointless discussion yet but...

When I was showing the Vogue off at Fed. Square a few weeks ago, a few people who had a clearer understanding of what I was driving asked if I needed a special "charger" to charge it. They were relieved when I indicated that I didn't - just a 10 Amps GPO.

I also explained that when we had the Nissan LEAF on trial for three months it drove us CRAZY that we had to play car-shuffle most nights and mornings because the LEAF's charge plug was in the carport of a single driveway. It couldn't easily charge off an extension cord.


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Post by jonescg » Tue, 28 May 2013, 00:00

^^
We found that problem at the Electrikhana. There was a 32 A charge point outside the RAC Driving Centre... with a bloody Mennekes outlet. What does every production EV in Perth use? A J1772. That's OK, we have an EVSE which plugs into a 15 A GPO... Too bad there was no such GPO Image

AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.

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Post by acmotor » Tue, 28 May 2013, 06:03

Doesn't MkV onwards electron use J1772 ? Yep, wash your car while charging. Ross saw the light ?

Mennekes, well that is what happens when you don't go with the flow.

An EVSE plugged into a 15A GPO (that always have devoted circuit) and run at 6,10,15A is the next best thing to a hardwired EVSE going 6,10,15,20,32,...80A.
An EVSE plugged into a 10A GPO run at 6A or 10A is the lowest common denominator. It works, I often use it.
I just happen to consider that the hardwires EVSE is the way of the future.

Jeff, I'm glad you don't reject the advantages of an EVSE, just fear, no, hate, the system that tries to profit from them. OK I can understand that. And by the way, I have no commercial interest in EVSEs. I just recognise their advantages.

Ummmm, Johny, did you plug the leaf in with the 10A inline EVSE that comes with the Leaf and an extention cord ?

I did a little test to add to this 'pointless' Image conversation (or maybe change the direction)

Image

Here is my iMiEV (that I own and drive) charging from its 'portable' 10A EVSE unit at the end of 100m + 20m + 10m + 10m of extention cables.
Total 140m of cable.
These are all 1mmsq '10A' types.
Input voltage is 235V 9.41A 2205W pf 0.99 (arlec power meter)
Output voltage is 203V 9.41A 1864W pf 0.99 (iMiEV will charge down to about 90VAC from the specs)
(the power meter needs more significant digits !)

So some 300W is being lost in the resistance of the extention cables. (16%) Not the end of the world, but a loss none the less.

After charging for an hour, there was a just decernable temperature rise in the 100m loosely coiled cable. Other than that, all is well.

Coming back to a say 20m extention cable, loss would be around 42W in some 2000W (2%). So Johny, you can use an extention cable if you want.
Image
I understand that the we have to find somethings wrong with the Leaf 'coz it is so expensive. Image Myself, I blame the poor battery warranty for not buying one.
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Post by g4qber » Tue, 28 May 2013, 08:26

holden EVSE is the only one that comes with a 10A plug
this is a coup for Holden since sales people say "all you need to do is unplug your bar fridge in you garage and plug in the volt"
Melville Holden even has a sign pointing to 10A dual GPO with words "volt charge point" I shall post this picture one day.

the imiev and leaf "emergency" EVSEs are 10A units with 15 amp plugs on the end, cos Mitsu & Niss appear to encourage owners to install a dedicated EV charging circuit.

interestingly chargepoint australia units were already 30A and future proof while the first units sold by e-station.com.au were 16A.
currently, e-station's units are 32A.

I have been catching up on Nikki Gordon Bloomfield's podcasts "Transport Evolved"
and it seemed that a previous model volt used to have issues with charging using a Leaf EVSE;
the handshaking was out.

even now, the volt is only compatible with e-station's circontrol 16A EVSE, Holden's EVSE and elektrobay Mennekes bollards.
the volt also seems to weed out temperamental RCDs.

the volt is like a Mac; only the best will do as its tolerances are not as wide as PCs.

evseupgrade's and 2x GM volt forum users' solution to tripping GFCI/ RCDs is to charge on circuits that don't have an RCD.
unfortunately this is not possible in australia since RCDs are almost mandatory.

I can see that there may be an issue cos there are 2x RCDs in the circuit
1 in the EVSE and one in the meter box / bollard

another solution mooted is to change the RCD from 15A to 20A

for those people who buy e-stations 32A unit, bunnings have a Master brand combination cable lock that works well with it, however I find it hard to see the numbers. I wish that lockwood would make a cable lock. Master tends to have their numbers in a vertical orientation vs Lockwood's horizontal one.
Last edited by g4qber on Mon, 27 May 2013, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Tue, 28 May 2013, 16:49

What ? unplug the bar fridge ? They'll never sell Volts in Oz then !Image

Temperamental RCDs ? changing 15A to 20A RCDs ? They are all 30mA trip.
Re the Volt tripping RCDs. I think you'll find it is the Volt at fault.
Consider the progress of DVD drives. The first ones had all sorts of trouble with damaged discs, R's and RW's (call it temperamental). Later $25 dual layer DVD everything drives just worked on everything.
Nissan and Mitsubishi got it right, why not GM ?

Volt likeness to a Mac ? I didn't know Mac used dino juice. Image After that you are drawing a long bow.

iMiEV can charge off 10A GPO with full approval of the Brisbane branch.   Image

edit: spelling and clarity
Last edited by acmotor on Tue, 28 May 2013, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jeff Owen » Tue, 28 May 2013, 21:14

acmotor wrote:

Jeff, I'm glad you don't reject the advantages of an EVSE, just fear, no, hate, the system that tries to profit from them. OK I can understand that. And by the way, I have no commercial interest in EVSEs. I just recognise their advantages.

Hey! Where did this come from. At no point in this discussion have I expressed any of the above.

I have answered the questions, how often have I tripped a breaker and how often have I started a fire.

I corrected your inaccurate comments about EVs not being able to charge at Weber's house because he doesn't have an EVSE.

I corrected your clearly inaccurate repeated assertion that a J1772 plug at IP44 is safer in the rain than than a 3 pin plug. E-Station has also made the same erroneous statement so you are not alone.

I cannot see how any of the above would make me the dreadlocked, sandal wearing, anti-establisment, vegetarian hippie that you seem to have implied above. Disclaimer: I am not necessarily denying that I am, but you haven't got any proof.     


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Post by acmotor » Tue, 28 May 2013, 23:20

Yeah sorry Jeff, I got lost with the names vs avatars. It wasn't directed at you. Image

But while I have your attention... I never made 'inaccurate comments' re charging at weber's house ? I keep pointing out that I can see where the EV industry is coming from re safety and electrical design.

As far as the J1772 plug goes, That should read Disconnected IP 54 with EVSE also removing power from pins and Charge state IP 67. No contest.

The IP44 slipped in somehow. That alone was an inaccuracy. Feel free to correct me.
edit: looking back at post, that was a typo, 4not5. Shame nobody picked it up at the time. It could have saved some confusion ?

As for your wish list, the dreadlocks, can't say. Image
Last edited by acmotor on Wed, 29 May 2013, 06:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by g4qber » Tue, 25 Jun 2013, 14:51


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Post by g4qber » Sun, 30 Jun 2013, 15:44

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/05 ... 30508.html

bosch cheaper EVSEs
available july

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_i ... cts_id=166

official bosch website
http://www.pluginnow.com/charging_stations
http://www.plugincars.com/bosch-tries-u ... 27196.html

personally i wouldn't buy one for luggable use cos it doesn't have the yazaki connector, which has a lock hole
I have been using the circontrol model portably since the holden volt trips with other evses
hence i need to be able to lock the trigger into the car
Last edited by g4qber on Sun, 30 Jun 2013, 05:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lismore_Doug » Fri, 05 Jul 2013, 04:43

Well seems like a lot of discussion. I will throw in my 2c worth, that was started in the ´Buying an Imiev´ discussion.

I have yet to take delivery of my new Imiev (p/u this Saturday). I am installing 2 15A circuits: one normal 15A, & the other connected to NSW Off-Peak 1 (normally used for water heaters, etc). This circuit must be permanently connected, so I have ordered all the parts (except some from the scrap box) to build an Open EVSE: Relays & front panel switch off ebay, Arduino purpose built kit from Chris Howells in US (about $200 delivered), J1772 from EVpower in Perth etc. (all up about $500)
This box, when finished will charge the Imiev at the limit of the on-board car charger at about 13.5A in about 6 hours from totally flat. A full charge on OP1 would cost $2.08 (16Kwh, ignoring losses).

When I start building the Open EVSE I will start a construction thread.

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 05 Jul 2013, 14:37

Dont forget to get the current transformer - I did for mine so now I'm waiting on that to show up

btw - when running the wire for the 15A power points, don't just use 2.5mm TPS, as you won't ever be able to upgrade power output

I'd suggest running at least 6mm TPS, or heavier, even if you are only putting in a 20A CB (for a 15A point)

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Post by weber » Sat, 27 Jul 2013, 04:15

The Weber household has just installed two of the only kind of EV charging outlet anyone needs for charging at up to 7.5 kW, namely a 32 amp GPO on a dedicated circuit with a 32 A RCBO.

Not because the MX-5 is finished, but because "Mrs Weber" bought a Nissan Leaf. The other EV being charged is Jeff Owen's 15 year old Honda City conversion. These could well be the newest and the oldest EVs still operating in Brisbane at this time. They are only pulling 10 A each here.

Image   Image

Image   Image
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Post by acmotor » Sat, 27 Jul 2013, 21:54

weber wrote: ...
Not because the MX-5 is finished, but because "Mrs Weber" bought a Nissan Leaf....


Ouch ! what an ego deflater. Image

Now interestingly, you have an EVSE there (the Nissan, lives in the boot one).
Let us note today's date and time you until the wise Mrs Weber (after all she bought a Leaf ! Image ) asks for an EVSE on the wall so she just has to plug the leaf in and leave the nissan charger in the boot where it belongs. I hope she never drives off without it. Image

Resistance is futile, as noted.   Image

But seriously, congrats on the purchase ! White too !   Image
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Post by BigMouse » Sat, 27 Jul 2013, 22:19

weber wrote:Image


This is an enviable sight. Roof full of solar, EVs plugged in. Love it. Image

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Post by PlanB » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 00:16

I concur!

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Post by weber » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 02:03

Thanks guys. I must thank Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen) for the photography, and my Electrician friend David Chaplin for the installation. The house was surrounded by EVs. The MX-5 is of course out of sight around the back.

No ego deflation involved. I recommended she buy an EV. Her 16 year old Hyundai Excel was starting to need expensive repairs in several areas at once and the MX-5 was never going to be much use for picking up her Mum and Dad from their retirement home, including fitting her mum's walker. Although I guess she could have put her Dad in the boot and strapped the walker to a boot-lid rack, or maybe the other way 'round.

My mother-in-law sure is keen for me to take her for a ride in the MX-5 though. I just hope she's still fit enough to withstand the gee forces by the time it's finished. Just hang on for a couple more years, Joyce. Image

Space is where the iMiev lost out too, despite its very attractive $10k lower price. The Volt was not even considered, since it's not an EV, but a series hybrid. We've still got the old dino-burning Tarago for long trips.

It isn't as though we had any choice about the portable EVSE. And I note that it is completely useless to carry it in the boot in its present form, because even though it only allows the car to pull 10 A you can't plug it into a 10 A outlet! It has a 15 A plug. But Coulomb and I are working on defeating the inconveniences and limitations caused by the EVSE (without compromising safety in any way).

People should understand that these ridiculous boxes (EVSEs) are duplicating safety functions that every electrical power outlet in Australia is already required to have via its switchboard, namely a circuit breaker (MCB) and a safety switch (RCD), or a combination unit (RCBO).
Last edited by weber on Sat, 27 Jul 2013, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by weber » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 02:20

Here's how I'm considering implementing up to 7.5 kW EV charging from standard outlets:

First note that standard Australian 240 Vac 3-pin single-phase outlets are already coded for the maximum continuous current they can supply. 10, 15, 20, 25 or 32. And this is done in a clever way that allows a lower-rated plug to plug into a higher-rated socket, but not the other way 'round.

The only problem is that this coding is mechanical. So how do we turn a mechanical coding into an electronic one. Simple. For each type of plug, you have a short (200 mm) adapter lead which has that plug on one end and a 4-pin inline socket on the other end. Inside the inline socket there is a single electronic component such as a resistor, that codes in an analog fashion, for the current that the plug can handle (e.g. higher resistance means lower current). It is connected between the earth pin and the fourth pin (not active or neutral but "pilot").

The long cable to the car has 4 wires (as do EVSE cables), and it begins with a 4-pin plug that can plug into the inline socket used on all the short adapters. This connection should be waterproof and locking. The 4-pin plug must be of a kind that does not plug into any power outlet in the country-of-use, and it must be rated to take the current of the highest-rated adapter lead, as must the long cable.

Electronics in the car detects the capability of the chosen 3-pin plug by measuring the resistance between the 4th wire (the "pilot" wire) and earth, and then it draws at most the allowed current.

So the $2000+ box on the wall and the heavy $1000+ "lunch box" in the cable are each replaced by a 1 cent resistor in the back of an inline socket, plus the circuit breaker and safety switch which are already on the switchboard.

Anyone see any problems with this?
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Post by acmotor » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 03:54

So you don't have a 10A to 15A adaptor cable ????? What sort of electronics tech are you ? Image After all, you insisted that charging from 10A GPO was OK didn't you ?

Great to hear you suggested buying the Leaf. At least the J1772 and EVSE didn't put you off the deal ! Image

A waterproof locking plug ? A pilot signal ? Next you'll be adding a full handshake between EV and charge point, neutral to earth continuity test........


Tell Mrs Weber that she can buy an EVSE from holden for $350 while you try to re-invent the wheel with lesser features. Image

Good on you for trying to lower the price of EVSEs !
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Post by bladecar » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 05:06

Yes, Weber, good on you for trying to lower the price of evse's (or avoid them altogether, is how I'd like to look at it).
Anyone bought a mobile phone adapter or ipad adapter recently?
Anyone wish that the same adapter fitted everything?
Anyone wonder why the different brands can have different adapters.
The evse will be a built-in income for the manufacturers.
The electronically-accomplished out there, Weber, Coulomb, AcMotor, Johny and lots of others in this forum, are all capable of coming up with an agreed simpler device which will avoid the income-bearing competition. Standardisation is the key, it's not even so much about money.
Each manufacturer will make the device their own, which will make it difficult. The thing is, it's early, now's the time to have a go.
I'm all for it. You'll have to do it without me, unfortunately.
As they say in "High Road to China", there's no rush, just no big delay required. "The oxen is slow, but the Earth is patient".

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Post by Lismore_Doug » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 05:24

I was told the reason why the 15A cct is advised for the Miev was because something else might be on the circuit at the time. I think this is a bit overkill because the most current you can draw is limited by the circuit breaker anyway.

To cover the odd occasions I need to charge from a 10A point, I have made a box with a 12A cct breaker, & a 10A plug + 15A socket.
For the cheapskates, it is possible to cut the extra out of a 10A line socket to fit a 15A plug. One of the sockets is made in 2 parts + cover. You can split the socket apart, & use a ground down hacksaw blade to deepen the Earth socket. My old man ran his welder on that for years.

My 2 circuits in the Garage are 15A without ELCB.One is Off-peak, & the other is a normal 15A GPO. I will make my Open-EVSE with a hole in the back so it sits over the socket: the EVSE plugs in then the box hangs on keyhole shaped screwholes. If ever I need a quick charge at non-off-peak times, I can lift the EVSE off & move it to the other power point. (The Miev will charge 50% faster at 13.5A, compared to the standard EVSE at 9A.

I noticed that in the US you can have your Panasonic EVSE (as supplied with the Miev) modified for 15A. I think it is better to have it at 9A so it can run on a standard GPO.

I ordered anothe 2.2Kw of solar panels this week. That means I will have 7.2Kw, the other 5Kw at 60c, the 2.2Kw at 6c unless I use it! As farv as I am concerned, using Off=Peak, but feeding into the grid in daytime, mean that I have assuaged my Carbon commitment (even tho I sold my Credits).

Has anyone else bought a Miev lately? I think they are fantastic value at around the $25K on the road.

regards Doug

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Post by bladecar » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 05:48

If I hadn't become tired of waiting for the car makers to make an ev, I would definitely have considered buying one right now.

You know, the imiev definitely looks like an ev. My car only has the 'electric' badge on the back but I really did feel a bit harrassed today when a Japanese-style work vehicle drove closer behind me than I wanted, was revving the engine, and after I had the indicator on for some time, was close enough that putting on the brakes to move to the next lane to turn right was stressful. I'd been doing a little over 50 in a 60 zone but there were shops left and right and traffic lights ahead to go red at any time.
The vehicle was a work ute towing a trailer. He sped up on down the road. Sure he may have done that anyway, but it didn't look good to me. Tell me if you have any agression behaviour that you might attribute to having an ev?

The Brisbane paper did a write up on the BMW i3 that's going to be released next year. Looks pretty good. BMW are said to be saying that it will be the car that will give people no excuse not to buy an ev.

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 05:57

Lismore_Doug wrote: I noticed that in the US you can have your Panasonic EVSE (as supplied with the Miev) modified for 15A. I think it is better to have it at 9A so it can run on a standard GPO.

If you mean the evseupgrade http://www.evseupgrade.com, the current limit is switchable in one amp increments. They tell you how to do it in a leaflet that comes back with the upgrade. (I imagine it must involve a sort of morse code on the J1772 button; it's about the only input device that there is.) For US users, it involves upgrading from 120 V to 240 V, as well as making the default current different and the current limit adjustable. We don't need the 240 V upgrade, and the freight cost (in money and time) to the US would be prodigious.
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Post by g4qber » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 06:25

sounds like i'm repeating my info
i have
a) mitsu EVSE original - allegedly this would cost $1600, 2 years ago
b) nissan EVSE modified by evseupgrade $1050, 12-13A on imiev
c) swedish EVSE $750, 6, 10, 16 A selectable
c) holden EVSE, comes with volt, but u can get 2nd one for $350 as acmotor says.

abc trips on the volt :|, acmotor will get his sparkie friend to test the volt in the very near future. e-station has already done some preliminary earth leakage testing.
holden had me repeat myself since they changed the customer service officer.

ab have holes to padlock j1772 trigger in place
holden EVSE is cheap & stealable, but has 10A socket as standard. volt relies on car alarm to deter thieves.
swedish EVSE relies on a code to make the unit unusable, but this is already after the thieves have physically taken the device.

e-station's fbox model only charges volt at 10A max
i use the cardbox with the volt since it doesn't trip & also charges at >10A
32A model also charges the volt at >10A, $1790 + shipping
http://e-station.com.au/homecharge.html

the fbox and cardbox are lockable and come with a standard yazaki 16A trigger

the 32A model has a larger trigger & needs a cable lock it also seems to stress the j1772 socket a bit more due to the added weight.
I'm on the lookout for a lockwood cable lock as the numbers on the master cable lock were hard to see, so I returned it to bunnings & got a refund
Last edited by g4qber on Sat, 27 Jul 2013, 20:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 06:37

BMW i3 'the car that will give people no excuse not to buy an ev ' ??? They wish.
.....only if it has RANGE !!! Image No fancy features in a vehicle can make up for range.
The future looks bright though as the EVs start to flow from the manufacturers. Image Might still be a few years away. Right now, there are good deals on Leaf and iMiEV !

Ah yes, standard charging connectors and protocols. I agree there. I wonder if J1772 and CHAdeMO will win the political connector battle ?
At least the iMiEV, Leaf, Volt, Tesla, PIPrius all use interchangeable J1772 plugs and EVSEs so far. (even if the Volt itself trips RCDs)

Can't say I've noted any road rage to EVs. I only have a small sign 'pure electric' smaller than the Mitsubishi name on the back.
Most road rage seems to be toward SUVs ?
Bladecar, you may be looking for a reason why bogans are just bogans in a ute ? Odds are they wouldn't know what an EV was anyway.

Doug, 7.2kW of PV ? Great ! You must be getting ready for a model S with 85kWh battery pack. Image
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Post by g4qber » Sun, 28 Jul 2013, 06:40

this may be off topic

the current gen LEAF has too light a steering for me and the LEAF "interview" put me off.
also I had already bought the imiev 1 year prior.
I still like it cos it is rear wheel drive.

having a timer in the imiev would be good as well as cruise control and auto lights that weren't bamboozled by bridges on the mitchell fwy; toyota & lexuses also fooled by the bridges

also there may be less to go wrong.
the LEAF is like a golf in terms of gadgetry and infotainment etc.

interestingly the volt doesn't yet have bluetooth audio streaming so I can't take advantage of the Bose audio to watch movies on a nexus 7 tablet
the volume level on a nexus 7 tablet is as loud as an iPad.

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