PIP-4048MS inverter

Introductions, general chit chat and off-topic banter.
paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 16:32

I built a TL494 PWM speed control for my truck radiator fans many years ago and had failures of fets (100v rated), current was around 50amps with 2 fans I put it on my CRO and saw spikes over 100v, I had some 16v 5watt zeners I put one across the fets now over 10years later under the bonnet in the heat and still going strong.
Maybe a 60-70v zener will work here?

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2218
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 18:23

paulvk wrote: ... Maybe a 60-70v zener will work here?

Hi Paul. Unfortunately the existing MOSFETs (and my proposed 100 V replacements) have zeners built in to them. They are referred to as "avalanche" diodes in the datasheets because technically the "zener" effect only operates at voltages below about 10 volts. But clearly this hasn't saved them.

They can only absorb a certain amount of energy per spike; 200 millijoules in the case of the existing MOSFETs, assuming the spikes don't come too close together. 200 mJ might not sound like much, but if the spike only lasts for 10 microseconds, that's 20 kilowatts or 267 amps at 75 volts. Which argues that any overvoltage had to last significantly longer than 10 us. Which argues for the unstable voltage-control-loop theory and against the voltage-spike theory, now that I think about it.
Last edited by weber on Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 07:25, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

andys
Groupie
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 20 Jul 2016, 19:44
Real Name: Andrew Snow
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 18:33

Given the terribly slow reaction times of the rest of the system (eg. turn off appliance and it takes 10 seconds to ramp down solar input when the battery is already full and supposed to be on float charge)...

It sounds highly plausible to me that it doesn't react fast enough with sudden loads applied with unfortunate timing.

paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 21:53

Had diodes in my mosfets but they still died I even tried transorb diodes these also died but the metal stud zener lives on doing the job.
Note the zener diode is across the fet not on the gates.
The spikes may be back emf from the transformer.

"takes 10 seconds to ramp down solar input" I do not see this on my systems.
Last edited by paulvk on Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 11:01, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2218
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 22:19

paulvk wrote:... I had some 16v 5watt zeners I put one across the fets now over 10years later under the bonnet in the heat and still going strong.

I think you'll find your stud mount zener is rated at considerably more than 5 watts. All MOSFETs have diodes built in, but not all have avalanche (aka "zener") diodes built in. And yes, I meant drain to source, as I assumed you did.
Last edited by weber on Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 11:21, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Brisbane

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 16 Feb 2017, 01:55

Today I had our Imiev in the shed and was charging it (usually I charge it in the garage from the houses selectronic inverter) in the shed today it was charging from the pip 3200w load.

I had the issue again as the imiev started to ramp down it's charge rate near 100% SOC the pip went Into a cycle where the voltage would swing from 215v -240v cycling up and down.

I have charged a few times over the past few years from the pip but it's only been a mid charge top up for a few hrs so didn't encounter the issue.

I think I will avoid using it to charge the imiev for now due to this behaviour.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3020
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 17 Feb 2017, 21:48

offgridQLD wrote: I had the issue again as the imiev started to ramp down it's charge rate near 100% SOC the pip went Into a cycle where the voltage would swing from 215v -240v cycling up and down.

Not in the same league, but I have noticed a small number of loads seem to upset the PIP's inverter:
  • Atten 858D hot air gun (variable temperature)
  • Kmart induction cooker
When I say "upset", I just notice the LED lights flickering slightly. Nothing to be concerned about, unless yo are prone to epilepsy I suppose.

Anyone else noticed any other loads that cause the inverter's voltage to fluctuate slightly?

[ Edit: inducxtion heater -> induction cooker ]
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 17 Feb 2017, 15:13, edited 1 time in total.
Learning how to patch PIP-4048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Brisbane

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 18 Feb 2017, 01:10

I should add that is wasn't just the voltage swing up and down on the display the load was jumping up and down to.

It's like the pip is controlling the pilot signal to the imievs charger and make it ramp up and down.Though it's only triggered when the charger varies the charge rate.

Not always as every time you start the charge it slowly ramps up and it never gets upset with this ramp up. Its only the ramp down at the end.

That said some times the imiev pauses the charge mid charge for a few mins and then continues to charge (normal behavior) The pip will get upset by this as the charger ramps up again to continue charging.

So it's a bit of a oddball thing.So you cant charge the car untended encase it gets into this cycle.

heat guns and induction cookers upset most inverter a little I have a fixed setting heat gun that's ok but the variable one is no good on the inverter.

andys
Groupie
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 20 Jul 2016, 19:44
Real Name: Andrew Snow
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Mon, 20 Feb 2017, 18:57

Stumbled on this today, serves as a reminder what nice things you can have when you pay over twice as much:

Very similar specs to PIP4048, but with 35W idle. Even supports Li/LiFePO4 packs. Can't be daisy chained.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... rol-EN.pdf

andys
Groupie
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed, 20 Jul 2016, 19:44
Real Name: Andrew Snow
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Mon, 20 Feb 2017, 19:09

Yes coulumb, I discovered my fridge lights flickering badly at about 10Hz the other day, through a process of elimination found out it was the Sunbeam slow cooker (crock pot).

I thought it was just a simple resistive heating element of around 500 watts. I won't use it on the PIP anymore.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2218
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 20 Feb 2017, 21:29

I suspect the common theme in all these appliances that upset the PIP is that they use phase control and so may have spikey current waveforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-fired_controllers
Last edited by weber on Mon, 20 Feb 2017, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Mon, 20 Feb 2017, 22:04

I have a K-Mart induction unit , I also have some harmonic filters.
I will see if I get the problem and see if the filter fixes it.

PlanB
Senior Member
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat, 16 Jan 2010, 15:24
Real Name: Kris McLean
Location: Freemans reach
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PlanB » Tue, 21 Feb 2017, 22:39

There was a mob in Melbourne (power & interference consultants I think) used to flog a portable ferroresonant line conditioner back in the 90s (couple of hundred bucks from memory). Very effective deglitcher, about he size of a housebrick, weighed 3 times as much! Be interesting to see if the harmonic filters do any good, the ferroresonant was a bit lossy.

paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Wed, 22 Feb 2017, 02:19

I tried the induction unit today-
It is not harmonics causing a problem its the on/off switching of the load the PIP has to try and keep the voltage at 230v with a load that is going on & off so it goes over/under voltage while trying to keep up.
I see the same thing when my fridge starts a drop in voltage for less than a second.
Inverters with big iron transformers would have less problems due to the energy stored in the transformer core.
The only solution would be a big auto transformer!

Note I have voltage , current and Kw Hour meters on the input and output, this has also shown me that the 230v shown by the PIP is 227v , the incoming mains voltage is also high by 3v (calibrated the meters so they are correct) , this is on more than one unit so something is not correct maybe a software fault.

User avatar
Tejota
Noobie
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 12:07
Real Name: MDKTejota
Location: Spain
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Wed, 22 Feb 2017, 11:47

coulomb wrote:
Tejota wrote: 32 param is bulk charging time. Options: Automatic (default) or time (5-900 minutes)

Tejota, I'm interested in how parameter/setting 32 is supposed to work.

My reading of the firmware is that it is intended to be a *maximum* absorb time. So if you set 20 minutes, the absorb phase could last for anything from 10 minutes to 20 minutes, depending on if and when the current falls below a threshold for 10 minutes without exception.

Can I ask what is the source of your information? I can't find any manual that mentions setting 32.

In another post, you state that setting 32 could be used for equalisation. I suppose that during equalisation, the current will be high, so it's unlikely that the battery current will fall below the threshold before the time on the absorb setting has expired, but it might. Perhaps that's OK for equalisation, I'm not very experienced with lead acid batteries. Does the documentation mention equalisation? Is this perhaps its primary function?


Sorry ... I read this post now...
Source is manual PIP 4048MS manual Version 2.1. This manual was in pip4048ms manufactured on 8-2016.
Take a look pag 30 ---> Manual pip4048msversion2.1

PlanB
Senior Member
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat, 16 Jan 2010, 15:24
Real Name: Kris McLean
Location: Freemans reach
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PlanB » Wed, 22 Feb 2017, 14:19

Does the problem still occur at sites with 2 or 3 pips running in parallel?

paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Wed, 22 Feb 2017, 14:35

Have to wait till next week when I get back to my 2 PIP system.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1783
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Brisbane

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 22 Feb 2017, 14:43

"
I suspect the common theme in all these appliances that upset the PIP is that they use phase control and so may have spikey current waveforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-fired_controllers"

Yes, I agree with that thanks for the link.

"Inverters with big iron transformers would have less problems due to the energy stored in the transformer core.
The only solution would be a big auto transformer!"

I have to inverters to compare with. One is the PIP4048 and the other is the selectronic that has a HUGE transformer and 75kg of heft.Rear cover off in the pic.
Image

along with 17 x 80v 4700uf caps to back it up
Image

Surprisingly I'm finding that the pip is actually very good with large spiky loads. It actually seems to start large motors better than the selectronic. I find Some of my heat guns that most likely have a Triac cause issues on the selectronics (lights flickering) though no issue on the PIP. My Ev charger that isn't a spiky load but is a soft ramping (variable) runs fine on the selectronics but the PIP gets into a loop cycle chasing the voltage up and down.

Our portable induction hotplate has a slight buzz or hum to it at the device when powered from the selectronics but no issue on the PIP.

Its like there are positives and negatives of a higher frequency inverter over the lower frequancy selectronics
Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed, 22 Feb 2017, 03:51, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3020
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Wed, 22 Feb 2017, 16:24

Tejota wrote: Source is manual PIP 4048MS manual Version 2.1. This manual was in pip4048ms manufactured on 8-2016... Manual pip4048msversion2.1

Wow, thanks for scanning that. I assumed that there must be a manufacturer provided non-scanned PDF somewhere.
Learning how to patch PIP-4048 inverter-chargers.

paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 02:35


Rusdy
Groupie
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon, 09 Jun 2014, 16:45
Real Name: Rusdy
Location: Australia
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Rusdy » Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 16:54

offgridQLD wrote: "
Its like there are positives and negatives of a higher frequency inverter over the lower frequancy selectronics


Boy oh boy, the more reason I can't wait for the high voltage DC bus standard to come out (in the US 380VDC seems to be proposed). Although in my opinion 325VDC is much more do-able (straight rectification of 230VAC).

Anyhoo, I was trying to do the same experiment with this guy from Indonesia (youtube link), he experimented with several home appliances to run directly on DC.

I myself tried to power up my Ikea induction cooker (boy, they're cheap and work so well, good looking too) to no avail from my 250VDC supply (where as other wide voltage power supply work like a charm).

My guess more and more electronics these days have zero crossing detector in it. Me no happy Image

Would be nice if I can charge my EV straight from DC bus... oh well, I can dream on...

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 2984
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Richo » Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 20:58

I would have thought its the SCR's that require the negative voltage to turn on/off.
It's the cheapest way to switch(pwm) mains.

Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 2984
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Richo » Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 21:03

So guess the rangehood may power up but not turn on the fan for the same reason.
Dremel, drills etc etc...
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

JvdSpoel
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun, 19 Feb 2017, 04:08
Real Name: Johan
Location: Male

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by JvdSpoel » Fri, 24 Feb 2017, 06:07

Hi All,

I have a PCM60x 3KW charge controller - basically the CCC of the PIP inverter.

I have upgraded the inverters CPU 2 to version 4 - and to ensure that the PCM is on the same level - I upgraded it as well.

The problem is I realised that there is a piece of code missing to drive the display unit on the PCM.

Anybody who can help me with the firmware for the PCM unit so that I can restore my unit.

Thanks all - learned a lot on this forum.
Johan



JPS

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3020
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 24 Feb 2017, 19:37

This post describes the external changes in official firmware 72.70, as I see them. There doesn't seem to be official documentation on these, other than the booklets provided with new machines; Tejota has kindly posted a scan of such a manual (8.4 MB).

[ Edit: there is now also a non-scanned version in this post. ]

1a) There is a new setting 32, which is called "bulk charging time (C. V stage). "Bulk" is really the wrong word here, since it applies to the absorb stage. When setting 32 is set to "Aut", the behaviour is as it was before. Transition from absorb stage to float occurs when two criteria are met for ten minutes with no exceptions. The first criterion is that the battery voltage exceeds the float setting less half a volt; this is actually a bug due to a typographical error in the source code. Thus, the charging bug remains, and we will be releasing a patched 72.70 firmware to correct it soon. The other criterion is that the charge current must have fallen below the total charge current setting (setting 02) divided by five. So in effect, "Aut" does not determine a fixed absorb time, but rather when the charge current falls below a threshold, as with earlier firmware.

1b) If not set to "Aut" (automatic), this is essentially the amount of time in minutes that the charger (solar, utility, or both together) will spend in the absorb stage. The absorb stage begins when the battery voltage exceeds the CV setting (setting 26) less half a volt for 10 seconds with no exceptions. (If the battery voltage falls below that threshold during the ten seconds, the counter is cleared and the ten second period starts again from zero.) Once started, the absorb stage ends when the time expires, regardless of what the battery voltage does. For example, you might set 10 minutes of absorb, only to find that eight of the ten minutes are ineffective due to cloud and/or load conditions. This new bug is also fixed in the patched 72.70 firmware.

2) There is a new setting 38, which if enabled, turns on the "dry contact" relay when the inverter is in battery mode, and turns it off otherwise. The intention is to connect the dry contact to an external relay that connects the inverter's neutral output to system earth when in battery mode. When setting 38 is set to "DiS" (disabled), it retains its normal function, which is essentially on when the battery is weak. This is all explained pretty well on page 10 of the new manual, in the section titled "Dry Contact Signal".

3) There is an additional way to exit the float stage and recommence bulk charging. The main way to exit float and start charging again is the same as with earlier firmware versions: the battery voltage has to be more than 4 volts below the float setting (setting 27) for one second without exception.

The other way to exit float stage and re-commence bulk charging is as follows. The battery voltage has to be more than 0.1 volts below the float setting (setting 27) for 30 minutes. During that 30 minutes, if it rises above this threshold, there is a penalty of 2 seconds for every second that it is above that threshold. So for example, the battery could spend a total of 50 minutes below the threshold and a total of 10 minutes above (with the ten minutes scattered throughout the 60 minute period), and the charger would restart bulk charging. It could also spend a total of 60 minutes below and a total of 15 minutes above, and so on (60 - 2x15 = 30 minutes). The penalty ceases when the total time reaches zero; at zero, the whole process starts again.

There are other minor changes to the firmware, mainly to support these new settings, that I hope to detail in a separate post. These three changes seem to be the most visible changes to most users.

[ Edit: added section 1a, mentioned the new bug with fixed absorb times. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Sat, 25 Feb 2017, 15:58, edited 1 time in total.
Learning how to patch PIP-4048 inverter-chargers.

Post Reply