Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

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IVI
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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by IVI » Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 15:30

Could this guy's "liquid metal" batteries
be useful in EV's, 'wouldn't be surprised.

Have a look & tell us what you think:

YATT: http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway ... nergy.html

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by Johny » Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 17:00

Not that I have any issue with the number of MIT researchers who leave MIT with a pocket full of gold...

The sales pitch bothers me. Someone tell me I'm being paranoid and I'm wrong - please!
Last edited by Johny on Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by weber » Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 18:03

IVI wrote: Could this guy's "liquid metal" batteries
be useful in EV's, 'wouldn't be surprised.

Have a look & tell us what you think:

YATT: http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway ... nergy.html


If you haven't already, don't waste your time sitting through the above 20 minute video which is mainly Sadoway telling us what a clever, noble and funny guy he is. You can read the basic structure of the battery in 30 seconds here
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22116/.

Don't bother with the video on this page either. The hopeful looking diagram that fronts it is never mentioned. And don't bother with the comments at the end -- they are mostly moronic.

No. They could not be useful in EVs. The two electrodes are liquids and so is their separator. The 3 layers are kept separated only by gravity acting on their different densities. i.e. They are just floating on top of each other.

Go around a corner or over big bump and you could have an internal short, and bang! Molten metal at 700°C flying everywhere.

There are EV batteries that use liquid layers (sodium-sulfur and Zebra), but the layers are separated by a solid separator, and they operate at only about 300°C.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 21:49

weber wrote: If you haven't already, don't waste your time sitting through the above 20 minute video which is mainly Sadoway telling us what a clever, noble and funny guy he is. You can read the basic structure of the battery in 30 seconds here.
dont bother wasting your time reading the rest of that post its nothing more than someone letting off steam about someone else barging about him self
No. They could not be useful in EVs. The two electrodes are liquids and so is their separator. The 3 layers are kept separated only by gravity acting on their different densities. i.e. They are just floating on top of each other.

Go around a corner or over big bump and you could have an internal short, and bang! Molten metal at 700°C flying everywhere.


boy you realy carnt think out side the box can you

no you carnt use them in the car BUT you could use them at home to store the power you generate so when you get home you can charge your car
Last edited by Adverse Effects on Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 10:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by Johny » Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 22:02

Adverse Effects wrote:boy you realy carnt think out side the box can you
Image

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by weber » Tue, 27 Mar 2012, 22:12

Adverse Effects wrote: boy you realy carnt think out side the box can you

no you carnt use them in the car BUT you could use them at home to store the power you generate so when you get home you can charge your car


On the contrary, I find it much harder to think when I'm inside a box. Image

But it has nothing to do with thinking inside or outside of boxes. It has to do with answering the question, which was whether they could be useful in EVs.

It turns out that this chemistry is only 69% efficient and only 0.44 V per cell. But hey, it's a really cool idea. Here's the paper with the technical info.
http://sadoway.mit.edu/wordpress/wp-con ... me/141.pdf
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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by IVI » Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 03:01

Well, if you can persuade your employer to let you access your own patent (as, I suppose, this talk's speaker has done), creating a Start-Up company & owning (to use, rather than to shelve) that intellectual property (IP) can actually help keep a good technology (if this is good) available to be applied (& even advanced), in EV's, etc.

(In "Who Killed the Electric Car?" doco, an engineer's battery patent was purchased & the technology killed, as I recall. Do you want Big Oil to be going around killing & burying every new battery technology that appears?

I, for one, do not, so I don't mind that inventors, even those who happen to be MIT professors earn from their inventions & IP.)

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by IVI » Thu, 29 Mar 2012, 03:10

Good point! In fact, the inventor of this "liquid battery" has already got a design for transporting larger versions of this battery in containers or long truck boxes.

Any design starts out a bit fuzzy... it then gets -customized- to each application.

Of course, the article isn't focused on EV's, instead on storing renewable energy, eg, from wind-generators.

The video shows photos of several early prototypes, as well as a (future) container version.

(Don't let another's residual "tall poppy syndrome" keep you from watching it... inform yourself, and let others fall behind, if they choose. ;-)

And... I thought "TPS" went out in the 1980's...

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by weber » Tue, 10 Apr 2012, 05:28

IVI wrote: Good point! In fact, the inventor of this "liquid battery" has already got a design for transporting larger versions of this battery in containers or long truck boxes.
Er, yes, but he isn't proposing to transport them while molten!
(Don't let another's residual "tall poppy syndrome" keep you from watching it... inform yourself, and let others fall behind, if they choose. ;-)

Dear IVI,

It has nothing to do with tall poppy syndrome. I informed myself, by tracking down the peer reviewed scientific paper, which made it clear that the TED talk was mostly hype intended to attract funding. If you'd done a bit of digging you would have found an interview in which Sadoway specifically says they are not suited to EVs. So my earlier post was aimed at giving EVers back 20 minutes of their life.

I give praise where it's due. And when I criticise, I don't hide behind an anonymous membership like you and "Adverse Effects". You can readily find that my real name is Dave Keenan and my home page is http://dkeenan.com. You can even find my street address and come knock on my door.

Hey Adverse, how are these for thinking outside the box?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICLkuwWO9tU
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/swimming-ponds/
http://sagittal.org/
http://dkeenan.com/CO/index.htm
http://dkeenan.com/Music/StereoDekany.htm
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by IVI » Fri, 20 Apr 2012, 05:07

Your reply started out in a way, which got my expectations up that I might receive the benefit of your greater-than-moi's research...

If I have missed a talk, a paper, a point or a web page, just contribute the link(s) or why not just -mention- the fact(s), that you found at some of those links; -that's- fair debating.

But your fallacious (eg, Ad Hominem) attack (ie, trying to make one's choice of anonymity an argument for or against, in this debate) won't win you any respect from me... nor, I trust, from other -thinking- people.

----

As an aside, after leaving the above debate, for a brief moment:

1. I see that attack as being inconsistent with your (claimed) tolerance:

"Religious tolerance (including tolerance of atheism)" (from your web site)

+ I happen to -believe- in "Identity Theft," and,
+ I -proudly- take pre-emptive measures to prevent it.

2. While - in your verbal attack - you have only taken -one- step -towards- violence, that is more than enough for me, & I'm -not- convinced of your (claimed) non-violence:

"Nonviolent Direct Action" (again, from your web site)

3. I didn't notice your address, but - as you seem to be in Qld - you're too far to visit; thankfully, I would not want to make such a visit.

Better to debate - fairly - from afar, in this case, IMO.

----

Going back, now, to our topic of debate:

+ Some inventors do -not- see all the possible applications
+ of their inventions.

+ In this case, since the battery in question is said to "make heat"
+ as it works, that could be an advantage - at least in cooler seasons
+ of climates - as a source of safe, warmth for those in the car,
+ that might have a near-ZERO energy cost to utilise.

Let's hope (and -not- so I'll "win" any debates), that someone DOES
find a way to make this battery technology work - safely - in EV's.

In any case, only time will tell, for sure... more time that we have,
I would suggest, on the Planet... but I hope I'm wrong about that :-)

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by IVI » Fri, 20 Apr 2012, 05:19

PS I think I brought a couple Transputer eval boards (hosted, for power, in PC's?) along with the Occam development tools when I came to Oz, years ago.

(They might have needed to be connected, eg, via an Apple printer cable (or similar) so that you could see the advantages of their parallelism, with several boards in operation together. It's been a while...)

(I think my TP boards were made in the UK or N Amer...?)

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by Johny » Fri, 20 Apr 2012, 15:56

IVI wrote:But your fallacious (eg, Ad Hominem) attack (ie, trying to make one's choice of anonymity an argument for or against, in this debate) won't win you any respect from me... nor, I trust, from other -thinking- people.
I have typed about five different responses to this rubbish so far and deleted them again. I'll leave this one.

There you go Dave. It doesn't matter how much effort, thought and plain old good will you put in - some people just completely "don't get it". IVI, I respect Dave K. a great deal - and I've never met him.

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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by Adverse Effects » Sat, 21 Apr 2012, 06:06

weber wrote:Hey Adverse, how are these for thinking outside the box?

I don't hide behind an anonymous membership like you and "Adverse Effects"


90% of the people that know me call me that and i have been called that since i was about 12 when i dismantled mums vacuum cleaner 30+ years ago

and i some how dont think your full name is weber

well considering i almost died from a clot in my right lung about 3 months ago i am good

just some of my toys i have been making

my Quad-copter

52" cutting deck RC lawn mower
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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by Adverse Effects » Sat, 21 Apr 2012, 06:25

by the way you want to know my name?

PM me and i'll give you my address and i'll tell you in person face to face

i unlike most people am not dumb enough to put information about me on the net where it can be used to hijack my identity

and yes it happens all the time and with a name like mine i am 1 of only about 9 people in AU with this last name so it wouldn't be hard to get enough info to hijack it
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Full-Spectrun research => Miracle battery f EV's?

Post by antiscab » Sat, 21 Apr 2012, 14:02

Adverse Effects wrote:
no you carnt use them in the car BUT you could use them at home to store the power you generate so when you get home you can charge your car


there are better batteries around that can do that, for instance nickel iron is cheaper to make, more efficient and has a service life measured in decades

I'm not a fun of salt batteries due to poor efficiency and high operating temperatures.
The zebra batteries for instance can only survive 10 cold starts before the separator starts to fail

with a liquid separator, this is less of an issue, but as the temperature is much higher, it would be better not used at home.

IMO, if using a battery to power your house during a blackout, using the battery in your EV would be more cost effective, as you would not have a battery sitting around un-used most of the time.

as far as grid storage goes, this is not really necessary until penetration of renewables reaches 40% of generating capacity.

below 40% load shedding/raising is more effective.
Things like getting EVs, air cons and other inverter based loads to vary max power drawn with grid frequency

A smart grid is not even properly needed IMO (but very useful)

for a dump charge pack (use every once in a while), I plan to use the 12kwh worth of large format nimh cells I have in my car port (did someone say something about corporations killing a chemistry?)

EV batteries that are no longer able to power an EV also make good dump charge packs, as Rob has been doing for 2 years now.

nickel iron makes a good dump charge pack, but its low power density means it is better suited to a fast charge station :)

There may yet be a use for a liquid battery with 69% efficiency and 700 deg C operating temperature.

Redox was once going to be a great chemistry for EV's, but its energy density is the same as that of lead acid, so it has since fallen by the way side

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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