Siemens 1PV5138-4WS24

AC, DC, amps, volts and kilowatt. It's all discussed in here
TooQik
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Post by TooQik » Mon, 13 May 2013, 22:28

Hi,

Long time reader and first time poster on this forum.

I'm looking at doing an EV conversion and have been going through the process of selecting a motor. I was set to order an AFM-140 but unfortunately missed the boat with their merge with GKN, so I'm now looking at other options.

Presently I'm looking at the Siemens 1PV5138-4WS24. Has anyone here had experience with this motor and are there any special considerations I should be aware of with it's use?

I'm also quite open to input on controller selection for this motor. While I would like to use the Tritium Wavesculptor 200 the DC voltage supported by this controller is too small, consequently the Rinehart PM150DZ would be my current choice.

Thanks in advance.

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Post by celectric » Tue, 14 May 2013, 00:40

A bunch of us picked up the 1PV5135-4WS14, for which the Tritium WS200 is quite well suited, after the Azure Dynamics liquidation; so there's a few people in Aus doing conversions with a motor in the same family. None of us have progressed very far so we probably don't have a huge amount of specific advice to offer. You might want to consider the advice in the "what not to do" thread regarding the difficulties of high-voltage conversions.
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Post by jonescg » Tue, 14 May 2013, 03:07

Yeah, sorry to hear you missed the Evo deadline. Hopefully if enough people want them they will get produced en mass. We'd still need to order 10,000 of them though :(

High volts are more hazardous than low volts, for sure. But if you design your power train well, you can minimise any risk of stuff going bad. I will be posting a build thread up on my electric race bike here on the AEVA forum, with particular attention to be paid to detailing my pack voltage, inverter and motor selection.

As for alternative powerful AC motors, a re-wound industrial motor can work well, but the real winner will be an affordable, liquid cooled AC motor.
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Post by TooQik » Tue, 14 May 2013, 17:48

Thanks for the quick replies.

I've had a read through the "what not to do" thread (thanks celectric). I agree that the higher voltage path is potentially a more dangerous one but I believe that anything to do with electricity is dangerous and you can design around this (Echoing some of your reply here jonescg).

I should state that I'm looking for a single motor configuration to be used in a dual purpose daily drive / hillclimb (motorsport) vehicle. I've looked at DC and AC, low voltage and high voltage and each time I choose a motor I always seem to end up with a high voltage AC as my prefered motor.

Like everything in life, this build will be a compromise between what I want, what I can get and what I can afford. Image

Look forward to reading about your race bike build jonescg.

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Post by celectric » Tue, 14 May 2013, 18:32

I don't intend to try and discourage you from a high-voltage conversion necessarily, but it's worth understanding what you're getting into. coulomb and later Renard alluded to it in that thread but I want to reiterate - the problems with high-voltage conversions are not just with safety, but also with getting components in addition to the motor (BMS, charger, DC/DC converter, contactors, fuses, etc) which are appropriately rated. Don't underestimate the degree to which higher voltage reduces your choice of components and hence increases the cost and complexity of your conversion.

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Post by Johny » Tue, 14 May 2013, 18:48

On the other hand, keeping to around 600 VDC allows use of 650-700 VDC Fuses which are not difficult to get. The EV-200 vacuum contactors, also not hard to get, and by centre-tapping the pack you can run 240 VAC 20Amp SWPSs as DC-DCs (two of them) - quite a cheap way to do it.

By keeping the +300 and -300 volt sides of the pack pretty separate and just coming together after the contactors at the controller, the safety concerns are reduced a lot.

There are two major areas of concern.
- Motor controller that handle 700 VDC (peak pack) are on the rare side.
- Fast charge stations have to be catered for by paralleling the two packs "halves".

All of course In My Opinion.

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Post by Stiive » Tue, 14 May 2013, 18:52

TooQik wrote: I always seem to end up with a high voltage AC as my prefered motor.


Worth noting the 1PV5135 motor is only rated for 300VDC
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Post by Stiive » Tue, 14 May 2013, 18:54

Stiive wrote:
TooQik wrote: I always seem to end up with a high voltage AC as my prefered motor.


Worth noting the 1PV5135 motor is only rated for 300VDC


oops you are referring to 1PV5138. Maybe try a 5135 :P
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Post by TooQik » Tue, 14 May 2013, 20:22

celectric wrote: Don't underestimate the degree to which higher voltage reduces your choice of components and hence increases the cost and complexity of your conversion.
Appreciate the sentiment and totally agree regarding reduced choices of components and elevated costs for HV. As for increasing the complexity, if properly rated components are available then I don't see any increase in complexity between a LV or HV system. If you have to use lower rated components to obtain your goals, then yes, complexity is increased.
Johny wrote:There are two major areas of concern.
- Motor controller that handle 700 VDC (peak pack) are on the rare side.
- Fast charge stations have to be catered for by paralleling the two packs "halves".
Thanks for the input Johny. I've noticed that you are one of a few members who have actually done a build around or in excess of 600 VDC: coulomb, weber and jonescg being other members I'm aware of who are also in the process of doing the same (if there are any others I've missed please let me know). Controller choice is definitely limited in this region. Fast charging is not something that is on my list of considerations.

Coulomb and Weber both allude to a 900V version of the Tritium Wavesculptor. Does anyone know if this is a readily available product or a one off modification or test unit?
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Post by Richo » Tue, 14 May 2013, 20:54

TooQik wrote: if there are any others I've missed please let me know


ACmotor - who was the FIRST used 500+ volts
no-one else comes to mind Image

What about the Carbon motor as an option?
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Post by TooQik » Wed, 15 May 2013, 00:18

Richo wrote:ACmotor - who was the FIRST used 500+ volts

What about the Carbon motor as an option?
Cheers for that.

I had a look at the Carbon when I first started my serious research (early 2012). I then stumbled onto the EVO motors while reading through this forum and the AFM-140 outperformed the Carbon in price, power and weight.

Now that I'm back to square one there's no reason not to take a second look at the Carbon. When comparing it to the 1PV5138-4WS24 the Carbon trumps the Siemens in weight, max torque is around the same between the two and the Siemens trumps the Carbon in power output and price. The other consideration would be whether the move down to 450 VDC for the Carbon would offset the added expense of going with a 650 VDC system. All food for my thought. Image

I've also been looking at the YASA motors.

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Post by jonescg » Wed, 15 May 2013, 00:38

Brace yourself for the price on the Yasa Image I enquired with them around the same time I looked at the Evo. 7000 pounds. The Evo was only 5700 pounds. Despite the impressive power to weight, the Yasa needs more substantial cooling equipment and there is some level of customisation required with the output shaft. But yes, they are a phenominal motor on paper. I keep saying when the Evo eventually gets transplanted into my CRX conversion, I'll drop a Yasa into the bike. Right after I win lotto Image.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 15 May 2013, 03:35

TooQik wrote: Coulomb and Weber both allude to a 900V version of the Tritium Wavesculptor. Does anyone know if this is a readily available product or a one off modification or test unit?

It's between those two extremes right now Image

It's definitely not production as of May 2013, as far as a motor controller is concerned. I've heard that they've made plenty of the 900 V version (ironically, perhaps more than the 450 V versions); they form part of the 50 kW fast DC chargers Tritium are working on. So the issue is testing on real-world motors, getting a ~ 900 V pack together, and so on. Unfortunately, the EV hobbyist market isn't strong enough to command a lot of Tritium's resources just now.
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Post by TooQik » Wed, 15 May 2013, 19:51

jonescg wrote:Brace yourself for the price on the Yasa Image
Yes, they're definitely not the cheapest unit around at the moment.
coulomb wrote:
TooQik wrote: Coulomb and Weber both allude to a 900V version of the Tritium Wavesculptor. Does anyone know if this is a readily available product or a one off modification or test unit?
It's between those two extremes right now Image

It's definitely not production as of May 2013, as far as a motor controller is concerned.
Appreciate the info coulomb. May I ask what you're going to use to run the MX-5 with 720 VDC onboard until the 900 VDC units become available?

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Post by woody » Wed, 15 May 2013, 20:18

I think they are going to run the two 360V packs in parallel to make a 360V system.
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 16 May 2013, 00:46

TooQik wrote: May I ask what you're going to use to run the MX-5 with 720 VDC onboard until the 900 VDC units become available?

Yes, as Woody says, we run the two half-packs in parallel.

We've gone to some trouble to make sure each half-pack has the same number of cells; this constrains how many cells can go in which box, and how many cells we have in total. The wiring is also arranged so that it's moderately easy to change: we make minor changes in one contactor box (even the cable lengths were carefully considered so a cable can reach to either of two positions), and we have to reverse three contactors, and connect them to the other end of the pack. This latter is unfortunately necessary for safety. The exact details escape me at present. But it should be about a two hour job to convert from parallel to series, or vice versa. Hopefully, we'll only change once.

Keeping the half-packs the same voltage also helps with the DC/DC, charger, and heater, all of which are paired and operate on half the pack voltage.
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Post by TooQik » Thu, 16 May 2013, 19:51

Cheers Woody and thanks for the confirmation coulomb.

There are a couple of the 1PV5138-4WS24 motors on ebay currently asking for $5000 USD each for a new motor. Taking into consideration just the asking price for these motors, would people here think that is a good price, or even too good of a price (ie. be wary)?

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Post by Stiive » Thu, 16 May 2013, 20:52

TooQik wrote: There are a couple of the 1PV5138-4WS24 motors on ebay currently asking for $5000 USD each for a new motor. Taking into consideration just the asking price for these motors, would people here think that is a good price, or even too good of a price (ie. be wary)?


I'd go with the 1PV5135 at half the cost... Not only would you save money on the motor, but also on the controller + auxiliary equip such as DC/DC converters.
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Post by BigMouse » Thu, 16 May 2013, 22:40

Stiive wrote:
TooQik wrote: I'd go with the 1PV5135 at half the cost... Not only would you save money on the motor, but also on the controller + auxiliary equip such as DC/DC converters.


What's the latest source for these anyway?

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Post by Stiive » Thu, 16 May 2013, 22:43

BigMouse wrote:
Stiive wrote:
TooQik wrote: I'd go with the 1PV5135 at half the cost... Not only would you save money on the motor, but also on the controller + auxiliary equip such as DC/DC converters.


What's the latest source for these anyway?


No idea... I'm thinking of selling one of mine though because I'm using my servo motor as a dyno. PM if your interested
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Post by BigMouse » Fri, 17 May 2013, 01:00

Stiive wrote:No idea... I'm thinking of selling one of mine though because I'm using my servo motor as a dyno. PM if your interested


Don't really need one at the moment. I was just curious. A motor rated to 10,000rpm is very tempting, but I'd never get there on the voltage I'm going to be running (360vdc), at least not with any level of performance beyond 2-3k.

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Post by Jodie » Fri, 17 May 2013, 03:34

Stiive wrote:
BigMouse wrote:
Stiive wrote:

What's the latest source for these anyway?


No idea... I'm thinking of selling one of mine though because I'm using my servo motor as a dyno. PM if your interested


How much do you want for it Stiive, ill PM you
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Post by Stiive » Fri, 17 May 2013, 03:48

BigMouse wrote:
Stiive wrote:No idea... I'm thinking of selling one of mine though because I'm using my servo motor as a dyno. PM if your interested


Don't really need one at the moment. I was just curious. A motor rated to 10,000rpm is very tempting, but I'd never get there on the voltage I'm going to be running (360vdc), at least not with any level of performance beyond 2-3k.


The motor is rated at 300VDC max. You can get 10k RPM at full power with sag at that voltage Image
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Post by BigMouse » Fri, 17 May 2013, 03:55

Stiive wrote: The motor is rated at 300VDC max. You can get 10k RPM at full power with sag at that voltage Image
It's torque I'm interested in. Also, I never understood why they give an ACIM a DC voltage rating. That tells me nothing. Give me an AC voltage and a base frequency. I'm guessing they only intended it to be used with a (their) matched controller.

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Post by TooQik » Fri, 17 May 2013, 06:26

Stiive wrote:I'd go with the 1PV5135 at half the cost... Not only would you save money on the motor, but also on the controller + auxiliary equip such as DC/DC converters.
The reason I'm looking at the 1PV5138-4WS24 is due to the similarity in torque and power figures when compared to the AFM-140 I was looking at buying originally (albiet with about 80kgs more weight). The 1PV5135-4WS14 while being a lighter and lower voltage unit than the 1PV5138 just doesn't compare to the AFM-140 unfortunately.

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