PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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gremlinman
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gremlinman » Fri, 11 May 2018, 15:25

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 10 May 2018, 20:35
For charging, it only has to know when the battery is full. Usually, it uses the battery current at a certain voltage, but you can use setting 38 (absorb time) to modify that somewhat. With the patched firmware, and I expect the same from original firmware if they ever fix that typo, charging seems quite reliable to me.
That is some great info you laid out in some combined posts, so thanks for that again!

When you say it uses the battery current at a certain voltage, do you mean when the inverter is on it can guess the SOC because of the voltage at that load? What happens when the inverter isn't on, what current is it using then? I assume it just uses the voltage then?
Last edited by gremlinman on Fri, 11 May 2018, 15:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gremlinman » Fri, 11 May 2018, 15:32

Has anyone had any luck with 48v lifepo4 batteries connected in parallel to a PIP? It seems you can find some relatively cheap scooter type batteries that are 48v and 20AH in capacity. I like the idea of only needing to replace a single unit if one goes bad and if they all have their own BMS then it seems like a simpler setup. But maybe I am overlooking something.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by beccsjb » Fri, 11 May 2018, 17:50

Hi Gremlinman,

I’m use LiPo4 batteries, they work great with an accurate SOC indication. I basically only use the bulk charge and float charge voltage of the inverter. The rest of it is controlled from ICC software (www.iccsoftware.co.za) then use ICC’s Pylontech lead to give their software the battery stats, SOC, Temp etc.
I mainly find the cut out voltage on these inverters to be an issue as LiPo4 batteries have quite a quick voltage drop off from 48v, but if you set the cut off too high you don’t get full use of the battery capacity.

The ICC control side is nice, just set your cut off voltage a bit lower and let ICC control the change back to grid based on SOC.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 11 May 2018, 21:12

beccsjb wrote:
Fri, 11 May 2018, 06:03
Coulomb, do you know if your custom firmware would work on a 'POWER MPS-5K, Model: MPS 5K-48VDC'.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2360096080
The above link goes to a 24 V model for me. Looking at the 48 V model specifications, I'd say that these are old models, based on the 30 A AC charging and 60 A SCC charging current limits. The photos seem to be identical between the 24 V and 48 V models; I guess they were lazy and used the same set of photos for both.
* Do yours have the black heatsinks on top?
* What is the date of manufacture on the stickers?
* What firmware version(s) does it come with? To handle only 30 A of AC charging, I think it would have to come with main firmware version 52.XX, assuming it's a genuine Voltronic Power model.

I'd be hesitant about using more modern firmware in that hardware, assuming my guesses about their age is correct. It might be too easy to overload the AC charger, for example. The only firmware I have that handles less than 120 A of total charge current is 52.02, and it only handles a maximum of 60 A. Yours presumably allows a maximum of 90 A (60 A from the SCC, and 30 A from AC charging). I've not studied the differences between 52.02 and 52.30 in any detail.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 11 May 2018, 21:24

gremlinman wrote:
Fri, 11 May 2018, 15:25
When you say it uses the battery current at a certain voltage, do you mean when the inverter is on it can guess the SOC because of the voltage at that load?
No, it's all based on total battery current.
What happens when the inverter isn't on, what current is it using then?
Sorry, I forgot to mention that the SCC does measure its DC current output, and this is part of the calculation of total battery current. The inverter is always either discharging the battery, charging from AC, or not used at all. In the first case, they use the AC power and an estimate of efficiency to infer battery current. When AC charging, the use the net power into the charger along with an efficiency estimate to infer battery current. When the inverter is off, the only battery drain is for the internal electronics. In all three cases, there can be SCC charge current, which is simply added to the inferred battery current.

It might help to think of the PIP as having a sensor for battery current, just that it's a bit imprecise (because it's a virtual sensor, not a real one). When the battery voltage is near the absorb voltage setting, and the inferred total battery current is low enough, the battery is deemed to be full. This works even when there are AC loads, because the virtual sensor is measuring total battery current (the result of adding all the charge and discharge currents with the appropriate sign, i.e. treating either discharge or charge currents as negative).
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by simat » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:55

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on how well the PIP4048 handles the battery being disconnected from it with the solar panels still connected and generating power?

In theory, if the SCC has been well designed it should not be a problem but...

The reason for my question is that I will be using a BMS that disconnects the battery minus from the rest of the world when it detects any battery cell going out of its safe operating voltage range or other faults. This should never happen but...

If it is a problem for the SCC if the battery is disconnected I could modify the BMS to disconnect the solar panels minus from the array when an over voltage fault is detected. This would leave the SCC minus PV input sitting at negative the difference between the panel voltage and the battery voltage.

Thanks, Simon
Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
32x90Ah Winston cells 4p8s (24V), 4kW Latronics Inverter, 1160W of Solar Panels
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by cybersyx » Tue, 15 May 2018, 00:07

Hi, first of all, congratulations for your fantastic forum. Thanks to you I learned a lot of things on my PIP4048 inverter. Now I have a small problem, I'm writing a small management interface with node.js to get the data from the inverter. The commands like QPIGS and QPIRI give me back data without problems but I need to acquire data from the second charge controller (my inverter has two inputs for photovoltaic panels). I tried to use the QPIGS2 command but it does not return any data. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks a lot to everyone

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Tue, 15 May 2018, 15:02

Hi folks, not sure if this has been covered already...

If you have multiple PIP 5048MSD with the parallel cards, is it possible to "shutdown" one (or 2) of the inverters when load is low to minimise idle power consumption?

Does turning just the inverter off (little switch underneath the unit) save sufficient power to embark on this strategy? Simple timer?

Thoughts/comments/suggestions most appreciated.

cheers
John

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Thu, 17 May 2018, 03:52

Erik89 wrote:
Mon, 05 Feb 2018, 16:37
Yes, I have a Pip4048ms .... the problem remains even when the battery is removed. the relays seem to work well in the mppt card but not released under the 60v photovoltaic input
Hi , did you solve the problem? I have the same issue , He worked great , until now .Thank you !

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 17 May 2018, 07:10

mirceaalex001 wrote:
Thu, 17 May 2018, 03:52
Erik89 wrote:
Mon, 05 Feb 2018, 16:37
Yes, I have a Pip4048ms .... the problem remains even when the battery is removed. the relays seem to work well in the mppt card but not released under the 60v photovoltaic input
Hi , did you solve the problem? I have the same issue , He worked great , until now .Thank you !
If you mean that the relay in the Solar Charge Controller comes on and off repeatedly at the end of the day when solar input voltage drops, I believe that this is normal behaviour. The SCC measures the PV voltage under a slight load (running its own electronics including the relay), finds it just barely too low, disconnects, and the PV voltage shoots up again because the small load (the relay coil) is removed. There is enough voltage to keep the SCC running, and the next measurement finds the PV voltage just above the threshold, so it re-connects. Eventually, the PV voltage is so low that even with the reduced load, the voltage is too low to connect, and the SCC stays off.

My apologies if I have misinterpreted the problem.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Thu, 17 May 2018, 14:21

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 17 May 2018, 07:10
mirceaalex001 wrote:
Thu, 17 May 2018, 03:52
Erik89 wrote:
Mon, 05 Feb 2018, 16:37
Yes, I have a Pip4048ms .... the problem remains even when the battery is removed. the relays seem to work well in the mppt card but not released under the 60v photovoltaic input
Hi , did you solve the problem? I have the same issue , He worked great , until now .Thank you !
If you mean that the relay in the Solar Charge Controller comes on and off repeatedly at the end of the day when solar input voltage drops, I believe that this is normal behaviour. The SCC measures the PV voltage under a slight load (running its own electronics including the relay), finds it just barely too low, disconnects, and the PV voltage shoots up again because the small load (the relay coil) is removed. There is enough voltage to keep the SCC running, and the next measurement finds the PV voltage just above the threshold, so it re-connects. Eventually, the PV voltage is so low that even with the reduced load, the voltage is too low to connect, and the SCC stays off.

My apologies if I have misinterpreted the problem.
No, at the end of the day , say pv input 28w , and the relay don`t comes off.... The big problem is in that way , it consumes way more power . The only way to disconnect the relay is to cut off the batteries ( the main power ) . ANd then i can hear the relay goes off . After i reconnect the batteries , is all ok , untill next night .

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Thu, 17 May 2018, 14:23

And measured with a multimeter , even with the pv switch off , i have that 46v there , so , somehow is taking dc current from another place .
I have found another way to turn it off ( the panels ) is by setting the max charge to 0 am and then back to desired amp . After it disconnect that relay , is ok , until is connected again, so is like is some dc voltage on the other side of the relay , or is like a circuit that closes with that relay . Do You have any ideas what can be ? Or if i can set the pv input voltage cutoff .... ?Thank you !
Last edited by mirceaalex001 on Fri, 18 May 2018, 04:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Thu, 17 May 2018, 14:44

Is there any way i can change when the pv input to turn off ( like under 60w or something ) ? Thank you guys !

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Revlac » Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:24

Had a similar experience.
I have used the PCM60X charge controllers for years now, as I use it along side the 5048HS And have had no problems with them on (custom settings) with the lithium battery bank.
Just a few times where I disconnected the solar panels late in the afternoon just before a storm and noticed it also stayed on for some time but not always, reconnected the panels and then sorted itself out if there was still some solar available.

On the FLA battery bank in the shed on default settings accept that I had the equalize setting enabled, That resulted in the charge controller staying on all night every night, it was trying to equalize the batteries. (There was full battery voltage at the solar inputs when the relay was on)
It maybe I set up the equalize setting incorrectly, I don't know but since I disabled the Equalize I have never had that happen again. (It never stayed on since.)
Hope that helps someone.

Cheers
Aaron

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gremlinman » Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:46

Hi again guys I have a question regarding my batteries connected to the PIP4048ms, I'm on 73.00b firmware.

At ~80w usage reported according to the PIP, and I assume another 50w from the PIP itself, my 8x120ah 12v AGM batteries drop from 48.0v to 47.0v in 3 hours after sundown. Adding that up is about 390WH of electricity used in the time reported. Is this roughly correct given my batteries? I see on numerous calculators they put 12v as the 50% usage in AGM batteries, or 48v in my system. I have a feeling this drop off is too much and my batteries are either duds or something else is going on. Normally I wouldn't run them this low but my generator cord broke and I haven't been able to charge with the generator in 3 days and it has been quite cloudy weather.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Thu, 17 May 2018, 18:39

Revlac wrote:
Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:24
Had a similar experience.
I have used the PCM60X charge controllers for years now, as I use it along side the 5048HS And have had no problems with them on (custom settings) with the lithium battery bank.
Just a few times where I disconnected the solar panels late in the afternoon just before a storm and noticed it also stayed on for some time but not always, reconnected the panels and then sorted itself out if there was still some solar available.

On the FLA battery bank in the shed on default settings accept that I had the equalize setting enabled, That resulted in the charge controller staying on all night every night, it was trying to equalize the batteries. (There was full battery voltage at the solar inputs when the relay was on)
It maybe I set up the equalize setting incorrectly, I don't know but since I disabled the Equalize I have never had that happen again. (It never stayed on since.)
Hope that helps someone.

Cheers
Aaron
Thank you , i will try to disable Equalize , and see if the problem persist , i will answer back .

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Thu, 17 May 2018, 19:42

Revlac wrote:
Thu, 17 May 2018, 17:24
Had a similar experience.
I have used the PCM60X charge controllers for years now, as I use it along side the 5048HS And have had no problems with them on (custom settings) with the lithium battery bank.
Just a few times where I disconnected the solar panels late in the afternoon just before a storm and noticed it also stayed on for some time but not always, reconnected the panels and then sorted itself out if there was still some solar available.

On the FLA battery bank in the shed on default settings accept that I had the equalize setting enabled, That resulted in the charge controller staying on all night every night, it was trying to equalize the batteries. (There was full battery voltage at the solar inputs when the relay was on)
It maybe I set up the equalize setting incorrectly, I don't know but since I disabled the Equalize I have never had that happen again. (It never stayed on since.)
Hope that helps someone.

Cheers
Aaron
I have disabled the equalization , but the problem persists . Is like is some dc curent there , from another place .

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Fri, 18 May 2018, 04:31

And , this night , in bypass mode , i have a 1 amp battery draw .... so , is like somehow , the same thing is drawing this current it takes it to the pv input .

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 18 May 2018, 06:33

mirceaalex001 wrote:
Thu, 17 May 2018, 14:23
And measured with a multimeter , even with the pv switch off , i have that 46v there ,
By "there", do you mean at the PV input terminals? Is it possible that this is leakage across your PV switch? For example, can you ever see this 46 V at night?
so , somehow is taking dc current from another place .
It must be taking *some* current to see the 46 V at the PV input, but even 5 microamps would be enough to register 46 V on a multimeter with a typical 10 MΩ input resistance. But I think that you're saying that the SCC relay coils (there are two in parallel) are turned on somehow. That would require of the order of a watt, which is some 20 mA at 50 V, and would require more than that (a few watts) to drive the SCC processor and associated electronics as well. But I can't imagine the current draw from the battery being near the 28 W that has been mentioned, just for the SCC electronics.
I have found another way to turn it off ( the panels ) is by setting the max charge to 0 [ amps ] and then back to desired amp . After it disconnect that relay , is ok , until is connected again, so is like is some dc voltage on the other side of the relay , or is like a circuit that closes with that relay . Do You have any ideas what can be ? Or if i can set the pv input voltage cutoff .... ?Thank you !
It sounds like what is happening is that somehow some of these SCCs are drawing power from the main battery even when the PV input is not present. They are designed to take their power (for the electronics) from the PV input only. However, I could imagine some errant path whereby the battery could supply power to the electronics, keeping the output relays on. The relays are between the SCC output and the main battery. That would cause a small drain from the main battery, which would go away when the SCC is told to turn off its relays; it sounds like setting the maximum charge current to zero amps does this.

Since the SCC stays off after forcing the relay off once, it suggests that the SCC isn't getting power from the PV input. But it's not certain, because relays require a lot more voltage (and hence power) to pull in than to hold their held-in position. If you have leakage across your PV switch, it might be enough power to hold the relays in, but not enough to pull them in once off.

You could prove that one way or the other by disconnecting one or both wires to the PV input; if there is no significant leakage across your PV switch, this should make no difference. Do this at the end of a day before forcing off the relays, of course.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Fri, 18 May 2018, 15:36

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 18 May 2018, 06:33
mirceaalex001 wrote:
Thu, 17 May 2018, 14:23
And measured with a multimeter , even with the pv switch off , i have that 46v there ,
By "there", do you mean at the PV input terminals? Is it possible that this is leakage across your PV switch? For example, can you ever see this 46 V at night?
so , somehow is taking dc current from another place .
It must be taking *some* current to see the 46 V at the PV input, but even 5 microamps would be enough to register 46 V on a multimeter with a typical 10 MΩ input resistance. But I think that you're saying that the SCC relay coils (there are two in parallel) are turned on somehow. That would require of the order of a watt, which is some 20 mA at 50 V, and would require more than that (a few watts) to drive the SCC processor and associated electronics as well. But I can't imagine the current draw from the battery being near the 28 W that has been mentioned, just for the SCC electronics.
I have found another way to turn it off ( the panels ) is by setting the max charge to 0 [ amps ] and then back to desired amp . After it disconnect that relay , is ok , until is connected again, so is like is some dc voltage on the other side of the relay , or is like a circuit that closes with that relay . Do You have any ideas what can be ? Or if i can set the pv input voltage cutoff .... ?Thank you !
It sounds like what is happening is that somehow some of these SCCs are drawing power from the main battery even when the PV input is not present. They are designed to take their power (for the electronics) from the PV input only. However, I could imagine some errant path whereby the battery could supply power to the electronics, keeping the output relays on. The relays are between the SCC output and the main battery. That would cause a small drain from the main battery, which would go away when the SCC is told to turn off its relays; it sounds like setting the maximum charge current to zero amps does this.

Since the SCC stays off after forcing the relay off once, it suggests that the SCC isn't getting power from the PV input. But it's not certain, because relays require a lot more voltage (and hence power) to pull in than to hold their held-in position. If you have leakage across your PV switch, it might be enough power to hold the relays in, but not enough to pull them in once off.

You could prove that one way or the other by disconnecting one or both wires to the PV input; if there is no significant leakage across your PV switch, this should make no difference. Do this at the end of a day before forcing off the relays, of course.
Hi , and thank you again for all the help , I have disconnected the panels , but the problem remains , and in bypass mode and what i have observed is that i have 1 amp drain from batteries no matter what( reported by the inverter himself , i don`t have a amp clampeter yet )
...so , somehow , some power si going in the wrong way

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 18 May 2018, 17:10

mirceaalex001 wrote:
Fri, 18 May 2018, 15:36
Hi , and thank you again for all the help , I have disconnected the panels , but the problem remains,
Ok. So that seems to rule out leakage across your PV switch.
and in bypass mode and what i have observed is that i have 1 amp drain from batteries no matter what( reported by the inverter himself , i don`t have a amp clamp meter yet ) ...so , somehow , some power is going in the wrong way
When in bypass mode, the battery current reported depends on whether you are using factory firmware or patched. Even when not AC charging, so there is no significant loss from the inverter, but you are still running the LC display back-light, processor, relays, and all sorts of electronics. There are certainly versions of firmware that would report one amp of battery discharge in bypass mode. Recall that the battery current is a calculation, not a direct measurement, and can't be used to determine whether the inverter is drawing 20 W or 70 W under these conditions. DC clamp meters have their own issues, but can be made to be far more accurate than the reported battery current.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Fri, 18 May 2018, 19:24

Ok so i understand that -1a in bypass mode is not necessarily a problem , but the leakage is real , do you have any idea how can i stop this ? or, where to start ? Thank you ! ps i use the firmware ( 73.00c) , should i update ? and i have updated after the problem with the pv input , but no fix .

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 18 May 2018, 19:47

mirceaalex001 wrote:
Fri, 18 May 2018, 19:24
any idea how can i stop this ? or, where to start ?
If you have the ability to inject commands to the PIP, and since you are using patched firmware, I'd try this pair of commands:
MNCHGC0500<CRC><CR>
MNCHGC0499<CRC><CR>
This sets the dynamic charge current to zero, then sets it back to the EEPROM standard value and exits dynamic charge control mode. The advantage here is that you don't need to know what the EEPROM maximum charge current value is, it will use whatever has been set. It also won't reset the SCC, but at this time of day with no solar power available anyway, that doesn't matter. You can calculate the CRC characters once, then never have to change them. Perhaps you could insert an Arduino or similar between the PC and the PIP to do this at a fixed time of day. Or it could monitor packets to see when the solar power goes below a threshold.

You probably need a gap of a second or two between these commands, and of course hold all commands from the PC while you are injecting, so the commands don't overrun each other.

Edit: the CRCs are CA FA for the first command, and D6 7B for the second, as calculated from this on-line calculator. So if using TeraTerm with the appropriate setup, the commands to try them out from TeraTerm would be
MNCHGC0500 alt J alt z enter
MNCHGC0499 alt V { enter


[ Edit: "EEPROM value " -> "EEPROM maximum charge current value " ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Sat, 19 May 2018, 16:28

I will try this and i will write back . Thank you !

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mirceaalex001 » Sun, 20 May 2018, 17:12

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 18 May 2018, 19:47
mirceaalex001 wrote:
Fri, 18 May 2018, 19:24
any idea how can i stop this ? or, where to start ?
If you have the ability to inject commands to the PIP, and since you are using patched firmware, I'd try this pair of commands:
MNCHGC0500<CRC><CR>
MNCHGC0499<CRC><CR>
This sets the dynamic charge current to zero, then sets it back to the EEPROM standard value and exits dynamic charge control mode. The advantage here is that you don't need to know what the EEPROM maximum charge current value is, it will use whatever has been set. It also won't reset the SCC, but at this time of day with no solar power available anyway, that doesn't matter. You can calculate the CRC characters once, then never have to change them. Perhaps you could insert an Arduino or similar between the PC and the PIP to do this at a fixed time of day. Or it could monitor packets to see when the solar power goes below a threshold.

You probably need a gap of a second or two between these commands, and of course hold all commands from the PC while you are injecting, so the commands don't overrun each other.

Edit: the CRCs are CA FA for the first command, and D6 7B for the second, as calculated from this on-line calculator. So if using TeraTerm with the appropriate setup, the commands to try them out from TeraTerm would be
MNCHGC0500 alt J alt z enter
MNCHGC0499 alt V { enter


[ Edit: "EEPROM value " -> "EEPROM maximum charge current value " ]
I tried to use Tera Term but i didn`t managed to send the commands, it seems i don`t have any response from the eeprom. Meanwhile , i have opened the cover , removed the plastic protection , and did some measurements , and yes it seems , somehow , i got some dc input from the relays . When the relays are open , i get power on the driver 1 or driver 2 . ( red or black cables ) , and then , the power seems to go in the pv input . The problem persists . Is that any way to reflash the whole eeprom?

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