Tesla's Place in history

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Post by bladecar » Fri, 17 Mar 2017, 22:37

Hi

Watching the wonderful job Elon Musk is doing in forcing the established car industry to branch out to electric propulsion reminds me of Bill Gates establishment of a colossus in the IT world.

I thought it wonderful that one man was in control and made Microsoft a company with proper management (and where financial clout forced the smaller manufacturers to adopt a common method of operation with their equipment. I was so impressed that Microsoft forced video card manufacturers, hard drive manufacturers, all the others, to adopt a common strategy. Usb, how wonderful.

Of course, we got a letter in the mail inviting us to join MSN, and I became afraid of the monopoly that Microsoft desired. So lots of people rebelled and did not "rent" Office when Australia became a test-bed for that poor financial choice.

Now, we have Tesla, and the potential, if we're lucky, for it to be another Microsoft. A powerful company that wants to take over the world (a basic Tesla free for the first 3 months, easy leasing from then on).

GM and others are using their manufacturing base to try to strangle Tesla out of the market by getting cars with very acceptable performance to market first, with parochial appeal to the locals. I fear this is just a strategy to head ev's off at the pass. So I want Tesla to succeed, and Musk to remain in control.

What will happen. Another American monster company lording it over the world, or the current polluting monster companies heading them off at the pass?

If only there were an Australian company which can supply a battery bank for South Australia. If there were, how can things be changed to prevent a successful company from being taken over by an overseas company for an extra one dollar a share, where the board makes 20 million each from the transaction and we lose it all for ever.

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Post by bladecar » Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 21:00

Hi, so that I don't try to create endless topics often with no likelhood or sometimes expectation of a reply, I'd like to put up another discussion point.

You might have seen that the proud owners of VW diesel vehicles are unhappy with the non-performance of their cars since the "upgrades" (note, never "downgrades", no such thing), and are suing VW ongoing.

It seems that either VWs outperformed the other diesel vehicles in the marketplace, the owners of a particular make having no clue as to the difference between their diesel and a VW (or they would have bought the VW) or the Japanese, in particular, made great diesels that weren't vastly infererior, in performance, to the VW's.

But then, has anyone seen the results of emissions checks on the Japanese diesels (in particular)?

It seems to me that there are probably more friendly rivals in the vehicle manufacturing arena and less friendly ones.

Maybe VW made really-good-perfoming diesels which could only work with the cheat mechanism underlying them, ie, designed things that other manufacturers couldn't try without that same cheat intention. But I doubt it. I'm still wondering if they're whacking VW and its brands because it is a formidable opponent (not ignoring the blatant instead of subtle cheating that usually happens).



Well, I had a look further and this page is interesting. It helps to explain why VW became so complacent when much other testing is rubbish. Governments and Corporations.   You can't have one without the other.

I still want the Government, but not sure about the other.

http://www.motoring.com.au/dieselgate-v ... dy-103935/

I'm sure there's more out there.

But what about the Americans and the Japanese diesel emissions? ? ???


Edited for spelling, small changes, a web page and (to be continued).
Last edited by bladecar on Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 16:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rusdy » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 00:25

It's a pity Evans Electric never took off. I thought this little company would take over the world couple years ago. Looks like the battery needs to be cost effective first before anything else .

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Post by bladecar » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 06:08

Why do I need company when I can reply to myself :)

In keeping with forum rules, I am changing the topic on each occasion.


I was watching Q&A this week and one of the informed tweets along the bottom of the screen remonstrated with the greenies about the way Nuclear was being ignored when talking about energy.

I think you all sleep far too well and I can help to do something about that.   Here is an Australian expert (no, not a car expert.)) Different versions of this information can be seen on various utube videos with relative small numbers of viewers, but this is the real fake news. The real fake news is not only what you see on the usual rubbish in the usual places, but the worst fake news is what you will never see in the usual places.

You'll note that the speaker here says the the Prime minister of Japan has brought in a law that reporters will be jailed for 10 years in Japan for discussing this information.
Doctors who examine sufferers will not be paid if they inform their patients what the symptoms are pointing to.
You are advised not to go to Japan and not to eat Japanese products because the contaminated product is being mixed with uncontaminated product but this does not changed the danger.
This applies to much of the surrounding Pacific Ocean but that is not discussed much in this particular video.

Please don't watch it, but if you do, remember the 3 circles. Worry only about the smaller one, what you can do something about. Think a bit about the middle circle, what you can influence. In this bigger circle, do your damndest to ignore it. No, this is no chain letter. I wish it were.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVtmxBUU5Zw

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Post by Richo » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 20:48

bladecar wrote:So I want Tesla to succeed, and Musk to remain in control.


Before Musk and Tesla was Martin Eberhard and the Tzero.
Eberhard then made Tesla.
Musk was just the bank.

How would you feel if a bank railroaded you out of your own business?

This is why I have no respect for Musk.
Well as much respect as any other bank really.

I'm happy for Tesla to be the pulling force for change.
But I in no way attribute this to Musk.
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Post by bladecar » Sat, 08 Apr 2017, 04:49

Ok, well that's interesting.

I imagine that there would be no Tesla, as such, without Musk so I guess you're saying that his methods were not worth the ends and that you'd rather that the pre-Tesla still existed.

There would be no world-wide change in the ev industry without a threat to Porsche, Mercedes etc.

It seems that you're entitled to not like Musk. I'm only interested in his power to change the monster that has been the car industry.

Like Trump, we don't know what future monsters will appear :)


But none of this matters compared to Fukushima. Not even global warming.
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Post by Rusdy » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 18:12

bladecar wrote:
But none of this matters compared to Fukushima. Not even global warming.


That's why we need more Fukushima and Trump. Actually, Trump is too sissy. We need more dictators (the North Korea style) that have guts to press the nuclear warfare again.

Addressing the symptom (climate change) not going to fix it. The root cause is the human. Let's nuke 'em all. Image

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Post by Richo » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 20:36

bladecar wrote: Ok, well that's interesting.
I imagine that there would be no Tesla, as such, without Musk


No Tesla Motor Co existed before Musk.
Musk just happened to be in the right place at the right time flashing some cash.
Could have been anyone really.

Telsa would have gone on even if Musk didn't put his 2c worth in.

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Post by Richo » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 20:41

Rusdy wrote:The root cause is the human.


Its cause is not the human it's the root Image

Pop control didn't work for India or China - more of a temporary bandaid.
Barring WWIII the end is inevitable.
Image
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Post by bladecar » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 06:30

Musk put in all his money, and then needed to be bailed out.

The 'anyone else' had to have a strong desire to create a clean industry.

They also needed to have the guts to take on the oil industry in all its forms. There are not many of this type of Elon Musk around. Branson has a flavour of it.

How long would we have to wait?

It could have been me or you :) What were the chances.

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Post by bladecar » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 06:42

Well while the wildlife have to die a shocking nuclear death, let's have a world-wide nuclear war. Let's start at the edge of the blast area of the nuclear states, and at the edge of the blast area for the leaders of the nuclear states.

But only if we must put the rest of life through this without any thought to the current consequences.

There must be a total worldwide effort to largely neutralise Fukushima, because Fukushima is determined to neutralise everything else. It's not going to go away and it reflects extremely badly on the so-called civilised world that the media can be the first casualty of this lack of leadership. Such an efficient lack of leadership.

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Post by Richo » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 20:27

bladecar wrote:It could have been me or you :) What were the chances.
I'm sure if Telsa didn't I would have Image

But I'm sure you realise that is isn't the ev that was the game changer.
It's the batteries.
Control the batteries, control the power so to speak.

This is why Chev didn't release the volt straight up - they didn't own the battery.
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Post by Richo » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 20:41

bladecar wrote: Well while the wildlife have to die a shocking nuclear death, let's have a world-wide nuclear war.
Well as the population grow resources will become scarcer and tensions will increase leading to fights over land and/or resources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconsumption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_phosphorus
Probably wont happen in my life time but your grand-kids or great-grandkids will know all about it.

Fukushima is an ongoing tragedy but in the grand scheme of things it isn't that significant.
In a 1000 years fish'll still be swimming around, the earth will still be spinning.

The fish wont care if we are here or not.
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Post by bladecar » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 22:26

Richo said: Fukushima is an ongoing tragedy but in the grand scheme of things it isn't that significant.
In a 1000 years fish'll still be swimming around, the earth will still be spinning.


This time, it doesn't look that way.

Tiny fine bits of various types of nuclear material are being washed into the Pacific Ocean and up into the sky and, as described by a Nuclear Scientist, they are microscopic and are fires on an atomic level, fires which cannot be put out.

Some imitate different chemicals which the body uses, and take the place of calcium, Iodine and another in particular.

Japan is said to be moving top soil to different parts of Japan, supposedly to make it impossible to use an uncontaminated part of Japan as a comparison in future court cases against the Nuclear industry, which includes the Japanese Government. If they can claim the level of radioactivity for any part of Japan is not significant different compared to other parts of Japan, there is no case to answer.

The smallest fish are being contaminated with radioactivity and so on all the way up the food chain so that the biggest fish are the most contaminated (those which are still alive). I'd have to guess we are going to see many more japanese fishing vessels in the Southern Ocean, for a significant reason this time.

For once, males are superior because Females are twice as affected by radioactivity as males, and children are 10 times as affected.
Chernobyl showed that children's heart muscles do not develop normally because the cells no longer remember what their function is and this happens up to 10 years later.

Interested parties have measured the radioactivity of car air con filters in Tokyo and measure a level that in the US would be put in a holding place for dangerous materials. (As an aside, I see that Tesla will have a monster A/C filter for its cars and I started to wonder if this had anything to do with it.)

Deformed fish are occurring on the West Coast of the US.

I was looking up radioactivity measuring devices (I'm not going to bother with it, not simple) and saw a surfer in Oregon recommending one and commenting that he measured higher than unusual radioactivity when he surfed but that he had to turn it off when he flew because it went off its head and he didn't want the flight attendant to confiscate it (just hearsay here).

So I invite you to ignore it as the best option. If an earthquake hits Fukushima at above level 7, the tottering buildings there will probably collapse and there MAY be a fire which cannot be extinguished, powered by nuclear energy. Fukushima, Fukushima   (a bit like Voldemort, but real).

When was the last time you heard Fukushima mentioned in your daily lives?

Is it because it's not important, or because they have no idea what to do about it.

It needs a 'Manhattan Project' with far more determination.   It's the World's problem.   Only the World can try to fix it.


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Post by Jeff Owen » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 01:41

While Bender may be correct.....

Image

.......what has any of this got to do with electric vehicles?

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Post by Scotty T » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 18:39

I'll address the car issues in this thread.

VW sucks. I have one of the affected dieselgate vehicles, but it has another problem which can be seen in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpVBr2D1Y0U

I bought it just out of warranty with 75k km. I bought it because VW raved that it got the same economy as a Prius. Most of the time it runs just fine. When it goes into DPF regen mode (which happens often because of short city trips) the above video happens (intermittently) and it idles very rough. It has also happened when the engine is very cold and not in DPF mode.

VW dealer said it was injectors, all were faulty. About $4.5k to replace all. I didn't believe it. I wrote to VW customer service and sent them the video. They got back to me and said they can't do anything because it is out of warranty, and because it had been serviced by other than VW.

The VW specialist mechanic (not a dealer) who looks after it checked the injectors and found they were OK, tested some stuff, including compression and said the compression was down and it was leaking fuel into the oil. This was the cause of the problem, and it was because I did short trips (typically 18km commute each way daily). The problem is exacerbated by the engine being underpowered, the gears being tall (Bluemotion 'feature') and the DPF which puts pressure on the engine all conspiring to cause the engine to lose some compression with only 125k km on it. I'm not really sure about this either. I think they are saying that so they can call for an engine replacement with a low km engine from a wreck (cost a little less than new injectors) because they can't figure out the actual problem either and it's likely a whole new engine would fix it. I've found when it gets really stuck at 1000 RPM and even lifting off and on again doesn't fix it, turning the ignition off and restarting always fixes it. Could that be compression? I'm suspect.

I tried to buy a car within my budget that had the lowest emissions on paper and supposedly as good as a hybrid, which their marketing material never said anything about mainly doing long trips to get good economy, not cause DPF regen mode all the time, and not ruin the engine. It's actually not great around town and with the issue it has seems to be deteriorating, and doesn't even come near a Prius in real world conditions. I'm now stuck with a lemon that will cost near half the value of the car to fix and gets the same or worse than it's petrol equivalent. It has the added bonus of making me look like a jerk when the DPF regen mode is running and I'm at a traffic light belching out smoke as if the engine is about to blow up.

I am already on one of the class actions, however I don't think that will result in anything useful. I could go and get the modification done but I don't think that is useful either considering the engine/system has bigger problems and will probably need replacing. Whatever happens I am at a financial loss for trying to do the right thing.

Sorry for the long rant there.

All the big manufacturers suck. I obviously want to get rid of the VW, and we were looking at a 'new old' Leaf. It's so disappointing that Nissan and other manufacturers have not even really made a decent effort to bring electric cars to market. The 2012 Leafs are also still way too expensive for what they are. I was really keen on taking the plunge with a Leaf but I feel it would be like flushing money down the toilet, money I'd rather see go to a better option like a Tesla Model 3. Why should I give my money to any of the other car makers for their token efforts when they still push ICE?

Tesla don't suck. They are the only ones not making petrol cars. They are the only ones putting in chargers. I feel they are the only ones who deserve my money. As soon as our financial situation allows us to commit to a Model 3 I will do it. I'm not fussed about whether Elon Musk was a bank, at least he committed to this and certainly is more deserving of respect than any of the big car companies or the banks that back them.

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Post by bladecar » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 18:44

Hi Jeff,

I think the first two posts have something to do with electric cars (why do we want them, how is it coming about, why aren't there more of them sort-of-thing.

I think the rest of the posts are to do with why-are-we-bothering when critical issues are being ignored, all to do with trying not to defile the planet.

I think it is rubbish for me to talk about Fukushima when it can only stress people. It is being ignored in the open media and that is a crime in my book.

I said before that this forum seems to be more about people who know how to understand electric vehicles rather than people who are hell bent on owning one. In this regard, the world is moving on, thank whatever is out there.

So I created an area where I can vent (maybe for a very short time :)) because this forum is one of the few places that tries to deal with important matters (for whatever reason).

I don't want to talk about Fukushima because people might worry in a futile manner but it comes back to the person in world war 2 who talked about watching others being arrested and he said nothing, until they were coming for him.

Any opportunity to talk about the thing (existentially important, like moving away from all pollution) might be critical in some unexpected way.

For me, electric anything, and solar anything is moving away from bad processes. These other things are like that too, but are even more important.

Do what you like. It annoys me to want to carry on like this.

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Post by Richo » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 21:00

Jeff Owen wrote: While Bender may be correct.....


Bender my Hero Image
bladecar wrote:nuclear material ... as described by a Nuclear Scientist, they are microscopic and are fires on an atomic level, fires which cannot be put out.

And like all fires when the fuel runs out the fire goes out.
Ignore the Iodine as it has a half life is 8 days.
That leaves Cesium which has a 30-year half-life.
So after about 1,000 years it has about a billionth of it radioactivity.
Like I said the fish wont care.
Then take into the amount that was released and diluted into the ocean.
It really is insignificant.
Bad but insignificant.

bladecar wrote: a surfer in Oregon recommending one (radiation meter) and commenting that he measured higher than unusual radioactivity when he surfed but that he had to turn it off when he flew because it went off its head and he didn't want the flight attendant to confiscate it (just hearsay here).

So a paranoid hippy surfer that'll be believable.
That great big ball in the sky is a great source of radiation.
Flying means less protective atmosphere thus more radiation.
Well documented.
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Post by Richo » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 21:06

bladecar wrote:
For me, electric anything, and solar anything is moving away from bad processes. These other things are like that too, but are even more important.


So think about the current realistic use of solar stored in batteries for your personal use.
What I want to know does this really close the loop?

Energy used and CO2 released in the process to create, ship and install the panels and batteries.

Has Telsa/Musky done a study to see if his powerwall is carbon neutral or better?

Chuck in that eV recharged from the same system to keep it relevant and on topic...
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Post by bladecar » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 05:25

Out of curiosity Richo, do you know anything about the two cesiums which are involved, strontium 90 or plutonium. Half life.

Have you heard of the giga factory and how it's roof will/does consist of solar panels, or the recycling of gases used in the making of the batteries.

So, has Tesla/Musky done a study to see if his powerwall is carbon neutral or better? and what does that mean. Over what time, what would be happening in its absence, and do we really care?
The thing is that if we say that making the power wall is polluting, so is anything else you did, but without the return. The battery ingredients are not consumed and Musk intends to have a specialised recycling plant on the manufacturing site to recycle returned batteries and turn them into new ones (this applies to the US, of course, not sure where else).   I think this also means that he will undercut the other manufacturing pretenders for price although some will have to follow this trend.

California in their spring season has been producing more green power than they were using and the price of electricity dropped to zero in those periods. Macquarie Bank (Australian) is investing 200 million in a battery bank (in California). Think of the wonderful foresight shown by our politicians over the last 10 years. They've been saying "We get so much money from coal. If we don't sell coal, we won't get any money" That's so true. This very week, one of them said on Q&A that selling our coal is good for the world because India burning our shotty coal is much better than them burning someone else's very-shotty coal. Who could argue with that?


Off topic (to keep it on topic), the news is that the 'Bolt' is not increasing in sales due to limited release in the US at this time. They talk about GM's massive capacity but that's irrelevant when they have no intention to use it. It is suggested online that GM is only using it to average out their vehicle lineup's average consumption.

It is said that when you go to a dealership and ask for a 'Bolt', they try to steer you to another product ("Now You Know" UTube latest report.) fyi, in case you don't have time to check it out for yourself.

Edited to make it so much better than it was.
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Post by jonescg » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 19:49

Nothing in modern life is carbon neutral. For sure, batteries are an energy intensive, land-altering technology which redeems itself by storing electrical energy for the next 7-15 years post manufacture.

If being 100% neutral in living on planet earth is the goal, we would give up on all industry and revert to living a simple life where food is gathered and hunted. I mean, it's worked for about 1 million years for Homo sapiens.

But modern life is pretty nice. We live longer, don't get sick, we're warm when it's cold out, and I can drive an electric motor scooter on publicly funded roads.
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Post by Richo » Tue, 18 Apr 2017, 21:19

bladecar wrote: Out of curiosity Richo, do you know anything about the two cesiums which are involved, strontium 90 or plutonium. Half life.

Well I'm guessing that strontium or plutonium aren't really mentioned as part of the Fukushima disaster that there is some major conspiracy or it's in insignificant quantities for anyone to care.
Of the two cesium isotopes I only considered the worse one.
Barring the occasional glowing fish I don't see it...
http://www.world-nuclear.org/informatio ... ident.aspx
bladecar wrote: The battery ingredients are not consumed and Musk intends to have a specialised recycling plant on the manufacturing site to recycle returned batteries and turn them into new ones

Very few things are actually 'consumed' barring fission and fusion reactions.
The issue is weather we are changing our environment detrimentally.
So closing the loop is important.
Pumping out batteries in Gigafactories maybe no better for the environment, and ultimately us, if it is detrimentally affecting the environment.
May as well just pump the coal out now and not worry about the batteries.
That's why I ask has a study been done?
100 years time Tesla's place in history may be no better than the coal industry.

bladecar wrote:Edited to make it so much better than it was.

Image I say just go for it.
You shouldn't care what I say, or anyone here says; we all have opinions.
We'll some people don't - but they're boring Image
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Post by Richo » Tue, 18 Apr 2017, 21:21

Oops I forgot to mention we loose Helium.
But that really isn't a 'consumption'.
No more party balloons Image
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Post by bladecar » Tue, 18 Apr 2017, 23:06

"Summary: A large amount of contaminated water has accumulated on site and has been treated to remove all but traces of tritium, which limits the potential to release treated water to the sea. Some radioactivity has been released to the sea, but this has mostly been low-level and it has not had any significant impact beyond the immediate plant structures. Concentrations outside these structures have been below regulatory levels since April 2011."

What a wonderful site you pointed to, Richo. The Nuclear Industry.

Everyone else, check out Utube, check out European, Australian and occasional Japanese scientists. Use Fukushima as the search word.
Don't watch too much of it.

Richo, come back and say some more stuff. Fascinating, or as that great Chinese detective from 'Get Smart' would say, "Amazing".


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Post by Richo » Wed, 19 Apr 2017, 20:56

Yes the nuclear industry is highly regulated like everything else.
So you're going with conspiracy/coverup?

Here is a couple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnmsxw3yxOE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lVmNkFh5hI
Seems overly sensationalised to me.
I wouldn't consider youtube a reliable source of factual information.
Do you have any specific ones that would help me change my mind?

The supplied evidence/facts suggests it's 1/10th the tragedy of Chernobyl.
Don't get me wrong it's still a tragedy.
But in all reality having a kickstarter fund wont help suck radioactive particles out of the ocean.

To me is seems they are doing what they can.
About all I can do it tell them to go faster?!?
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