Zoe range vs temp & speed

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doggy
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Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by doggy » Sun, 05 Aug 2018, 09:03

Having spent approx 6moths a year of the past 8 years in France (on our now-sold 115 year old barge), I speak reasonable French and have pulled the following Zoe figures from the Renault simulator in France. In France, you can buy a Q90 (43kw AC charging) or a R110 (22kW AC charging). In Australia, the model being sold is the 2017 R90. The range of the R110/R90 is supposed to be the same under the same conditions but of course, if you put your foot down in the R110, it would use more juice than the R90. Before the R90 was removed from the simulator, the R110 and R90 were the same. I have verified several (50,60,80,100) of these figures with my Zoe, on the flat and using the speed limiter and no Eco mode and they match up at approx 15dgC.

These figures assume no hills with the climate control turned on. The climate control heat pump is used for thermal management of the battery so even if you turned off the heating or aircon inside the car you would not necessarily save very much. Likewise, headlights would have only a small influence.

Other more experienced EV owners would know better than I how much hills affect things. Clearly, if you have hills, the numbers will be impacted negatively. Zoe has some of the regen on the accelerator and the rest on the brake. Allegedly, the regen is max 43kW even though the AC charger is restricted to 22kW. I have seen 40kW on my regen so this appears to be true. Some people suggest that in general if you use XkW uphill, you get 50% back downhill. I guess it depends upon motor/generator efficiency and probably a few other things as well. Perhaps 50% is a good planning number.

Speed 25C 20C 15C 10C
50 365 388 367 353
60 342 360 344 332
70 311 325 313 304
80 284 295 285 278
90 257 267 259 253
100 223 231 225 221
110 196 203 198 195

Best Regards,
Dave

LouB
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by LouB » Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 14:43

Hi Dave,
That's great table you produced from the simulator. It makes it so easy to understand how the range is affected by variations in sustained speed and ambient temperature. Iv'e copied it into my information file for the Zoe. I must tell my wife that, if we buy it, she should only drive the Zoe at 50 kph and when the temperature stands at 20°C :) .

Your point that: 'In Australia, the model being sold is the 2017 R90.' makes me wonder if that was why the salesperson seemed a bit reluctant when I asked him to open the bonnet. I just wanted to see what was in there, besides a big electric motor, but perhaps he thought I wanted to check out the compliance plate.

Cheers
Lou

doggy
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by doggy » Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 15:31

Hi Lou,
Actually, I did not think to look under the bonnet on the test drive as I had seen several photos and even now have not lifted the lid! I'll do so tomorrow!

There is 400V DC floating around there, though I think it is reasonably protected so perhaps that was something to do with the reluctance.

You wife will be able to go a long way if she obeys you- which I doubt. We just drive normally and the economy is great. Better than I expected. Might be different if we lived in a place like Canberra which regularly gets to -5deg in winter.

Cheers,
Dave

LouB
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by LouB » Tue, 07 Aug 2018, 08:30

Hi Dave,

You're not wrong about the dangers of 400Vdc, especailly coupled with the very high Amps available.

I have had some fun plugging your table into a spread sheet and performing some simple calculations.

What stands out is the reduction in range due to temperature differences for each constant speed.
The best range at every speed takes place at 20°C. Taking this temperature as the base, it is clear that 5°C up or down will reduce range at any of the 7 listed speeds. Moreover an increase of 5°C (from base) will decrease range by more than a reduction of 5°C.

My questions are: For the Sydney area, where we live, 25°C represents a very mild warm day. It would be instructive to expand the table to cover temperatures of 30, 35 and 40°C. I refuse to drive anywhere above 40°C! Is it that the simulator, catering for conditions in La Belle France does not consider our antipodean excesses?
As the Zoe employs an active battery temperature control (heat pump) why is there such significant range degradation as ambient temps move away from optimum? Is it because battery temp control only switches on at extreme highs and lows?

Please do not feel that you need to answer any of this yourself, but perhaps there will be others on these forums that can shed some light.

Great to see that your Zoe is living up to, and even exceeding, expectations.

Cheers
Lou

antiscab
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by antiscab » Tue, 07 Aug 2018, 09:57

I have noticed the heat pump running after I have turned the car off after a long drive.

I suspect the car uses the heat pump to hold the battery at 20 deg C or so all the time. Or at least while driving, charging and immediately after both
Matt
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mikedufty
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by mikedufty » Tue, 07 Aug 2018, 09:59

I think they are getting into the 40s in France this week, maybe someone will update it.

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jonescg
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by jonescg » Tue, 07 Aug 2018, 11:28

antiscab wrote:
Tue, 07 Aug 2018, 09:57
I have noticed the heat pump running after I have turned the car off after a long drive.

I suspect the car uses the heat pump to hold the battery at 20 deg C or so all the time. Or at least while driving, charging and immediately after both
That's a very good thing - heat soak is a killer.
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch vice-chair

doggy
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by doggy » Wed, 08 Aug 2018, 05:42

Hi Mike,
Yes, France (and other parts of Europe) continue to swelter. Where we used to keep our barge, the heat wave is the worst since records began over 180 years ago.
Hi Matthew,
Yes, Zoe's battery is "air conditioned". This was a key checklist item for me when buying. Some cars do not have battery temperature management. Some simply restrict performance and charge rate depending upon battery temperature. Australia was one of the test locations for the development of Zoe's battery temperature management in 2011. Lithiums will last longer and deliver more cycles if temperature managed.
Cheers,
Dave

doggy
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by doggy » Wed, 08 Aug 2018, 08:28

Hi Lou,

1. The simulator for the Zoe does not go above 25degC. From my last 10 years in France, their summers can certainly have very hot periods. I remember one summer three years ago when we had 15 days in a row over 35degC. In some ways, more extreme than Sydney. Particularly when you factor in the very cold winters. I had telemetry on my barge and winters often went to -12degC which was inside an insulated engine room (therefore an average rather than an absolute minimum).

2. I suspect that the temperature management cannot keep the battery at exactly 20deg. I think the maximum heat pump power usage is around 2kW. So if it is running flat out to heat or cool the battery and occupants then that could knock range 15% [depending upon average kW usage at the time]. I think the BMS starts with the fans only (when battery warm) but that is purely speculation. Likewise, the max kWH for any Lithium battery would decrease at low and high temperatures. Airflow will also affect battery temperature but I have no idea how much or little.

3. Given the Teslas have had active battery temperature management for a while, some analogies can probably be drawn from their experiences.

I was not prepared to buy a car in Australia that did not have active battery temperature management (I want my battery to last as long as possible). I have yet to see how Zoe goes in 40+deg weather. Time will tell. There are over 100,000 Zoes in Europe and I cannot find anything much regarding issues (except some interesting experiences driving at -24degC in Norway where Zoe seemed to perform well- in my judgement). Other marques have had battery temperature problems in England in "hot" weather and also to do with rapid charging raising battery temperatures very high. There are Zoes in Portugal, Spain and some African cities which would be hotter than many parts of Australia in summer. Most of the experiences so far would have been with the 22kWH battery.

I have been doing some battery temperature monitoring on my Zoe (I can see the temperature for each of the 96 modules). It is very uniform and I have been getting around-Sydney range exceeding 300km at trip commencement battery temperatures of 14degC. Finishing temperatures are around 20deg but I suspect there is a range of temperatures that the Zoe BMS considers acceptable (another speculation on my part).

Cheers,
Dave

LouB
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by LouB » Wed, 08 Aug 2018, 11:24

Hi people,

Thank you for providing some very useful information on this topic.
Thank you Dave for the in-depth research in your last post.
I am now definitely leaning towards the Zoe as the best answer to our urban transport needs. The battery thermal control is the clincher.

I found this 7 part technical document on the web titled: La climatisation et le chauffage de la RENAULT ZOE at:

http://eduscol.education.fr/sti/ressour ... iers-liens

A bit of a strain on my high school French, but doable. It provides in-depth explanation of the operation of the heat pump in both aircon and heating mode. The diagrams help identify and make the location of parts clear. There are also photos and descriptions of all components.
Could not help grinning where they list the air freshener function "Diffusion de parfum" above pre-conditioning. So very Gallic.

Cheers
Lou

doggy
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Re: Zoe range vs temp & speed

Post by doggy » Wed, 08 Aug 2018, 12:59

Hi Lou, the air freshener function is not on my model. I think it is only on the R110.
There are a few other things not in Oz. For instance, the ability to remotely programme charge start/stop and turn on the climate control from the Zoe phone app (Android and Apple) or a web browser. I do not have an answer yet from R.A as to why it is not in Oz- should be easy given it works in other countries. But maybe we'll get it soon. The Zoe internet is good (works in my semi-underground, steel roofed garage where phones do not work) so that's good and is not an issue. Likewise, the manual says I can set start and stop time for charging from within the car, but at the moment I can only set the start (not the stop). There is also an in-car calendar function for charging which definitely needs the first-mentioned capability in order to function, so that is currently greyed out.
Cheers,
Dave

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