PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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andys
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 13:39

Thanks coulomb!

I am pondering buying an Elcon PFC charger to charge off generator, though it is alot of $$$, and I read they are not necessarily that reliable!

offgridQLD: You should consider what I did, the full fan speed mod. Just disconnected the 4th wire to the fans and they run at 100% all the time, thus (I hope!) prolonging the life of the other components.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by 6mdx » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 06:15

My 5048 pwm has variable speed fans. It never gets hot. The exit air is barely warm with 2 kw ouput plus 2 or 3 kw solar.
But having said all that, the SCC has died and I am currenly undergoing the waranty claim process.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gbeppe » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 02:20

sorry for the intrusion, I'm new to the forum even if I read it often. I have a system with two PIP-4048 inverters, 28 300W photovoltaic panels, 24 100ah lead batteries. I made a program that reads and analyzes all the data provided by the CPU and I would say that I'm happy, but I'm missing only the part relating to the configuration of the PC parameters because I can not get the command, that is, I send the command es. PBFT and I receive ACK, but the setting does not change.
Question: is there any instruction to send before the command to accept it?
Sorry for the trouble. Thanks for the possible answer.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 05:44

Welcome @gbeppe

I'm guessing you have not set the battery type to "user", either by using the LCD and buttons to set parameter [5] to "USE" or "uSr", or by sending a serial command PBT02 with a CRC of 0x074C.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by DanoP » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 15:31

Hello coulomb and weber,
did you plan in next firmware add/modify PIP commands to dynamically switch to bypass mode (for LiFe batteries)?
Now we have possibility to dynamically limit charging current (good for top balancing), but it would by also great to have possibility to force PIP in bypass mode, when some cell reaches low voltage limit. I know I can get it changing either output source priority or battery cut-off voltage, but both are writing to EEPROM.
That would also allow to go to bypass when battery SOC reaches low limit.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gbeppe » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 18:42

Thanks for the quick response. No, no, the battery is set correctly USER, but the problem is not here, but on any configuration command sent by PC. I almost get the impression that before sending the command, you need a second confirmation command, but I have no idea what it is.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Vissie » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 19:27

Morning
I received another inverter for repairs
This one had ghekko's inside that shorted the bus. The battery side fets and the 4 igbts of the inverter full bridge and the buck igbt were blown. It also burned a hole in the main board. Also a few drive resistors were gone.
Well I managed to scope the signal like Coulomb described and the signal looks fine. I get the gate signal on the bat side fets and on the dc dc igbt's
I do not get a pulse for the igbts on the inverter full bridge Igbts but it seems like its driven from a small ic or maybe the control board
So I am bit scared to switch it on without knowing if they get signal. I think after building all the faulty parts back I should only connect the current limited dc supply on the battery terminals and see what happens
Please can some one tell me how to post photos. I got it right the first time but not again

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 19:54

gbeppe wrote:
Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 18:42
... the problem is not here, but on any configuration command sent by PC. I almost get the impression that before sending the command, you need a second confirmation command, but I have no idea what it is.
If you get the ACK, the EEPROM value should have changed. It should also have sent the changed value to any paralleled machines. Have you checked against the LC Display? Perhaps your other software isn't checking the changed value correctly, perhaps returning a cached value or some such. If it's on a web page, control-F5 is your friend.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 20:20

Vissie wrote:
Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 19:27
This one had ghekko's inside that shorted the bus.
Wow. I bet the critter involved had a bad day too :o
The battery side fets and the 4 igbts of the inverter full bridge and the buck igbt were blown. It also burned a hole in the main board. Also a few drive resistors were gone.
Well I managed to scope the signal like Coulomb described and the signal looks fine. I get the gate signal on the bat side fets and on the dc dc igbt's
Ok, that's good.
I do not get a pulse for the igbts on the inverter full bridge Igbts but it seems like its driven from a small ic or maybe the control board
Yes, the main inverter IGBTs are driven by ePWM1 and ePWM2 (both A and B outputs, so 4 signals total) of the microcontroller. So that's from the control (daughter) board, probably buffered on either the control board or the main board, or possibly even both.
So I am bit scared to switch it on without knowing if they get signal. I think after building all the faulty parts back I should only connect the current limited dc supply on the battery terminals and see what happens
That's wise. Unfortunately, I don't think we've figured out how to do that as yet.

The answer would seem to be a sort of dummy daughter board, which might be little more than a piece of Veroboard with appropriate pins (maybe less than a dozen); you'd want to make sure that no gate driver inputs are left floating. Also ensure that the bus soft start circuit is disabled. It would be nice if it's difficult to plug in such that the pins are one hole away from where they should be.

The board might have a pair of 555 ICs, and maybe a switch, so you can pulse the upper IGBTs and lower IGBTs separately or together. Of course, have generous dead time built into the circuit, so the upper and lower transistors of a pair never turn on together. This would all be run with about 12 VDC current limited to 0.5A or so on the DC bus.

If you work it out, please publish the schematic here.
Please can some one tell me how to post photos. I got it right the first time but not again
Just drag an image into the edit pane. Or, since you've done it before, the main trick to remember is that the needed attachment tab is often off the page, and you need to use scroll bars to get to it.

However, we have had some users claim that sometimes the attachment tab simply refuses to appear. It's never happened to me, but I haven't been posting many images or other attachments on this forum lately. Our web master, Rob, is aware of this issue, but last I know (a week or so ago) he was at a conference and had little spare time for web administration. It's also rather baffling. It's possible that you can drop an image into the edit pane even if the attachments tab isn't visible.

There is also my New Forum Tips post. Scroll down to the "How to post an image" section.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 21:00

DanoP wrote:
Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 15:31
Hello coulomb and weber,
did you plan in next firmware add/modify PIP commands to dynamically switch to bypass mode (for LiFe batteries)?
Now we have possibility to dynamically limit charging current (good for top balancing), but it would by also great to have possibility to force PIP in bypass mode, when some cell reaches low voltage limit. I know I can get it changing either output source priority or battery cut-off voltage, but both are writing to EEPROM.
That would also allow to go to bypass when battery SOC reaches low limit.
Hi DanoP. That's an interesting idea. But it would be a lot of work to implement, and it doesn't seem necessary. The EEPROM can be written to every 5 minutes for 9.5 years without wearing out.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by bigjsl » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 21:22

Forum user hwassie published a Python program to read the data from a PIP and upload it to a database.

I was more interested in pvoutput.org where I already graph my old Xantrex system, originally with an Arduino using some code I open sourced and then more recently with something on a RaspberryPi that I found that does an OK job.

Since then I have written some code that counts pulse from a kwh meter and publishes them too but that's a project for another night.

This is pretty primitive and I have only just got it running properly tonight. My graphs from today are wrong but I'm pretty sure I have fixed the bugs now.

Feedback, improvements etc welcome.

Enjoy!
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CollectPIP.zip
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gbeppe » Wed, 12 Sep 2018, 00:23

Coulomb, In fact, with the answer "ACK" I was convinced commando accepted. But no. My program, after transmitting in command and waiting for the answer, goes to read the status of the EPROM and I always return the unmodified value. I am attaching the portion of the writing and reading program:

void __fastcall TFotoVolMain::TTrasmitCode(AnsiString Buftx)
{

unsigned int crc2 = 0;
char testo[128];
testo[0] = '\0';
TObject *Sender;
if(Configura->BufSalvaTX != "") {
Buftx = Configura->BufSalvaTX; // Comand "PCN03"
}

if (Visible){
if ( ComPort->Active ) {
crc2 = cal_crc_half(Buftx.c_str(), Buftx.Length());
int y = Buftx.Length();
memcpy(&testo, Buftx.c_str(), y);
testo[y++] = crc2 >> 8;
testo[y++] = crc2 & 0xff;
testo[y++] = 0x0d;
testo[y++] = '\0';
String TX(testo);
ComPort->Timeouts->ReadMultiplier = 100;
ComPort->Timeouts->ReadConstant = 100;

try {
// send data
ComPort->WriteAnsiString(TX);
}
catch(Exception& e)
{
Label40->Caption = IntToStr(Rientri++);
ComPort->Active = false;
ButtonOpenCloseClick(Sender);
}

try {
// read received data
Sleep(700);
RX = ComPort->ReadAnsiString(); // Get "ACK"
}
catch(Exception& e)
{
Label40->Caption = IntToStr(Rientri++);
ComPort->Active = false;
ButtonOpenCloseClick(Sender);
}
ReadPort();
}
Update();

}
}

the next lap, I go to read the status of the EPROM and I return the value not changed. However, if you confirm that there are no further instructions either before or after the command, I will have to look elsewhere. Thank you

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Wed, 12 Sep 2018, 06:02

In case it helps anyone, I have my own C program I use to talk to the PIP over USB from Linux.

Its just a binary you run and you can pipe data to it (STDIN) and it replies over STDOUT. So you can treat it like a terminal.

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/andys ... ster/pip.c

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by bigjsl » Wed, 12 Sep 2018, 09:21

andys wrote:
Wed, 12 Sep 2018, 06:02
Its just a binary you run and you can pipe data to it (STDIN) and it replies over STDOUT. So you can treat it like a terminal.
Nice!

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by bubla » Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 20:58

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 12:29
Patched Firmware 72.20a for PF1 models with 64V option

What's this? Has Coulomb gone mad?...

This patched firmware fixes the premature-float bugs in the manufacturer's firmware for the PIP-5048MS (with 64V option), Axpert MKS 5K-48 (PF1, with 64V option), and equivalents. ...
hi coulomb,
would it be possible to make float patch for lifepo4 battery even for pip2424msxe? a lot of people would have helped
Thanks

[ Edit Coulomb: trimmed over-long quote. ]

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 07:53

bubla wrote:
Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 20:58
hi coulomb,
would it be possible to make float patch for lifepo4 battery even for pip2424msxe? a lot of people would have helped
Thanks
Hi bubla.
As I wrote at the end of this post: viewtopic.php?p=69059#p69059
Coulomb and I are willing to fix the premature float bugs in any model closely related to the PIP-4048MS (neither grid-feed nor hybrid). That includes the PIP-2424MSXE. But to do so we need someone to send us a recent firmware update file for that machine.

I'm sorry that it is not practical for us to make the other changes to suit LFP batteries. Those are changes in the ranges and default values of the low-cutoff and back-to-utility voltage settings, and the offsets for the automatic low-voltage-warning and back-to-bulk thresholds. Fixing the premature-float bugs only requires changes in 2 locations (and 2 more to change the version number). But LFP requires changes in another 23 locations. We'd almost certainly introduce new bugs when making so many changes, and we wouldn't have any way to test them. Anecdotally, it's impossible to write more than 5 lines of code without introducing a bug. :)
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 09:21

weber wrote:
Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 07:53
But to do so we need someone to send us a recent firmware update file for that machine.
However, it's possible that such firmware is already available. I have for example the firmware for Axpert VM II 1200/2400/3000/4000/5000 W models (first 3 are 24 V machines), firmware version 20.44. Both the VM II and VM III series (Value Models/Machines?) are not parallelable. [ Edit: it's Value MPPT; Weber explains it all next post. ] These might correspond to the PIP XXXE models (Economy).

I also have firmware version 18.22 for dual MPPT non parallelable machines, PF0.8, 12-48V 1200 or 2400 W (4 models).

Given the "2424" in your PIP model number, it's likely a 2400 W 24 V machine, but with the many different models out there, I can't be certain.

One of these *might* be the same model as what you have. If so, we could patch it and you could try it, but at your own risk, and if it doesn't work, your machine is essentially bricked unless you can get a factory firmware from your supplier. You would be helping the community by letting us know what you find.

So the first step would be: please provide as much information about your machine as possible: present firmware versions, and any ratings as reported on the label and/or by WatchPower or other monitoring software. You can easily eliminate it being a VM III model by the LC DIsplay; for a VM III it would look similar to the attached. (From this Power Forum post). Or if it does look like the attached, then the above two guesses are wrong.

[ Edit: Added comment re PIP XXXE model names. ]
Attachments
Axpert VMIII LC Display.jpg
Axpert VM III LC Display
Axpert VMIII LC Display.jpg (82.17 KiB) Viewed 1305 times
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 13:46

The Voltronic Zoo

I just compiled a spreadsheet of what Coulomb calls "The Zoo" of Voltronic 230 Vac off-grid wall-mount inverters, with the specs that distinguish them from each other. I also give model numbers for the equivalent inverters from MPP Solar, when they exist.

It only includes currently available models, not all the past models, some of which have the same numbers as current models, but different specs!

I note that when a model has a 64V option (for maximum absorb or equalise voltage), MPP Solar sell it only with that option.

Zoo.xlsx
(14.08 KiB) Downloaded 51 times

Here's a decoder for Voltronic model numbers of the form:

Axpert www xxxx-yy pppp.

www contains one of the following strings:
  EX = PWM
  KS = PWM (equiv PIP-HS and PIP-HSP)
  VP = PWM, economy (lower charge current and not parallelable) (equiv PIP-HSE)
  MEX = MPPT
  MKS = MPPT (equiv PIP-MS and PIP-MSP)
  MKS II = MPPT 450 V (equiv PIP-MG)
  VM = MPPT, economy (lower charge current and not parallelable) (equiv PIP-MSE and PIP-MSXE)
  VM II = MPPT 500 V (equiv PIP-GE)
  VM III = MPPT 400 V or 500 V, removable display (equiv PIP-GK)
  King = MPPT, removable display (equiv PIP-MK)
  Plus Duo = 2 x MPPT (equiv PIP-MSD)
  Plus Tri = 3 x MPPT (equiv PIP-MST)
xxxx (digits with possible decimal point and possible "K" for kilo) = apparent power in volt-amps
yy (digits only) = battery voltage
pppp is either "Plus" or not present
  Plus = MPPT SCC with max Voc = 145 V, in the case where another model differs only in having a lower-voltage SCC (equiv PIP-zzXz)

Here's a decoder for MPP Solar model numbers of the form:

PIP-xxyyzzz(www).

xx (digits only) = true power in hundreds of watts
yy (digits only) = battery voltage
zzz contains 2 or 3 (and in one case 4) of the following letters:
  M = MPPT SCC (first letter)
  H = PWM SCC (first letter)
  G = MPPT SCC with max Voc ≥ 400 V (first or second letter)
  S is meaningless (second letter)
  K = Removable display (second letter)
  E = Economy (lower charge current and not parallelable) (second, third or fourth letter)
  P = power factor 0.8 (third letter)
  D = Dual MPPTs (third letter)
  T = Triple MPPTs (third letter)
  X = MPPT SCC with max Voc = 145 V, in the case where another model differs only in having a lower-voltage SCC (third letter)
(www):
  (1) = power factor 1, in the case where another model differs only in having a lower power factor
  (64V) = has the 64 V max absorb voltage option
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by bubla » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 18:31

weber wrote:
Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 07:53

Hi bubla.
As I wrote at the end of this post: viewtopic.php?p=69059#p69059
Coulomb and I are willing to fix the premature float bugs in any model closely related to the PIP-4048MS (neither grid-feed nor hybrid). That includes the PIP-2424MSXE. But to do so we need someone to send us a recent firmware update file for that machine.
hello Weber,
and can I download the current firmware from the inverter or do I need to get it from the manufacturer?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 18:53

bubla wrote:
Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 18:31
hello Weber,
and can I download the current firmware from the inverter or do I need to get it from the manufacturer?
Unfortunately, it is not possible to download the current firmware from the inverter.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 17 Sep 2018, 06:22

gbeppe wrote:
Wed, 12 Sep 2018, 00:23
Coulomb, In fact, with the answer "ACK" I was convinced commando accepted. But no. My program, after transmitting in command and waiting for the answer, goes to read the status of the EPROM and I always return the unmodified value. I am attaching the portion of the writing and reading program:
...
the next lap, I go to read the status of the EPROM and I return the value not changed. However, if you confirm that there are no further instructions either before or after the command, I will have to look elsewhere. Thank you
There is no confirmation command required either before or after the value setting command.
gbeppe wrote: Buftx = Configura->BufSalvaTX; // Comand "PCN03"
I've never heard of a "PCN" command. Is this a typographical error? If not, what does it do?

You did not answer Coulomb's question:
coulomb wrote:
Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 19:54
If you get the ACK, the EEPROM value should have changed. It should also have sent the changed value to any paralleled machines. Have you checked against the LC Display? Perhaps your other software isn't checking the changed value correctly, perhaps returning a cached value or some such. If it's on a web page, control-F5 is your friend.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Mon, 17 Sep 2018, 07:31

@bubla, thanks to Weber's excellent "Voltronic Zoo" post, it seems likely that your PIP-2424MSXE is the same as a PIP-3024MSXE, except that it's from before the switchover to PF1.0 for that series in about February 2018. Weber says that the PIP-3024MSXE is equivalent to the Axpert VM 3000-24 Plus, so your PIP-2424MSXE would be equivalent to the Axpert VM 2400-24 Plus. The VM  and VM II seem to differ mainly by the 500 V MPPT in the latter, same as the VM IIIs which have the removable display.

So now the question is whether the VM and VM II share the same firmware. My guess is no, in which case I don't have a firmware to patch for your machine, unless it's a dual MPPT model. When you tell us the version number for the factory firmware (U1 information page on the LC display), we'll get a better clue as to whether the firmware I have (VM II version 20.44) is suitable for you.

[ Edit: Weber pointed out to me in email that the two models in question have different maximum charge current settings, so there is no chance that any firmware I have matches your hardware. Also, the PIP-2424MSXE is not a dual MPPT model, so that knocks out the other firmware contender. So we'll have to wait until the matching firmware becomes available after all. ]

[ Edit: added "for that series". ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gbeppe » Mon, 17 Sep 2018, 15:53

Opss ... Coulomb, is an error, the exact command is PCP. However now everything is fine, I had made a mistake on re-reading EPROM. Thanks all right. I wanted to send you a screenshot of the main page, but I have no idea how to do it ...

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by bubla » Wed, 19 Sep 2018, 06:40

Hello Coulomb and Weber,
I'm sending more details about 2424MSXE. Photo of the production label does not allow me to upload here.
Version 3024MSXE is a new manufacturer's label. I think it should probably be the same with 2424MSXE.

PF1

QVFW: VERFW: 00014.23
QVFW2: VERFW2: 00000.00
QPIRI:
230.0 - Grid rating voltage (V)
13.0 - Grid rating current (A)
230.0 - AC output rating voltage (V)
50.0 - AC output rating frequency (Hz)
13.0 - AC output rating current (A)
3000 - AC power rating apparent power (VA)
2400 - AC power rating active power (W)
24.0 - Battery rating voltage (V)
24.0 - Battery re-charge voltage (V)
24.0 - Battery under voltage (V)
27.8 - Battery bulk voltage (V)
26.8 - Battery float voltage (V)
2 - Battery type (0: AGM, 1: Flooded, 2: User)
20 - Current max AC charging current (A)
050 - Current max charge current (A)
1 - Input voltage range (0: Appliance, 1: UPS)
2 - Output source priority (0: Utility first, 1: Solar first, 2: SBU first)
3 - Charger source priority (0: Utility first, 1: Solar first, 2: Solar + Utility, 3: Only solar charging allowed)
1 - Parallel max num
01 - Machine type (00: Grid tie, 01: Off Grid, 10: Hybrid)
0 - Topology (0: Transformerless, 1: Transformer)
0 - Output mode (00: single machine output, 01: parallel output)
25.5 - Battery re-discharge voltage (V)
0 - PV OK condition for parallel
1 - PV power balance

Inverter Mode:
Rated Power: 3000VA/2400W
DC Input: 24VDC, 100A
AC Output: 230VAC, 50/60Hz, 13A, 1

AC Charger Mode:
AC Input: 230VAC, 50/60Hz, 20.8A, 1
DC Output: 27VDC,
Max.60A, Default 30A
AC Output: 230VAC, 50/60Hz, 13A, 1

Solar Charger Mode:
Rated Power: 1500W
System Voltage: 24VDC
Operating Voltage Range: 30-115Vdc
Max. SOlar Voltage (VOC): 145VDC

Do you happen to know if there is a command to manually start the equalization?
Menu 36
Even if the inverter is in float, after the manual equalization is turned on, the batteries are recharged. I would set the charging voltage and the low time to avoid overcharging the battery. And the script was triggered in the case of a weak battery.
this option would help me before solving the float problem

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 19 Sep 2018, 14:42

Gnome wrote:
Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 22:38
Hey all

Anyone tried the new Axpert VMIII or Axpert King?

I don't expect any problems with it doing what it claims. However I'm curious if the existing communication protocol still works with the newer models.

Apologies if this has been answered before, the thread is quite epic in length.
Definitely not answered before. But at least I can now translate this question into a form that Aussie readers may understand. ;)

Anyone tried the new PIP-GK or PIP-MK? Does the the existing communication protocol still work with these models?

They both have a removable display. The GK has a 500 V MPPT while the MK has the safer 145 V MPPT.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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