Weber and Coulomb's MX-5

Post by **coulomb** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 06:35

Oops, I was wrong; the latest 180 frame ABB motors are all like that; besides, acmotor's motor is only about 15 months old.

The weight of an ABB 3GAA182102-ADC is 161 kg, compared to ours at 95 kg. It's in a 180L frame, 600 mm long (533.5 mm long per the Combined Asia Region catalogue... hmmm) compared to our 470 mm. That's a volume ratio of 600/470 * (180/132)^2 = 2.4.

I guess that's why ours is a lot more expensive than some other motors around the same power rating.

I note that acmotor's is rated at 26.0 kW @ 60 Hz, at least according to this page:

http://www.advancedmarinesolutions.com/ ... ypagetab=1

Edit: had no size and the wrong weight.
Edit2: link to page claiming 26.0 kW
Edit3: forgot to change one dimension in the calc
Edit4: Weight is 161, not 143 (was reading the wrong column)

Post by **woody** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 15:05

Awesome news! Are you putting a ribbon on it for Friday?

Post by **Johny** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 15:15

What a great Christmas present. I guess Santa didn't have an engine hoist - hence the delivery by station wagon.

Post by **weber** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 16:45

It would have been a great Christmas present, if it had been the right motor. As it stands it is completely useless. It's all in the 3rd-last letter of the part number. We ordered an "H", they sent us an "A". And we clearly included the description "B35 Foot and Flange".

I just got off the phone with David Gayner of Control Logic, Brisbane. He has been in contact with ABB Australia and he tells me they will remove the front housing from a flanged 132 frame motor and send it to us. They understandably can't get it off to us today, but we should expect it around the 6th of January. Along with some torque wrench settings and a phone number for someone to talk us through the changeover.

This raises the question of what acmotor plans to do with his flangeless 180 frame motor?

I have to say that David Gayner (Control Logic) and James Carlon and Andrew Cochrane (ABB Australia) have been extremely helpful through this long drawn out process. It seems to be ABB in Finland or Sweden that can't get their act together.

We first tried to get a quote for this motor 7.5 months ago and finally got one and ordered it 5.5 months ago. I liked Coulomb's quip when I first told him we'd been sent the wrong motor:
"Ah, well, it was made at breakneck speed, what could we expect?"

Post by **Electrocycle** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 17:54

weber wrote:This raises the question of what acmotor plans to do with his flangeless 180 frame motor?

probably using it in direct drive since it's a 4 pole

Post by **weber** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 18:41

Electrocycle wrote:probably using it in direct drive since it's a 4 pole

Indubitably.

It's this one here:
http://www.evalbum.com/1639

But doesn't he still need to mount something to the motor flange, that will contain a bearing that both slides and rotates, to support the start of the propshaft before the first universal joint, and allow its spline to move back and forth?

Something like this.

Although I seem to remember that Mal's ute has a propshaft with the sliding joint in the middle, or rubber universals instead of Cardans, or something, so that it didn't need a flange.

Or maybe the Isuzu's diff is fixed and has half-axles with universals and he can mount the motor right at the diff with a suitable coupling to allow for misalignment.

You there acmotor?

Post by **woody** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 18:52

Hiluxes have wacky driveshafts anyway.
Driveshafts with sliding splines like the front of a 4wd are fairly common.
Early Valiants had a ball and trunion joint which does the job of a universal and a sliding spline in one.

SOGOS has the advantage of the speedo takeoff.

I'm planning on sliding spline + putting a speedo face on a tacho.

Post by **woody** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 18:53

In other news, I have an ETA^2 (ETA on an ETA) for my motor of mid january :-/

Post by **coulomb** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 20:16

woody wrote: In other news, I have an ETA^2 (ETA on an ETA) for my motor of mid January :-/

So in mid January you'll have the ETA (not squared)? Or the actual motor, with a higher resolution ETA in early January?

Edit: oops, somehow read late January instead of mid.

Post by **woody** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 20:41

In mid January I'll have an ETA of my motor which will probably be mid-April.
How much did your ETAs slip?

Post by **woody** » Thu, 24 Dec 2009, 21:10

coulomb wrote:

I love how the serial number ends in "001". Not their top-selling configuration!

Post by **weber** » Fri, 25 Dec 2009, 03:41

woody wrote: In mid January I'll have an ETA of my motor which will probably be mid-April.
How much did your ETAs slip?

The first lead time they told us was 14 weeks (5 weeks to build it and 9 weeks shipping). It has taken 23 weeks so far.

[Edit: "In the end it took" -> "It has taken ... so far"]

Post by **woody** » Fri, 25 Dec 2009, 04:00

23 weeks is fine for me - by that time I'll have a brand new baby Woody (from Wife #1), and hopefully a running, registered 1200cc Cortina. If I'm ready for a motor by then an awful lot of things have gone my way...

Post by **acmotor** » Fri, 25 Dec 2009, 06:04

Neat emotor !!! The MX5 should work well.

Shame its 2 pole and you have to put a gearbox with adaptor plate after it to get useable revs !!

Knocks the efficiency and weight around a bit.
I've got 161kg direct drive at 94% eff. with sliding spline coupling shaft in Rodeo (standard item with unis both ends)(same as in red suzi). No flange mount required. Feet mount to original engine mounts. Rodeo also runs split tailshaft with centre bearing as standard.
Red suzi drive shaft...

Motor end from underneath..

transfer case end.. (mind you, not much movement between them but original suzi arrangement was same motor to transfer case)
The rubber boot cover the sliding spline.

The 220V Delta should work well. You'll need 200+ amps from the VFD though.
Red suzi lives in 200V delta all the time now though controller limited.

I really need to get the Rodeo finished over summer !

Post by **weber** » Fri, 25 Dec 2009, 16:34

acmotor wrote: Neat emotor !!! The MX5 should work well.
...
The 220V Delta should work well. You'll need 200+ amps from the VFD though.

Thanks acmotor. All the best with the Rodeo.

Our VFD is an Emerson/Control Techniques Unidrive SP5402. It is rated at 273 A peak in closed loop mode (we plan to use an encoder) and 156 A continuous. We will be battery limited. With 212 x 40 Ah Sky Energy LiFePO4 we hope to pull 6C at 2.5 V per cell for up to 10 seconds, at least when they are fully charged and warm (and new) to give us 100 kW peak mechanical at the motor. That's 22 kW * sqrt(3) * 2.7. Tmax/Tn for the motor is 3.8 so it should barely get warm.

I guess the most important thing about the delivery of this motor is that we've finally proved that those high powered long-132-frame ABB motors, that we've all been drooling over in the catalogs for a year or more, are not vapourware.

Post by **acmotor** » Fri, 25 Dec 2009, 19:02

Yeah, it is good to see one of these selected industrial induction motors going in to an EV !

Post by **antiscab** » Sat, 26 Dec 2009, 06:29

weber wrote:
I guess the most important thing about the delivery of this motor is that we've finally proved that those high powered long-132-frame ABB motors, that we've all been drooling over in the catalogs for a year or more, are not vapourware.

haha, yes, and if the next one ordered is higher than 002, then we're not hte only ones ordering them.

dibs on 007

Matt

Post by **weber** » Wed, 30 Dec 2009, 22:22

We finally finished and primed the rear battery cage that will hold almost 1/3rd of our cells, when a wild parrot decided to check out our handywork. A good omen.

Post by **coulomb** » Sun, 17 Jan 2010, 03:35

Weber bought a pair of these recently for BMS development:

Eee-zed-430-F2013 development tool kit:

Not bad for AU$34 plus postage.

The wires aren't usually there; they are to connect to a simple RS232 interface, to an RS232 to USB dongle, to connect to a computer (phew!):

I have the timer-based UART code partly working; it transmits 8-bit characters at 9600 bps to hyperterminal. It looks like the serial code will come to about 300 bytes (of 2K available flash).

Now if I could just fix a few problems. For example, the TI FET (JTAG dongle thing) doesn't seem to play nicely with the USB to serial dongle. I'm sure it will all work out in the end.

The chip we intend to use for the BMUs (Battery Management Units, the boards on each cell) is the 2012, much the same as this 2013 except for the A/D converters (12 bit vs 10 bit, differential vs single ended). It even has a temperature sensor in that plastic package, which we can hit with a hair dryer etc.

Edit1: 9600 -> 9600 bps
Edit2: 4-wire JTAG -> 2-wire JTAG (+ power & gnd)
Edit3: CMS -> BMS or BMU as appropriate

Post by **coulomb** » Sun, 17 Jan 2010, 03:40

I should have added that the development kit comes with a C compiler (no thanks), an assembler (yes, please), and a somewhat Visual Studio-like development environment (not too bad).

It even comes with an easy to use installer (less than 24 hours, less than 5 minutes if you don't try to mix versions).

Post by **weber** » Wed, 20 Jan 2010, 20:51

The flange for the 22 kW 132-frame 2-pole aluminium induction motor finally arrived today. So the delivery is now complete, 6.5 months after ordering.

Now to put it on the motor, and find/choose someone in Brisbane who can mate the motor up to the gearbox and flywheel for us, with strength and precision.

Post by **woody** » Wed, 20 Jan 2010, 21:08

Topical question: what are you doing for an incremental encoder? (40mm shaft, same as me)

Post by **EV2Go** » Wed, 20 Jan 2010, 21:36

weber wrote:Now to put it on the motor, and find/choose someone in Brisbane who can mate the motor up to the gearbox and flywheel for us, with strength and precision.

I still think it would be worth giving Bruce a call... viewtopic.php?t=1154

Post by **weber** » Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 02:12

Thanks EV2Go, for reminding me about Bruce and that excellent thread.

Thank Woody for reminding me about the encoder. We plan to fit a shaft-mounted type on the fan end. We'll be removing the fan cover and fan and hopefully getting the belt pulley from the ICE mounted there to drive the aircon and power steering.

Then we need to attach the encoder shaft to the end of the motor shaft, on the non-motor side of the pulley. The body of the encoder doesn't need any support, and indeed if you did you would only stress its bearings and those of the motor. All it needs is an anti-rotation-arm sticking radially out from it and going beyond the pulley diameter to be stopped from rotating by a rod attached to the motor.

It may be necessary to drill and tap an axial hole into the motor shaft at the fan end, to attach the encoder shaft.

We also need to put in some temperature sensors while we have the end-shield off. I took the cover off the terminal box to check if they had put them in as standard. They hadn't. But I saw this folded piece of paper that looked like an engineer had dropped his shopping docket in there. 1 kg of potatoes $3.20 etc. But it was much more interesting.

The amount of current imbalance between the windings looks worrying, if that's what this means. And it doesn't say (OK) next to them.

Anyway. I was thinking we should use 3 of these in series. PTC thermistors 100R 160^C.

http://au.farnell.com/epcos/b59100m1160 ... dp/1299946

We could attach one to each stator winding, somewhere away from the internal fans on the ends of the rotor, with neutral cure silicone, which seems to have a higher temperature rating than any other common adhesive.

Anyone have any ideas on this?

Post by **Travers** » Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 02:57

weber wrote: .... hopefully getting the belt pulley from the ICE mounted there to drive the aircon and power steering.

I am intrigued at this, being new to EV but not knew to modifying and driving/playing with cars this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. (doesn't mean I am not missing something)

Power steering is usually needed most at the vehicles lowest speeds and unless you plan on having a clutch (haven't read the full thread, but clutches are only there due to ICE poor low rpm torque so why keep)
Which means power steering running off the electric motor will not be rotating when you most need it.
Once travelling at speed, power steering is less needed, especially in a nice little sports car with an appropriate wheel alignment.
From what I have seen there are cars with electric Power steering pumps which makes a lot of sense for ICE and Electric motor cars, you only power the pump when and how much you need it, so for long range cruising the pump will be drawing very little of your power.

A/C similar but not so dramatic.

Happy to be enlightened.
If this is more appropriate discussion for somewhere else, please move as suitable.