Best way to charge??

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Best way to charge??

Post by Gabz » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 01:26

the pack needs to charge from low levels to full once every 3 months according to the manual. this is when it rebalances all the cells.

besides that it seems that it doesn't really matter except to avoid heat so a 8 hour overnight is better than the middle of a summers day.
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Post by coulomb » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 02:56

bindi wrote: I.e should I be driving it until turtle mode then plugging it in for 8 hours most days...
I would not be doing that. It would be unnecessarily hard on the battery.
or if I am home should I just keep in plugged in all night every night??
That's probably best, if you can tell it to charge to only 80%. Otherwise, I'd charge it when it reached around half.

Sadly, I don't own an EV, so others' opinions should probably hold more weight than mine.
Does they way we use the car and charge it have any impact on the battery life???
Certainly. Driving to very low SOC (State Of Charge) all the time, (unfortunately) using a lead foot all the time, charging the car when below freezing (certain battery chemistries), allowing the battery to frequently get hot, will all have an impact on battery life. Even leaving it for long periods at 100% SOC is not good for it (hence regularly charging to 80% when 100% isn't needed is a good practice).

That's not to say that you should obsess over these things, but knowing the hazards and trying to avoid them where it's easy to do so will improve battery life.
Is there anything else I should be doing with it?

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Your regular servicing schedule should take care of brakes and cooling fluid, but there are years between when these need to be done.
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Best way to charge??

Post by acmotor » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 05:47

I fully charge my i twice a day most days. Usually from between 1 and 5 bars remaining.
Once charge in the cool of night ( early hours of the morning )
The other charge in the day immediately after driving so I can make the return or other trips.
If it is hot then it is hot. I can't play nurse maid. But I believe malm is correct about minimising temperature. It may not be that important though compared to time at 100% SOC or high discharge rates ( heavy foot ).

If the i is not going to be driven that day then I plan ahead and leave it with 50 to 80% charge so it doesn't sit with 100% either by a short charge or by going for a drive. I never leave the i with less than 4bars for more than a couple of hours.
At nearly 60,000km I believe I have around 4% loss of capacity based on recharge kWh so how I am treating it can't be too bad.

Edit : I should note also that I have never been below 1 bar remaining and rarely get to 1 bar.
I believe that staying away for the ends of charge is good for battery life. The top end for least time is my preference.
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Post by carnut1100 » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 14:55

If I am commuting 12km to work and not going out, I plug in overnight every few days eggnog it gets below half.
If I am going into the city, or going shopping after work or going out for dinner or movie etc then I will need most of a charge so I rip up the night before.
Usually I do enough km to justify plugging in either every night or every second night.
I don't go out on Saturdays, that's home time.
Therefore I don't plug in on Friday night unless I know I'm going straight into town on Saturday night.
I'm not too precious about it. If I need the power then I'll plug in.
I do a lot of driving though, over 13,000 since October.

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Post by Johny » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 15:11

I don't drive an iMiev - it's a DIY but the same principles apply. I keep track of family activities and plan ahead of time whether I'll need a full charge or not. During winter I often charge every night as my range is lower in the cold (I don't have as much range as iMiev) so I have to have enough to do spontaneous trips. General commute only uses 30->35%.

On the weekend, unless there is something unusual, I let it sit at 35->50% SOC and charge up Sunday night (actually Monday morning 3 or 4AM).
So I charge 5 times a week. I have a timer and time charge so that the car just finishes the bulk of the charge before I lose off-peak rate (7AM). That way it spends as little time at 100% SOC. (I leave home around 8:15->8:30AM.)
Again like carnut, I'm not precious about it - just make it the general rule.

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 15:16

carnut1100 wrote: ... I plug in overnight every few days eggnog it gets below half. ay night unless I know I'm going straight into town on,000 s

Auto spell "correct" strikes again? Image
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Post by Johny » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 15:34

coulomb wrote:
carnut1100 wrote: ... I plug in overnight every few days eggnog it gets below half. ay night unless I know I'm going straight into town on,000 s

Auto spell "correct" strikes again? Image
I dunno - I just took it at face value. If the eggnog drops below half - fill it up again - unless you're going into town.

Makes sense to me Image

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Post by bindi » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 16:38

LOL - thanks guys!!!

I have found that we don't do lot of kms these days - have had the car since Dec 13 and have only done about 4,000 kms. Hence why I only need to charge every 3-4 days.

What is Canion? And how do I know if I have lost any battery capacity??

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Post by acmotor » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 16:42

Ditto on the eggnog expression. If it was a slip then it works !

.. And yes I use a timer too for the night charge to start at midnight to finish by end of off peak.
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 16:56

Just in brief,

Canion is an android app for phones and tablets.
Download for free from the play store.
Works with Bluetooth dongle that plugs into CAN bus connector ( above your left foot )
Only works with fast, upmarket dongles like the scan tools MX or Batman.

Search for canion on this forum for more info.

But.... You don't need canion IMHO to measure battery loss.
Just measure the kWh to recharge from power point with a power meter.
Typically 16.5kWh from the wall for a full charge at 10A (standard EVSE) and consider the lower bars as approx 1 kWh each.   I.e. 2 bars + 14.5kWh = 16.5kWh
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Best way to charge??

Post by bindi » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 17:18

Ohhh - I have an iphone hence why I couldn't find the canion app. I did look into it for 2 secs when I first purchased the car but couldn't find it so gave up.

I will have to give the power meter method a go. I have one somewhere...

I tend to try to recharge during the day just because we have solar panels. We are on the high feed in tariff, so it would make more economical sense to charge at night, but I like the idea of driving with no carbon output :))

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Post by Johny » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 17:57

Another way to measure battery health is to do similar to offgridQld. Basically have a known trip that you do every now and then and note a geographical marker where your battery gauge drops a bar - probably best to be down a couple of bars. Never panic when a single trip is anomalous - it's long term trend that you'd be looking at.

Only compare with previous notes when the temperature is about the same because we all get different range based on temperature.

It's worth mentioning that these batteries do not have any memory effect so don't ever let anyone tell you to discharge it almost completely for any reason. Just keep it charged unless you are not going to use it and minimize leaving the car to bake in the sun where possible.

That all said. A good power meter and a logbook is useful long term just to keep track of battery health - not that you can do much if the basic health tricks are followed anyway.

Your contribution to low carbon applies by charging at night probably even more as power stations must keep going at night. Grab the feed-in and charge at night - then just tell folk you charge off solar.

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Post by weber » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 19:55

I find it best to add a little brandy and drink it hot.
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Post by acmotor » Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 22:15

I'm on the road/at work during the day so off peak rate at night suits. The charge during the day is via the hardwired intergrid Image from my solar and wind turbine, though the wind turbine is helpful on windy nights.
Given Malm's preference for things cool, charging at night is better.
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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 17 Jul 2014, 02:38

'Best' way to recharge:
If you have the option for time of use electricity tariffs the best way to charge is on off-peak.
Also, recharge from renewable power. See my signature for how to do that cheaply and tax-deductible. Whatever you use is additional to the renewable energy target and matched with carbon offsets.
Otherwise, I would not run the battery any lower than necessary. Just plug in whenever it suits. Do the occasionally recharge from 2 bars as instructed but otherwise don't worry about it. Most seem to be of the view that Li batteries prefer to not be run really low. EG you might get 1000 recharges from 10% but 2000 recharges from 30%. IE there seems to be more wear in the bottom end of the battery range.
Last edited by Peter C in Canberra on Wed, 16 Jul 2014, 16:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Best way to charge??

Post by carnut1100 » Thu, 17 Jul 2014, 14:57

Posting from the phone means that yes, bloody auto correct sometimes slips past me!

Mine is sitting on about a third at the moment, went out last night with heater on.
If I go out today it will be in the Hilux so I didn't bother plugging in last night.
My wife needed a full charge to get to work anyway so we just plugged hers in.
I'm off sick, so I will probably plug mine in for a few hours today.

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Post by Peter C in Canberra » Thu, 17 Jul 2014, 15:49

Peter C in Canberra wrote: 'Best' way to recharge:
If you have the option for time of use electricity tariffs the best way to charge is on off-peak.
Also, recharge from renewable power. See my signature for how to do that cheaply and tax-deductible. Whatever you use is additional to the renewable energy target and matched with carbon offsets.

PS. Also, if you have PV on your roof and do not get a good export tariff, then the best time to charge is whenever the sun is shining to maximise self-consumption of your solar generation. And still do 100% greenpower for your imported power, especially now that our government is rowing hard in the opposite direction, ACT government excepted, which is aiming for 90% renewable in 2020, additional to the national target.
Last edited by Peter C in Canberra on Thu, 17 Jul 2014, 05:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by g4qber » Fri, 18 Jul 2014, 08:06

acmotor you mentioned that you've lost 4% does this mean that on canion you only get 96% SoC on full charge?

I'm getting 96.5% sometimes. and i've almost done 50k kms.
just started racing round the tracks this year.
which could be affecting the battery as I am also charging at high temps.
I wonder if mitsubishi will cover battery degradation due to racing imievs.

I just got 95.5% this morning Fri July 18. hmm
Last edited by g4qber on Fri, 18 Jul 2014, 05:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 18 Jul 2014, 15:33

My general practice for charging our Imiev. Remembering I am not pedantic about it I just practice this where practical.

1. Try and avoid charging it when it's really hot. Particularly charging it to 100% SOC and even worse 100% and then sitting around like that in the heat. So if it's a 35 - 40C day in summer I charge at night or very early morning and not to 100% if I don't need the range.

2.As above, avoid charging to 100% and then letting the car sit at 100% SOC for long periods. For example My car is at 60% now and I need it to be at 100% SOC tonight for a long drive up the coast at 7pm. I will most likely not put it on charge today until around 3pm so it reaches 100% SOC roughly just before we need to actual use it.

3. Consider 2 bars on your dashboard energy meter time to recharge. Two bars is just over 20% SOC and when you hit two bars the bars start to flash (just like a fuel warning light in a petrol car) So 20% SOC is my self imposed rule for. The lowest I want to take my battery regularly. This is best practice and hopefully a good service life. Sure there has been a few times when I have had only one bar 16.5% SOC and even one or two times when I hit as low as 13.5% due to very cold weather pushing the limits and carrying way to much on the roof racks at the same time.

4. Consider the Turtle the same as the dash OIL warning light in your petrol car (you really don't want to see it come on)You get plenty of warning to get a charge in the car before hand two flashing bars at just over 20% SOC and then 1 bar followed by no bars and finally if you keep pushing it a turtle (limp of the road mode) Not a healthy thing for your battery life.

5. The battery in the car likes to be between 30% SOC and 50% SOC when not being used - stored. So between 3-7 bars on the gauge. Generally for practicality I keep mine around 50% SOC when I am in town and just top up for the days charge needs each day.

6, It's important to do a full charge to 100% SOC...100% SOC isn't just when you have 16 bars on the dash gauge. 16 bars could be only in the mid 90% SOC range. The only way to tell if the car is 100% charges (without Canion application) is to keep it on charge until only the green led (charged) light is on the EVSE brick. You need to charge it to 100% (green light on) at least every two weeks or so. The reason you need to do this is that last few % of SOC the battery cells get balanced and voltages/capacity alined with each other. Not charging to 100% SOC for long periods could result in a battery that is not in balance and the result is less than optimum capacity available.

It's good to do this 100% charge from 2 bars as the SOC bar meter gets recalibrate when doing so. Just by my our driving needs my car always gets a full charge once a week on Fridays and has a perfect pack balance to date.

I would say for your short driving needs to start of with your battery at around 65% SOC each day. Do your daily drive. Lets say you return with 40% SOC then top back up at night to 65% and repeat. But give it a full charge and balance over the weekend. Perhaps once every two weeks take it down to 2 bars and then fully recharge on the weekend just to recalibrate the dash gauge.

Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 18 Jul 2014, 05:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor » Fri, 18 Jul 2014, 16:51

g4qber wrote: acmotor you mentioned that you've lost 4% does this mean that on canion you only get 96% SoC on full charge?

I'm getting 96.5% sometimes. and i've almost done 50k kms.
just started racing round the tracks this year.
which could be affecting the battery as I am also charging at high temps.
I wonder if mitsubishi will cover battery degradation due to racing imievs.

I just got 95.5% this morning Fri July 18. hmm


No. canion still goes to 100% on charge
Loss is based on recharge kWh.
Was 16.5kWh when new, now 15.8kWh on average. So 0.7/16.5 = 4% kinda can't argue with that.
How does your recharge kWh compare ?

Neither your standard MV insurance nor Mitsi are going to cover racing without a statement in writing from them.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 18 Jul 2014, 23:51

g4qber wrote: acmotor you mentioned that you've lost 4% does this mean that on canion you only get 96% SoC on full charge?

I'm getting 96.5% sometimes. and i've almost done 50k kms.
just started racing round the tracks this year.
which could be affecting the battery as I am also charging at high temps.
I wonder if mitsubishi will cover battery degradation due to racing imievs.

I just got 95.5% this morning Fri July 18. hmm


I have had this happen a few times. Tonight I see its only charged to 99.5% though I am not 100% that it got a chance to fully charge before the off peek outlet lost power at 5pm.

I have had it do this before in the past and then the next charge it fills to 100% . I have been doing lots of top up charges this week so perhaps that has something to do with it. I will report back on Sunday when it gets a 100% charge again from a low SOC ...Assuming it charges to 100%. It did last Sunday.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Fri, 18 Jul 2014, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Malm » Sat, 19 Jul 2014, 02:02

offgridQLD wrote: My general practice for charging our Imiev. Remembering I am not pedantic about it I just practice this where practical.

1. Try and avoid charging it when it's really hot. Particularly charging it to 100% SOC and even worse 100% and then sitting around like that in the heat. So if it's a 35 - 40C day in summer I charge at night or very early morning and not to 100% if I don't need the range.

2.As above, avoid charging to 100% and then letting the car sit at 100% SOC for long periods. For example My car is at 60% now and I need it to be at 100% SOC tonight for a long drive up the coast at 7pm. I will most likely not put it on charge today until around 3pm so it reaches 100% SOC roughly just before we need to actual use it.

3. Consider 2 bars on your dashboard energy meter time to recharge. Two bars is just over 20% SOC and when you hit two bars the bars start to flash (just like a fuel warning light in a petrol car) So 20% SOC is my self imposed rule for. The lowest I want to take my battery regularly. This is best practice and hopefully a good service life. Sure there has been a few times when I have had only one bar 16.5% SOC and even one or two times when I hit as low as 13.5% due to very cold weather pushing the limits and carrying way to much on the roof racks at the same time.

4. Consider the Turtle the same as the dash OIL warning light in your petrol car (you really don't want to see it come on)You get plenty of warning to get a charge in the car before hand two flashing bars at just over 20% SOC and then 1 bar followed by no bars and finally if you keep pushing it a turtle (limp of the road mode) Not a healthy thing for your battery life.

5. The battery in the car likes to be between 30% SOC and 50% SOC when not being used - stored. So between 3-7 bars on the gauge. Generally for practicality I keep mine around 50% SOC when I am in town and just top up for the days charge needs each day.

6, It's important to do a full charge to 100% SOC...100% SOC isn't just when you have 16 bars on the dash gauge. 16 bars could be only in the mid 90% SOC range. The only way to tell if the car is 100% charges (without Canion application) is to keep it on charge until only the green led (charged) light is on the EVSE brick. You need to charge it to 100% (green light on) at least every two weeks or so. The reason you need to do this is that last few % of SOC the battery cells get balanced and voltages/capacity alined with each other. Not charging to 100% SOC for long periods could result in a battery that is not in balance and the result is less than optimum capacity available.

It's good to do this 100% charge from 2 bars as the SOC bar meter gets recalibrate when doing so. Just by my our driving needs my car always gets a full charge once a week on Fridays and has a perfect pack balance to date.

I would say for your short driving needs to start of with your battery at around 65% SOC each day. Do your daily drive. Lets say you return with 40% SOC then top back up at night to 65% and repeat. But give it a full charge and balance over the weekend. Perhaps once every two weeks take it down to 2 bars and then fully recharge on the weekend just to recalibrate the dash gauge.

Kurt


I agree with almost everything, but nothing of this will protect you of a high degradation rate is your batteries are ussually over 40 ºC.

"It's good to do this 100% charge from 2 bars as the SOC bar meter gets recalibrate when doing so." It´s only thing that I don´t agree. From my experience, SoC bar meter only recalibrate once a year. That's why a specific bar will correspond to exactly the same energy every day of the month.
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Post by Malm » Sat, 19 Jul 2014, 02:15

I think consistently charging only 96,5% to full (or less), is a sign of some degradation. Mine only charged 96,5% most of the times until March. Now it goes to 99,5% or 100%. If that happens only one or two days in a month, I think that means nothing, but getting that value almost every charge, is a sign of some degradation. I bet that g4qber i-MiEV can´t go to 0,0% SoC as mine or the one of OffgridQLD.

There are 4 i-MiEVs here, in the same climate that shows their data frequently. OffgridQLD, Malm, ACmotor and G4qber. I'm sure that the first do everything like a new one, the same autonomy has a new one. Mine, do everything like having less 10% capacity of the one of OffgridQLD. Acmotor and G4qber are surely not as good as the one of OffgridQLD, but are they better or worst then mine??????
Last edited by Malm on Mon, 21 Jul 2014, 07:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by offgridQLD » Mon, 21 Jul 2014, 13:39

Regarding the not charging to 100%

last Friday afternoon my Imiev only charged to 99.5%. (now thinking off peek outlet could have switched off before fully charged)

Charging on Sunday went 100%

Charged last night to 100%

Kurt

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Post by g4qber » Mon, 21 Jul 2014, 15:36

after racing at the RAC DTEC
and charging at average temp 30 deg C,

charged last night 95.5%
batt temp was still around 30 deg C Think.

Kurt I presume you use the standard mitsu EVSE?
I'm just wondering if the EVSE can make a difference.

I shall have to take more note of the batt temp when charging overnight.

scantools dongle is behaving itself, though I just accidentally pulled it out the other day cos I forgot to turn on the imiev and assumed that it has frozen.
currently it is paired to the xperia ultra z.
reason being that I can put it in the glovebox (GB) when going round the track.
the nexus 7 seems a bit too thick and the GB doesn't close.
I make sure that nexus 7's bluetooth audio is NOT on. Nexus also seems slower than Xperia

Skype on xperia in portrait mode can't access text entry field, need to use landscape mode.
this is cos the xperia is so narrow. Which is good for shirt pockets.
Last edited by g4qber on Mon, 21 Jul 2014, 05:41, edited 1 time in total.
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