PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Sun, 02 Dec 2018, 20:04

We have just bumped patched firmware 73.00d from beta to release. I note that we will be posting the beta version of 73.00e (with KettleKomp™) in the next few hours.

It seems we failed to announce when we bumped patched firmware 72.20c from beta to release three weeks ago. Sorry about that.

Many thanks to all who tested the beta versions.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Sun, 02 Dec 2018, 21:45

Beta Version of Patched Firmware 73.00e for some PF0.8 models (introducing KettleKomp™)

This is the fifth version of our patched firmware based on factory firmware version 73.00 for the PIP-4048MS and equivalents. This patched firmware has all the same patches as 73.00d and earlier patched firmwares, including Dynamic Charge and Load Control and AussieView™. This includes fixing the infamous premature float bugs.

In addition, 73.00e adds kettle compensation, or KettleKomp™ for short. This prevents a heavy load like a kettle from causing the inverter to cut off, or switch back to the grid prematurely, due to momentary low battery voltage, when the battery state of charge is not low. It also improves the crude state-of-charge reading provided by the inverter. The following photos will make more sense after you read the Kettle Compensation section of the AussieView and KettleKomp manual.

The following image shows both true and compensated battery voltage (with the flashing "k"), while boiling the kettle.

Image

The following image shows how we piggy-backed the setting of compensation strength on the cut-off voltage setting.

Image


Note: This firmware is only suitable for the 48 V models with a single low-voltage MPPT and a power factor of 0.8 (4 kW / 5 kVA). i.e. the older PIP-4048MS or Axpert MKS 5K-48 that is no longer manufactured, or their equivalent. It is not suitable for those with dual or triple MPPTs or a power factor of 1.0 (5 kW / 5 kVA), or a maximum PV array open circuit voltage greater than 145 V DC. It is not suitable for those with a 64 V maximum charge voltage option. It is not suitable for grid-feed or hybrid models such as EnerSolar or InfiniSolar. Parallel or phased machines must all run the same patched firmware version.

For lithium ferrous phosphate (LFP) (16S or 15S)
dsp_BF1_73.00e.zip
(1.55 MiB) Downloaded 19 times

For lead acid (24S), lithium cobalt-blends (LCO, NMC, NCM, NCA) (14S), and lithium titanate (LTO) (21S)
dsp_BC1_73.00e.zip
(1.54 MiB) Downloaded 17 times

For reflashing instructions see the 72.70b reflashing instructions, but ignore the zip files there.

It should go without saying that you use this at your own risk. Please report any problems to this thread.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by CrOhN » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 01:42

Hi mates :). My first post here, but long time reader. I must thank the topic participants for the excellent info found on it!

I to have a PIP-5048MSP for about 4.5 years. All been working fine, except 3 fan faults. Today a new problem arouse. It started to trip the mains differential when the inverter switches to Line bypass. Sometimes it holds, but i get tension on the earth lead. I'm thinking there must be some short on the line to battery switch (relays with contacts glued maybe). On battery, no problem. Only on line bypass.

What do you think? Is there any schematic of this part of the circuit? I searched but couldn't find anything.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 07:47

CrOhN wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 01:42
Hi mates :). My first post here, but long time reader. I must thank the topic participants for the excellent info found on it!

I to have a PIP-5048MSP for about 4.5 years. All been working fine, except 3 fan faults. Today a new problem arouse. It started to trip the mains differential when the inverter switches to Line bypass. Sometimes it holds, but i get tension on the earth lead. I'm thinking there must be some short on the line to battery switch (relays with contacts glued maybe). On battery, no problem. Only on line bypass.

What do you think? Is there any schematic of this part of the circuit? I searched but couldn't find anything.
Welcome @CrOhN, and thanks for the kind words.

I have never heard of a PIP-5048MSP, and I don't think any kind of 5048 existed 4.5 years ago. Decoding that part number in the manner I describe here, would give it continuous output power of 5000 W / 6250 VA. What are the continuous W and VA specs in its manual? I'm guessing they will be 4000 W / 5000 VA which would make it a PIP-4048MS (assuming its SCC is an MPPT type with a max open circuit voltage of 145 V). Can you tell us what main (U1) firmware version it came with?

In the PIP-4048MS, we think the arrangement of those relays has changed twice since they were first sold. We have a manufacturer's schematic for what we think is the first configuration, which is most likely what you have, and we have a guess at the third configuration. [@coulomb perhaps update the index page to make these findable with the word "relay".]

It's a long-shot, but I note that there is a small circuit board raised on standoffs that parallels some of these relays with triacs. We think this is for fast changeover, although it may also reduce arcing of the relay contacts. Maybe something on this triac board has gone leaky. So, if replacing relays doesn't fix it, you might try removing this board temporarily to see if the fault goes away, but don't run any inductive loads during the test, just in case. We have not tried operating without this board, so this would be at your own risk.

[Edit: It might instead be a leaky MOV or capacitor.]
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by CrOhN » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 16:14

Thanks for your replay @weber . Of course it is the 4048MSP. My bad for rush posting!

I've seen the schematic you pointed out, but it is a block schematic. It helps to some extent. For now, i disconnected the inverter from mains. Will try to check the inverter in the weekend.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44

Hello CrOhN
Is there an earth on the neutral at the output of the inverter if not it will go to about 90 volts and can case
it to trip the mains differential.
There needs to be a mains differential safety relay on the output of the inverter
There needs to be a relay that puts an earth on the neutral when the inverter is running
but removes it when connected to the mains as this should then be replaced by the MEN link
this also means it may not be possible to have one on the input of the inverter
due to leakage from slow relay not removing the earth fast enough.
So measure neutral to ground when the inverter is on.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by CrOhN » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 21:52

paulvk wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44
Hello CrOhN
Is there an earth on the neutral at the output of the inverter if not it will go to about 90 volts and can case
it to trip the mains differential.
Yes, it has been running like this for almost 5 years now.
paulvk wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44
There needs to be a mains differential safety relay on the output of the inverter
There needs to be a relay that puts an earth on the neutral when the inverter is running
but removes it when connected to the mains as this should then be replaced by the MEN link
this also means it may not be possible to have one on the input of the inverter
due to leakage from slow relay not removing the earth fast enough.

I haven't fitted any diferential on the output, as i haven't shunt the earth and neutral on the output. As i said, almost 5 years like this, with no problem.

paulvk wrote:
Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 18:44
So measure neutral to ground when the inverter is on.
It is around 120V. The problem doesn't happen when on batteries. Only when inverter switches to line bypass. What puzzles me is that i get voltage across earth lead and the earth itself (~120V). But no voltage when i bypass the inverter with the external bypass switch. All earths are common.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Sat, 08 Dec 2018, 17:15

The reason for the relay on the output to put an earth on the neutral when inverter is on
is because you should have only one earth/neutral link
if there is a permanent one on the output of the inverter
in bypass mode you will end up with two
The neutral coming in is disconnected in inverter mode
so it needs to be applied in inverter mode
It also needs to be before the mains differential safety relay not after it

You have an earthing problem
There should be no voltage difference between neutral and earth
You should also check the neutral relay in the inverter is working

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by brucetheloon » Sun, 09 Dec 2018, 17:21

Good day everyone. New member from South Africa here, installed a PIP-5048MS with the 60A solar charger limit (RCT MKS-5000-58 model number on the label) in 2014 with 8 102AH AGM batteries in 4 x 2 array for 48V 204AH, no solar panels yet.

With the resumption of load-shedding in this part of the world, I've been investigating adding solar to the mix and have been poking around my inverter unit a bit. Two things I've noticed that I'm running 52.30 firmware version and that there is no U2 secondary CPU firmware version appearing in the LCD parameters list if you Up/Down through the list. the U1 main one is there and it skips through straight back to the first item on a Down press.

Two questions thus arise, is it normal for the secondary CPU firmware version item to be missing like that or has something happened to the SCC hardware? Secondly, what DSP firmware can I go to, straight to 73.00d or am I restricted to older versions.

Label on the side of the machine.
inverter_label.jpg
inverter_label.jpg (107.97 KiB) Viewed 362 times

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Big problems with PIP4848 - R / S / T (3 Phase) - ZERO PV input

Post by Ksears » Sun, 09 Dec 2018, 18:17

Hi there,

since a few days there is no PV Input into my PIP 4048MS - 0volts and 0watts and 0amps....

my configuration:
3x pip 4048MS 5KVA 0.8PF with 6x 250W panels. (2 in a row )
6x pylontech us2000b plus. = 48V battery string.
for 7-9 months everthing works fine.

Now since two or three days no PV input voltage

things i've checked:
-> Use a Multimeter = up to 70V and 3 to 7 amps input by each string (measured on the pip "PV" Terminals). So i think with the pv panels everything is ok?!
-> Reset every device to factory settings and re entered all the values manual.

Any ideas?
PV input measeared by multimeter 70V and displayed on PIP = 0V why?

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Mon, 10 Dec 2018, 05:47

brucetheloon wrote:
Sun, 09 Dec 2018, 17:21
Good day everyone.

Welcome.
... , no solar panels yet.
...

Two questions thus arise, is it normal for the secondary CPU firmware version item to be missing like that
Yes, it's normal to not see the secondary CPU firmware version when you don't have panels connected; the solar charge controller only gets its power from the PV input.
Secondly, what DSP firmware can I go to, straight to 73.00d or am I restricted to older versions.
Yes, you can go straight to 73.00d. The only hassle is you will have the option to choose up to 140 A of total charge current, when your hardware isn't capable of it. Just ignore the 130 and 140 A options.

The patched firmware goes to some trouble to work with older SCC firmware, so you won't have to update the SCC firmware.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by CrOhN » Mon, 10 Dec 2018, 16:58

Whel, false alarm on my inverter problem. Yesterday i took a more relaxed diagnosis time. Inverter is fine. Problem was with a power supply i use to equalize the batteries. As it is connected directly to output of the inverter (only a power socket), when i disconnected all the circuit-breakers, it would still trip the differential, because the socket direct connection to the inverter. That's what you get when you diagnose things after a day's work and wife buzzing you because of all the disconnects....

What is the latest firmware i can use with my inverter? I'm on the 52.30 and 1.24SCC.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by 6mdx » Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 07:50

paulvk wrote:
Mon, 05 Nov 2018, 05:56
Hello erland82
Remote monitoring is easy to do by using a RS232 to TCPIP HLK RM04 module
no programming knowledge required they are ready built just need a box and 5volts
I use them for my two systems that are 250Km apart so I can monitor both
from either location , settings can also be changed.
Would the temperature get that low where the units would be
they should be installed in fully protected area with good ventilation
they are not sealed against the environment
Batteries have problems at that low temperature.

Looking at your diagram the ML4860 has RS232 the HLK RM-04 has two ports for RS232
so you can monitor both with it.
If you get a HLK RM-04 now you can remotely monitor/control the ML4860 now
Also the HLK RM-04s can connect unit to unit creating RS232 > TCPIP -------- TCPIP > RS232 link

They are also have a wifi access point and router built in.
Hi paulvk, I ordered the HKL RM04, CAN SEE IT ON WIFI, BUT cant access due to password. No info with device re password. Any ideas?
Cheers

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 07:56

CrOhN wrote:
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, 16:58
Whel, false alarm on my inverter problem.

Glad that's sorted.
What is the latest firmware i can use with my inverter? I'm on the 52.30 and 1.24SCC.
Same answer as for brucetheloon, you can run 73.00d, or if you're keen to beta test the very latest, 73.00e with KettleKomp™.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 10:21

CrOhN wrote:
Mon, 10 Dec 2018, 16:58
What is the latest firmware i can use with my inverter? I'm on the 52.30 and 1.24SCC.
The latest firmware can always be found via the Firmware section of the index, which is in the first post (first page) of this thread.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 14:05

Here is the manual
https://www.prometec.net/wp-content/upl ... manual.pdf
admin/admin
also home page for router is 192.168.16.100/home.asp

It can be run off the power from PIP RJ8 jack
just needs a small switch mode power supply to get the 5V from the 15V
that is how I run my units
I have no problems changing settings on the PIPs using them

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Re: Big problems with PIP4848 - R / S / T (3 Phase) - ZERO PV input

Post by weber » Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 14:20

Ksears wrote:
Sun, 09 Dec 2018, 18:17
Hi there,

since a few days there is no PV Input into my PIP 4048MS - 0volts and 0watts and 0amps....
...
things i've checked:
-> Use a Multimeter = up to 70V and 3 to 7 amps input by each string (measured on the pip "PV" Terminals). So i think with the pv panels everything is ok?!
-> Reset every device to factory settings and re entered all the values manual.

Any ideas?
PV input measeared by multimeter 70V and displayed on PIP = 0V why?
Hi Ksears. When you say that you measured, with multimeter, 3 to 7 amps input by each string, are you saying that your pv array is charging your battery via the inverter, but the inverter is merely not displaying the PV voltage, power or current? Or are you instead saying that you can measure short-circuit current from the array but it is not charging your battery via the inverter. Either way, it sounds like a problem with the SCC (Solar Charge Controller) inside your inverter.

Does the PV array icon show up on the LCD when there is sun on the PV array?
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by serpentus » Wed, 12 Dec 2018, 05:12

[ Note from Coulomb: I accidentally edited this post when I meant to reply to it. This is a hazard of being a moderator. I've attempted to undo that, but I have missed some parts of the original post. @serpentus, I'm sorry if I have damaged your first post. I've reposted my accidental-edit as a proper reply here (next page). Unfortunately it now appears after your response to it. ]


I saw the Axpert MKS II 5K (the one with 450VDC MPPT) ( http://www.voltronicpower.com/oCart2/in ... uct_id=132 ). I wanted to ask if you guys know if this inverter has the premature floating bug issue. The inverter is the latest model ( that is what the dealer told me), just arrived in Chile. ...

Also I read in another forum that the Axpert invertors should not be used over the 40% of the rated output. Is this true? And why?

I want to know this before buying it. Or else I'll look for another brand.

EDIT: Same questions for the Axpert MKS 4K-48.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by serpentus » Wed, 12 Dec 2018, 12:33

Well... Now I'm in trouble, can't find a decent inverter. Xantrex, but it is expensive, out of my budget. Victron, do not like the one they are selling here, and it is to expensive (~USD 2.118).....

Will keep looking for another one. But it seems I'll have to import one myself.

Thank you very much for your answers and time.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 09:53

[ Note: Serpentus' post above, is a response to the following, which originally appeared when I accidentally edited his earlier post. My apologies for these two posts now being in reverse chronological order. ]
serpentus wrote:I saw the Axpert MKS II 5K (the one with 450VDC MPPT) ( http://www.voltronicpower.com/oCart2/in ... uct_id=132 ). I wanted to ask if you guys know if this inverter has the premature floating bug issue. The inverter is the latest model ( that is what the dealer told me), just arrived...
Sadly, almost certainly it does have the premature float bugs. Worse, there isn't a patched version of this firmware to correct it.

Voltronic Power: it's so simple! You've swapped float and absorb/CV voltages in your source code somewhere, and have been perpetuating that error in every inverter-charger firmware since. And it's so simple to demonstrate the problem, so you can't pretend it doesn't exist!

Also I read in another forum that the Axpert invertors should not be used over the 40% of the rated output. Is this true? And why?
That's nonsense. However, these are low-end inverters, and they do cut corners on the specifications for some of the components. That's why Weber and I always replace the MOSFETs and capacitors in all our inverters. That gives them more voltage "headroom" and the capacitors (which protect the MOSFETs) a lot more life. Of course, most people don't have the technical capacity to do this, so they just take the chance, and simply replace the inverter when it fails. As long as it's not a mission critical application, this probably makes economic sense.
I want to know this before buying it. Or else I'll look for another brand.
Brands like Victron and SMA have far better components inside. But the last time I looked at this (admittedly that's many years ago now), the next best inverter was many times the price of these Voltronic Power units. So for us, patching the firmware and upgrading some components was worth the extra effort. Maybe that's no longer the case.
EDIT: Same questions for the Axpert MKS 4K-48.
The same comments apply to all their inverter-chargers, although their Infini series (hybrids) may be different. I don't have enough experience to comment there.

[ Edit: this was originally posted a few posts ago, when I erroneously edited instead of quoted the original post. }
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by arnolde73 » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 22:07

I have my ESP8266 logger running now, logging straight to my webserver (InfluxDB/grafana). When I get it fixed up a little nicer I will post some screenshots (if anyone's interested).

One thing puzzles me: I calculate the pvPower from pvCurrent and pvVoltage, and log+chart that, as well as the SCCpower reading. Today I noticed that the calculated power is (approximately) twice as high as the SCC reading. Any idea why?

(By the way, I've ditched my worn-out AGM batteries *sniff* and hooked up a Pylontech US2000B instead. Already much better, apparently the AGM's have only 10-20% capacity left. I will get at least one more hooked in parallel soon.)

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by 6mdx » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 04:18

weber wrote:
Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 16:38
Release Version of Patched Firmware 72.20c for some PF1 models with the 64V option

[Edit1: On 12-Oct-2018 we replaced beta 72.20b here, with beta 72.20c that has a new load-control or go-to-standby command.]
[Edit2: On 11-Nov-2018 we replaced beta 72.20c here, with release 72.20c. The only change was the first letter of the version number (from B to L).]

This patched firmware fixes the premature-float bugs in the manufacturer's firmware for the PIP-5048MS, Axpert MKS 5K-48 (PF1 with 64V option) and equivalents. i.e. machines supplied with main firmware version 72.xx where xx ≤ 30. It also contains our Dynamic Current and Load Control (DCLC) and AussieView™ additions, and we have provided a version with our voltage and current threshold changes for LFP cells. i.e. It has the same functionality as 73.00c (PF0.8) except that in the LFP version, the minimum tail current to go from absorb to float has now been reduced from 5 A per machine
Hey guys been running the lpf version since the day of release, thankyou.
Have had no issues, but a question or two.

Regarding absobtion, what time period is desireable?

Regarding charging, I am not getting the charging I expected. I have 4.5kw of panels 3s3p per pair or strings (for total of 18 x 60 cell) but seldom see over 2.5kw going into the battery (have seen 53A charging for an hour two). 02 is set to 80A, and util charging is set to 10A


On another note are you planing to add the kettle mod to this release?

Cheers Robert.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 06:43

arnolde73 wrote:
Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 22:07
One thing puzzles me: I calculate the pvPower from pvCurrent and pvVoltage, and log+chart that, as well as the SCCpower reading. Today I noticed that the calculated power is (approximately) twice as high as the SCC reading.
PV power is pvCurrent multiplied by battery voltage, not PV voltage. The reported "PV current" is battery-side current, not PV-side current as most users expect.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 09:39

6mdx wrote:
Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 04:18
Hey guys been running the lpf version since the day of release, thankyou.
Have had no issues, but a question or two.

Regarding absobtion, what time period is desireable?

Regarding charging, I am not getting the charging I expected. I have 4.5kw of panels 3s3p per pair or strings (for total of 18 x 60 cell) but seldom see over 2.5kw going into the battery (have seen 53A charging for an hour two). 02 is set to 80A, and util charging is set to 10A

On another note are you planing to add the kettle mod to this release?

Cheers Robert.
Hi Robert. Thanks for letting us know that the LFP version of 72.20c is working for you.

Regarding absorb time. I think that with LFP cells it is best to use the "Aut" setting. This will go to float when the battery voltage is within 0.5 V of the absorb setting and the charge current (in whole amps) falls below either 3 amps or setting [02] divided by 12, whichever is greater. So in your case it would go to float when it fell below 6 amps, i.e. when it dropped to 5 amps (for 30 seconds).

Regarding your low charging current: What size is your battery, what make and model of cells, and what is your absorb voltage setting? I'm wondering if your absorb voltage is too low to overcome the battery internal resistance at more than 53 amps. There is a small chance that this could instead be due to a bug in our patched firmware 72.20c. This could be determined by reflashing with the original 72.20 and seeing if that particular problem goes away. But I think we would have heard from others by now if that was the case.

Yes, we are planning to put out a beta 72.20d as soon as possible, which will have the KettleKomp mod for the PIP-5048MS. The irony is, we originally wrote KettleKomp for the PIP-5048MS, back when Tom kindly loaned us his 5048s for testing. But in early testing, we loaded some bad code that meant the bootstrap loader never got called again, and so we could never load any more code—commonly referred to as "bricking it".

I immediately ordered a replacement control board from MPPSolar. That was on the 23rd of October. The ordering process was a nightmare. Sending photos of the board we wanted, and the serial number of the inverter, eventually sorted it out (or so we thought). Then there were problems with their online payment system. Tom was more than patient, but when, after 4 weeks, I queried the status of the order, and learned that they still hadn't shipped it, I ordered a whole new inverter to be delivered to Tom, on eBay (at least that works). So now I own a 5048MS. The control board finally arrived 4 days ago (after 7 weeks!), but the nightmare isn't over. The new board arrived with unfamiliar firmware (version 71.20) which is missing the equalisation settings, and the board has some different resistors and capacitors. So there have been more emails back and forth with MPPSolar, sending photos of the new and old boards and the inverter label. I'm still waiting for them to tell me what the story is. Maybe it's the wrong board, or maybe it just needs a firmware update.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

6mdx
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Posts: 37
Joined: Tue, 23 May 2017, 21:17
Real Name: Robert Black
Location: Lismore

Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by 6mdx » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 16:12

weber wrote:
Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 09:39
Hi Robert. Thanks for letting us know that the LFP version of 72.20c is working for you.

Regarding absorb time. I think that with LFP cells it is best to use the "Aut" setting. This will go to float when the battery voltage is within 0.5 V of the absorb setting and the charge current (in whole amps) falls below either 3 amps or setting [02] divided by 12, whichever is greater. So in your case it would go to float when it fell below 6 amps, i.e. when it dropped to 5 amps (for 30 seconds).
Runing aut
Regarding your low charging current: What size is your battery, what make and model of cells, and what is your absorb voltage setting?
Battery is 15s 180 aH CALB

Asorbtion setting is 52.5 V
Yes, we are planning to put out a beta 72.20d as soon as possible, which will have the KettleKomp mod for the PIP-5048MS.
Excellent
I immediately ordered a replacement control board ...
Bummer
I'm still waiting for them to tell me what the story is. Maybe it's the wrong board, or maybe it just needs a firmware update.
So frustrating

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