EV Highway Perth to Augusta to where-ever

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Post by photomac » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 07:22

I have no affiliation but just thinkun - http://www.e-station.com.au/chademocharge.html - would Nissan, Mitsubishi, AEVA and some government departments along with possibly Gull be prepared to collectively roll-out a line of these, payable at the "coffee" shop of the petrol stations. THey'd make more money from the coffees and choc-milks - just saying . . .
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Post by PlanB » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 16:15

Now there's a head scratcher for a lateral thinker, charging infrastructure for a country the size of the continental USA with just 10% of the population & probably 1% of the EVs. Oh & can we have 'em for free like Tesla super chargers? I see a time when we hear Miss Universe competitors say they want to cure world hunger & solve the EV charging dilemma.

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 17:03

Image
So you've counted the number of petrol stations between Perth and Margaret river then ?

To be fair. Oz probably also has far fewer 'highways' that would be candidates for EV charging than the US.
Just think of the millions of $ wasted IMHO on the EV charging trials in Oz, when the data already existed from far more EV savvy countries around the world. That money could have gone into EV takeup assistance or charging highways. We are end users, lets face it.

A WA highway , maybe 5 stations Mandurah, Bunbury, somewhere around Binningup, Busselton, Margret river would do it.

I'd use it.
I'd dump the ICE vehicle altogether.
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Post by jonescg » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 17:07

I have been working on this idea with several others, and it's not as crazy as you think. We're starting small - Perth to Augusta is one of the most popular travel routes in WA, and there's stacks of touristy things to do along the way.

Installing half a dozen fast DC charge points along the 350 km route would cost maybe $200k - Our state government has spent orders of magnitude more than this on all sorts of stuff, from waterfront developments to new stadiums. It's not a lot of money.

We're aiming to install one between Perth and Bunbury, and it looks like crowd-sourced money could cover it. Once the first one is installed and the potential is realised, others would fill in the gaps.

I guess the idea isn't all that complicated - we want to future-proof our long-distance transport by preparing for the eventual switch from gas to coulombs.
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Post by weber » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 17:24

How does anything like this happen? One installation at a time. So AEVA should concentrate on just getting one installed. As far as I know the Chademo (fast) chargers already installed in Australia are in capital cities, where no one needs them because they either work there or they live there, and in either case they can get an 8 hour (slow) charge.

The AEVA should be working on getting one installed in the single most useful location in Australia. Where would that be? Well it should be about halfway along a route that lots of people travel that is out of reach of a full charge but within reach if you can get a partial fast charge along the way. With current commercial EVs that means a distance of about 150 to 200 km. So the best place for a fast charge station will be 75 to 100 km from a capital city in the direction that is most travelled.

I'm thinking halfway along the Pacific Motorway between Sydney and Newcastle, at the freeway service centre just north of Wyong.
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Post by PlanB » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 17:37

I reckon 10 between Sydney & Melbourne, not huge dollars as you say. Will we call it the PlacedBetter system?

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Post by Johny » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 17:41

Ha ha! Image

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Post by photomac » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 21:12

If you target a infrastructure like a petrol station, they can profit from our "coffee" break. And be seen to be greening. It may be good for say Gull. Nissan and Mitsubishi can say they are no longer city bound as Weber rightly points out.   Perhaps it is more important for AEVA to promote this communal infrastructure rather than individual rebates on conversions. With infrastructure comes more freedom to do a conversion. Only solar panels and EVs attract an economic argument to self pay - silly - but - My calc's show me that the energy saving costs out weigh interest earnt on borrowing $35k, so if you can afford the principle then there is no limiting economic argument.
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Post by jonescg » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 21:18

Petrol stations have been somewhat resistant to the idea. Wineries, coffee shops, tourist information bureaus, slow food restaurants and the like are more likely to embrace it.

One of the local councils was offered a free charge station, but it required $5000 worth of trenching and cable run. They declined Image
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Post by notailpipe » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 21:33

As you all probably know UWA proposed an ‘Electric Highway’ as part of the UWA REV Project (http://therevproject.com/trials/highway.php), not sure that this is likely to happen now that the project has wound up (I believe).

It is an excellent idea, we would certainly use it.

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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 23 Oct 2013, 22:26

Trying to push for something that effects (at the moment) perhaps 1000 cars out of 15,000,000 isn't easy. Yes I know silly money has been spent on even crazier things.

I would love a fast charger on the sunshine coast and one say at the gold coast, both are about 100km from Brisbane. This would cover anyone's return trips north or south up and down the coast from Brisbane.

Lets face it most people don't have the time to drive (get away) more than that distance on the weekends anyhow and are at work during the week.

They have to be fast chargers the charge point changers we have now at the sunshine coast and gold coast are useless at 5hrs to replenish your pack and return home for each car (imiev). You need a charger at least 10 times as fast minimum.

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Post by PlanB » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 03:47

Oh the waste

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 04:00

Sure is a wast but I have come to expect that. They should have scrapped the 45 x 15A outlets they mentioned and just put two or three more fast charger instead.

What now do we have to show for that 100 million they spent?


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Post by acmotor » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 06:08

Well.... WA paid $16M for 4 x hydrogen fuel busses years back (fuel cell, electric motor) so there is budget for 'projects'. Kind of a waste. A few years later and we could have bought Tindoes and they would still be on the road.

We spent money in WA on AC charging stations that used 'politically proposed european connectors' and ignored the real manufacturers market like leaf, imiev, tesla and didn't install the J1772 system. That was a waste.

PlanB I hear you, but I would go much further with a 'demonstration' charging project despite presently limited user numbers.
I'd go for 5 fast charging stations that had PV collection and battery storage and could charge 10 EVs at a time not even connected to the grid ! That way it answers many of the critics re EV power source and range. I'd spend $500,000 each including the coffee shops.
That's $2.5M and it would be well spent for our future. IMHO   
BTW, that is the cost of one fully equiped petrol service station !
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Post by PlanB » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 14:24

Now you're talking. A shipping container full of batteries, a few kw of solar on the roof to keep 'em topped up, a CHAdeMO outlet (OK 2), plonk 'em at roadside rest areas, flashing led signage (charge at Tuan's), web based booking scheme....

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Post by weber » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 14:28

PlanB wrote: Oh the waste

Well found! For those who haven't followed the link, this is about a fast charge station in Ourimbah Street, Morisset, NSW. Why do you think it's a waste? Sure they didn't listen to everything I said Image, since they didn't put it between 75 and 100 km from the capital city. It's about 114 km from the Sydney GPO, so depending what side of Sydney you live on there may be some knuckle-biting about whether you'll make it. And you'll want a 100% charge before you set off, not the usual 80%. But it is only 1.8 km off the Pacific Motorway and it is opposite a coffee-shop and restaurant, albeit a McDonald's.

So c'mon Sydney EV'ers. Who will be first to report their first trip beyond the range of a single charge in one day. But do find out what "charge card" you need, before you go.

I realise this is getting a bit OT (I'm relying heavily on the "where-ever" in the title). But if the powers-that-be can point to this charge station at Morisset and say "Look, this one's ideally sited (i.e. across the road from Macca's) and still no one's using it", then you may have some trouble convincing them to install 5 or 10 along your favourite route.
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 14:41

Ok then I was under the impression it was almost double that distance from Sydney. Using the Jurassictest online app. I see it's 112km from Sydney. The app is saying that you will have 15.6% SOC remaining in a Nissan leaf and 5.9% SOC in a Imiev. This id at a average speed of 70kmh. This is taking elevation gain/loss into account to.

I find this app is usually reasonably accurate if you get the average speed correct - usual slower than you first think.

Kurt
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Post by weber » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 14:47

offgridQLD wrote: The app is saying that you will have 15.6% SOC remaining in a Nissan leaf and 5.9% SOC in a Imiev. This id at a average speed of 70kmh. This is taking elevation gain/loss into account to.

I find this app is usually reasonably accurate if you get the average speed correct - usual slower than you first think.

But not that slow. Most of this is on a 110 km/h freeway.
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Post by Johny » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 15:14

Interesting. If you reduce the speed down to 35km/h, the iMiev and Leaf are equal. Below 35km/h the iMiev exceeds the Leaf's range.
Be a tad annoying to other road users...
The only way I'd make it in the Vogue is at 49km/h.
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 15:25

Yes google maps is saying the 112km trip will take 1hr 30min in current traffic. So average speed would be just under 75kph.

Average speeds are always lower than you think.Traffic flow on the motorway is never a consistent thing and most people sit under the true GPS speed, slow downs from congestion and people who don't know how to merge, or braking due to people not reading the traffic flow it's a real dynamic thing. Along with the portion of the trip that's spent in 50,60,70,80kph zones. It doesn't take much to start knocking the average down.

So at that average speed the leaf would have 12% SOC and the Imiev 0.3% SOC. Both would make it but the Imiev would be in turtle mode.

I'm always surprised at how low my average speed is on the trip from Brisbane to the Sunshine coast as most if looks like it is motorway. I just go with the flow of traffic middle lane and the average speed over the 104km trip is always below 70kmh. Looking on the map you would guess it to be more like 90kmh or so.

It's not until you get s few hrs out of the big city's where you can start at 110kph and drive consistently at that speed for hrs on end and get high average speeds.

Kurt
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Post by weber » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 16:11

Hee hee, Johny. Cracked me up. Thanks. Image
offgridQLD wrote: Yes google maps is saying the 112km trip will take 1hr 30min in current traffic. So average speed would be just under 75kph.

Average speeds are always lower than you think.
But higher than you first thought.
It's not until you get s few hrs out of the big city's where you can start at 110kph and drive consistently at that speed for hrs on end and get high average speeds.

That's not true for Sydney going north. The M1 starts only 30 minutes from the GPO. If you ask google maps the average speed from "Pacific Motorway, Wahroonga" to "Pacific Motorway, Morisset" you'll find that over these 86 km it's 99 km/h, and if you then plug these locations and this average speed into the "Green Race" app http://www.jurassictest.ch/GR/ you'll find that this part of the journey alone would have the Leaf down to 20% and the iMiev down to 2%. So without annoying other drivers on the freeway, it's out of reach of an iMiev starting from the GPO. What a waste.
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Post by Tritium_James » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 16:28

PlanB wrote: Oh the waste


Probably even worse than you think - all those stations were put in by Better Place, require one of their cards to use, and probably aren't currently operational. Is there anyone nearby that could check?

So the 'might just make it' trip from Sydney is probably doomed to disappointment - you'll be stuck slow charging at the Maccas for 8 hours!

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 16:42

Ok then I can only agree with that. I guess a bit bigger battery wouldn't go astray at times.

I was just thinking the other day that train station car parks could make good locations for charge points and encourage more public transport.There is usually a good power infrastructure there to tap into but Even if they were just a stack of slow chargers at each station vs one fast charger. To me its one of the only places I would use a slow public charger. The parking is free and usually if you get on the train your going to be away from your car for some time.

Kurt
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Post by jonescg » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 16:46

On the flip side, is this not cause for car makers and DIY-builders to increase their battery capacities to suit some fairly common distances? I would have thought that 110 km at 110 km/h (average) is quite achievable.

In the case of Perth to Margs, our first site will need to be in or near Mandurah. Ravenswood would be perfect as it's near the river and there's a great pub and rest area there, but something closer to town would make sense too I suppose. This is about 90 km from Perth's northern suburbs, and only about 60 km from the southern suburbs. The charge wouldn't be much more than 20 mins for most 16-24 kWh packs.

I picked Balga as an example of a northern suburb, and the longest stretch is about 90 km. If you can't drive 90 km at highway speeds, your vehicle probably isn't going to be used for this trip.

Example map here
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 24 Oct 2013, 16:59

Well if you were in a 80kwh Tesla model S you would be just sipping the surface charge off the top of the pack Image

The trouble is with a big battery and big, fast & heavy car that fast charger starts to become not so fast anymore.

Kurt

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