PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 05 Aug 2018, 13:09

Thanks Coulomb. As you probably guessed, I somehow missed the "DOD".

Robert, if you're looking for a low voltage cutoff setting for the PIP, for LFP cells, we use 3.17 V per cell in Brisbane, and 3.13 V per cell in locations further inland where the overnight temperature goes below zero in winter. As rested voltages, those correspond to about 7% and 5% SoC, but there will almost always be some load that takes the voltage below those thresholds at 20% to 40% SoC. And the PIP gives a warning well before that happens.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by curasun » Sun, 05 Aug 2018, 18:46

Good day guys,

One quick question, what bms are you using?
I'm planning to build a powerwall of liyhium-ion batteries in 14s configuration.
My concern is most BMS's for lithium ion balance at top at 4.2v and bottom at 2.5v. I don't wanna go to this extremes to prolong battery life. I'm using now a PCM60x and a PIP4048, can I limit the charge and dischage to 4.0v top and 3.0 bottom with the PCM60X AND pip4048 and let the BMS do the rest.

I was looking at this BMS, by Chargery.com, but I don't know if it can use solar as the charging source. but it looks promising.
www.chargery.com

What do you guys think?

Best regards R.G.Specht
From Carribean.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by 6mdx » Mon, 06 Aug 2018, 06:38

Weber and Coulomb, thank for the detailed replies. Looking forward to sending the lead to Pb heaven. At close to a ton, it should give me money to buy more toys.

I ordered a BMS from the same WA place as the Calb180s. hopefully it will do the job, but I do wish i had asked you guys first.

cheers Robert

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kimo-23 » Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 09:43

hello to everyone in this forum.
I'm Italian and I'm proud to be with you in this forum.
I have a problem and I hope someone can help me :-)
I have an Opti-solar sp5000 brilliant inverter.
it worked great for 2 years.
I do not know what my dad has done, and the charger board has burned.
I bought it from the parent company (opti-solar) and replaced it.
my problem is when I connect the batteries to start the inverter gives me the error (code 03) (battery over charged), I checked the voltage of the batteries and is 49 volts.
I also tried other batteries and always gave me the same error.
in the display where there is battery information, it gives me a voltage of 119 volts !!!!!
thanks to anyone who can help me to solve the problem.
and sorry for my poor English.
if you need some more information about my inverter, ask.
thank you

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by reecho » Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 20:46

Is there a possibility for custom firmware for the 3024MSE?.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 07:23

Hi Kimo-23. When you say you replaced the "charger board", do you mean the solar charge controller (SCC) board? Or the main board that contains the AC charger (and inverter)?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 07:57

reecho wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 20:46
Is there a possibility for custom firmware for the 3024MSE?.
Sorry Reecho, but no. At least not from Coulomb and I. As you can imagine, it is very time-consuming work. Keeping up with PIP-4048MS firmware, and hopefully soon PIP-5048MS firmware, when new versions come out, is as much as we can handle. And even if we wanted to, we don't have a copy of the 3024MSE firmware and we don't have a machine to test it on.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kimo-23 » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 14:33

weber wrote:
Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 07:23
Hi Kimo-23. When you say you replaced the "charger board", do you mean the solar charge controller (SCC) board? Or the main board that contains the AC charger (and inverter)?
Hi Weber thank you for the answer.
replaced the SCC that is located across the top of the inverter.
I also detached the main board and I also checked the diodes and the resistors (following the instructions of the MANUAL SERVICE) it seems that everything is fine, but keeps giving me the error 03.
I would like to try to update the software, can you explain how to do it?
if it can do with the inverter turned off?
thank you so much

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 15:06

Hi Kimo-23. I don't recommend updating the software at this stage. I suggest disconnecting the SCC completely from the main board, and then seeing if the SP5000 will work as an inverter and AC charger without giving the error 03. My thinking is based on the fact that the main board requests the battery voltage via serial communication from the SCC, as well as reading it from its own sense resistors. This experiment would establish whether the wrong voltage reading is due to the new SCC.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by reecho » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 18:54

weber wrote:
Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 07:57
reecho wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 20:46
Is there a possibility for custom firmware for the 3024MSE?.
Sorry Reecho, but no. At least not from Coulomb and I. As you can imagine, it is very time-consuming work. Keeping up with PIP-4048MS firmware, and hopefully soon PIP-5048MS firmware, when new version come out, is as much as we can handle. And even if we wanted to, we don't have a copy of the 3024MSE firmware and we don't have a machine to test it on.
No probs. This site i'm working on (swapping Trojan lead for AVASS LifePo 4 with the mentioned PIP) may end up upgrading in the future. I will have to set some easy limits with the SCC and monitor it closely.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 22:19

reecho wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 20:46
Is there a possibility for custom firmware for the 3024MSE?.
I agree with Weber's comments. However, I note that the MSE series, being "economy" models, aren't parallelable. So they should not have the major charge bug, which is in a function associated with parallel operation. In fact, I believe that the source file name with the main charge bug is "parallel.c". [ Edit: It seems I was wrong; see this post. ]

So the major impetus for patching the firmware would not be present.

As a point of interest, what features were you hoping for in a patched firmware?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 15:42

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 22:19
... I note that the MSE series, being "economy" models, aren't parallelable. So they should not have the major charge bug, which is in a function associated with parallel operation. In fact, I believe that the source file name with the main charge bug is "parallel.c".
Despite asking Coulomb to explain this in email, I still have no idea why he thinks that the function containing the bug is "associated with parallel operation" in such a way as to suggest that it would not be present in a non-parallelable machine. The function is only associated with parallel operation in the weak sense that almost every function needs to consider other machines in parallel, when they can exist. The bug itself is not associated with parallel operation in any way.

The bug is in the function that checks whether the conditions have been met to go from absorb stage to float stage. This is required whether machines are parallelable or not. As Coulomb discovered, the bug consists in choosing the smaller of the absorb and float voltage settings when it should be choosing the larger. The cause was probably a programmer typing a "<" instead of a ">".

The MSE and MS series are so similar in every respect apart from parallelability, that I think it is almost certain they use the same code-base. I think the parallel version of that function was almost certainly created by copying a non-parallel version and modifying it. But there was no reason to revisit the buggy comparison in that process, as this only involves voltage settings, and voltage settings are necessarily the same across all machines in parallel. Other functions take care of that.

So I think it is highly likely that the MSE series have the same premature-float bug as the MS. But there is no need to rely on either Coulomb's theory or mine. If you have one, you can just do the experiment I describe here:
viewtopic.php?title=pip4048ms-inverter& ... 332#p59896

The good news is that Coulomb and I have weakened. :) We will look at fixing the premature float bug (only), in any model closely related to the PIP-4048MS (off-grid, not grid-feed or hybrid), if someone can send us a firmware update file for it, e.g. by forum private message. We will keep such benefactors anonymous.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kimo-23 » Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 18:27

weber wrote:
Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 15:06
Hi Kimo-23. I don't recommend updating the software at this stage. I suggest disconnecting the SCC completely from the main board, and then seeing if the SP5000 will work as an inverter and AC charger without giving the error 03. My thinking is based on the fact that the main board requests the battery voltage via serial communication from the SCC, as well as reading it from its own sense resistors. This experiment would establish whether the wrong voltage reading is due to the new SCC.
Hi I tried to disconnect the SCC from the mainboard and connect only the batteries but the inverter does not start. I am desperate. is there any other way to remove the error 03 thank you very much

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 19:07

Kimo-23 wrote:
Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 18:27
Hi I tried to disconnect the SCC from the mainboard and connect only the batteries but the inverter does not start. I am desperate. is there any other way to remove the error 03 thank you very much
My mistake. I think there is a thin white cable with a 2-pin plug, from the SCC to the main board, that is needed to allow the main board to work. For this experiment, I think you can have every connection from the SCC to the main board except for the white ribbon cable that goes from the SCC to the processor daughter board. I think it has a 6 pin or 8 pin white plug. [Edit: Turns out it's 4 pin] It is a serial comms cable. Just leave that one disconnected, so the main board cannot communicate with the SCC. Then connect only the battery and see if it works as an inverter without the error 03.

What is the U1 version number?

When you reconnect the SCC comms cable, and connnect solar panels and battery, what is the U2 version number?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 20:59

Kimo-23 wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 09:43
in the display where there is battery information, it gives me a voltage of 119 volts !!!!!
The LC Display of the inverter model we know shows the battery voltage as NN.N, so a maximum of 99.9 V. How did you see the 119 V figure? [ Edit: I was wrong. Up to 999 V can be displayed by removing the decimal point. ]

Edit: "does not start" could mean doesn't invert, or nothing displays at all. In "fault mode" (when a fault code like 03 is showing), the inverter will never invert, but I believe you can still scroll through the display settings with the up and down buttons. What does the battery voltage say?

My recollection is that the 2-pin connector from the SCC is just as an alternative way to start the machine. So I don't think that should stop the inverter from displaying anything.
Use the rocker switch under the machine to start it.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kimo-23 » Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 01:58

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 20:59
Kimo-23 wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 09:43
in the display where there is battery information, it gives me a voltage of 119 volts !!!!!
The LC Display of the inverter model we know shows the battery voltage as NN.N, so a maximum of 99.9 V. How did you see the 119 V figure?

Edit: "does not start" could mean doesn't invert, or nothing displays at all. In "fault mode" (when a fault code like 03 is showing), the inverter will never invert, but I believe you can still scroll through the display settings with the up and down buttons. What does the battery voltage say?

My recollection is that the 2-pin connector from the SCC is just as an alternative way to start the machine. So I don't think that should stop the inverter from displaying anything.
Use the rocker switch under the machine to start it.
i see the 119 figure in the battery information's the inverter start but with error
i scrolled through the display settings, the battery voltage say 119v :-(

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 08:05

Kimo-23 wrote:
Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 01:58
i scrolled through the display settings, the battery voltage say 119v :-(
My apologies. It seems that battery voltages up to 999 V can be displayed. My only suggestion is that the battery sense resistors or some other part of the battery voltage sense circuit have been damaged, presumably during the SCC replacement. Possibly one of these 1 MΩ resistors:

Possible battery sense resistors.jpg
Possible battery sense resistors.jpg (133.55 KiB) Viewed 1461 times
One megohm is a high value resistor, so some sort of slightly conductive gunk around one or more of them could change the battery reading dramatically. Higher conductivity of these high-side sense resistors will lead to a higher than actual battery voltage reading. They will be under some form of coating, which would normally protect them, so this may have been scratched or otherwise damaged. I'm not 100% certain that these are the battery sense resistors, but the in-line formation and being so close to the battery fuse (marked 200 in the photo; yours may look quite different) suggests that they are.

The rest of the battery sense circuitry might be found by following the traces under the white silk screen cover (this seems to be an additional protection, over and above the usual green solder resist, to protect sensitive PCB traces). But the rest of the circuit could possibly be as simple as a single resistor and capacitor to battery negative.
[ Edit: however, with the two strings of resistors visible, this suggests an operational amplifier to respond to the difference between two voltage dividers. ]
[ Edit 2: So my suggestion would be to measure the value of those eight resistors; in-circuit should be OK. ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by reecho » Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 09:50

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 22:19
reecho wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 20:46
Is there a possibility for custom firmware for the 3024MSE?.
As a point of interest, what features were you hoping for in a patched firmware?
LifePo4 charging support for AVASS cells... :-). But it appears setting bulk and float to the same voltage might work.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 11:08

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 20:59
My recollection is that the 2-pin connector from the SCC is just as an alternative way to start the machine. So I don't think that should stop the inverter from displaying anything.
Use the rocker switch under the machine to start it.
Coulomb is correct. I just tried it.
Kimo-23 wrote:
Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 01:58
i see the 119 figure in the battery information's the inverter start but with error
i scrolled through the display settings, the battery voltage say 119v :-(
Was that with the SCC connected to the main board?

You still haven't told us your main and secondary version numbers, to the right of "U1" and "U2", as shown on the LCD by pushing the Up button.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kimo-23 » Thu, 16 Aug 2018, 00:24

weber wrote:
Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 11:08
coulomb wrote:
Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 20:59
My recollection is that the 2-pin connector from the SCC is just as an alternative way to start the machine. So I don't think that should stop the inverter from displaying anything.
Use the rocker switch under the machine to start it.
Coulomb is correct. I just tried it.
Kimo-23 wrote:
Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 01:58
i see the 119 figure in the battery information's the inverter start but with error
i scrolled through the display settings, the battery voltage say 119v :-(
Was that with the SCC connected to the main board?

You still haven't told us your main and secondary version numbers, to the right of "U1" and "U2", as shown on the LCD by pushing the Up button.
no, the SSC was not connected to the main board
u1 01 and u2 52
thanks

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 16 Aug 2018, 21:10

Kimo-23 wrote:
Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 18:27
... but the inverter does not start. I am desperate. is there any other way to remove the error 03
There is a small chance that resetting to default settings will fix the problem. Use Watchpower or ICC or other monitoring software, or send a REEP (REset EeProm) command with the usual CRC and carriage return.

Also, the U1 and U2 version numbers you sent seem wrong. Both have two two-digit numbers, e.g. U1 52 30 and U2 01 24. You won't see the U2 version number unless the SCC is connected and running with PV and daylight.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Fri, 17 Aug 2018, 06:57

I don't think WatchPower or ICC will send the undocumented REEP command, only the weaker documented PF command. The REEP command will have to be sent manually, using a terminal-emulator program.

The "usual CRC" for a REEP command cannot be typed as normal characters. In hexadecimal it is C6C2 (obtained as the XModem CRC from Lamert Bies CRC calculator).

Coulomb has a post here telling us how to manually send commands to a PIP, except it is about sending commands to change the AC output voltage.
viewtopic.php?p=66646#p66646

To send a REEP command, substitute the following key sequences for those Coulomb gives in that post.

For a correctly set up Tera Term:
shift+R    shift+E    shift+E    shift+P    right alt+shift+F    right alt+shift+B    enter

For RealTerm or AccessPort:
0x52 0x45 0x45 0x50 0xC6 0xC2 0x0D
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kimo-23 » Sat, 18 Aug 2018, 23:22

thanks to all of you because you are helping me. I'm not so practical about these things. can you explain to me how I can update / reset my opti-solar.thanks a thousand

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 19 Aug 2018, 21:27

Kimo-23 wrote:
Sat, 18 Aug 2018, 23:22
can you explain to me how I can update / reset my opti-solar.
As Weber pointed out, the WatchPower program is unlikely to use the REEP command; it's more likely to use the PF command, which I believe won't do the job of resetting an internal flash value that is used to calibrate the battery voltage measurement.

So you need to send a command to the inverter through the RS-232 port. For this, you will need a computer and a USB to RS232 adapter, like the one in this post. In order to talk to the serial port, you need a terminal emulator program, such as TeraTerm, RealTerm, or AccessPort. These are all free programs, you can find them readily by Google or other search. TeraTerm is a little harder to set up, so I'd suggest one of the others. Follow instructions to set up the correct serial port, and set the speed to 2400 bps (bits per second). You should be able to type junk at it (say abcenter) and it should respond with something like (NAKss (this is a Negative Acknowledge, i.e. it didn't understand or accept the command. The "ss" are more CRCs).

Nearly all commands have to end with a pair of valid Cyclic Redundancy Characters (CRCs). Weber has calculated the CRCs for the REEP command in the above post. The CRCs are eight bit characters, so they're not necessarily "printable", and as luck would have it, neither of them is printable. So that's why you have to send the command in hexadecimal form. Sending abcenter in hexadecimal is 0x71 0x72 0x73 0x0D. The "0x" (zero, not Oh) is a common way to specify a character in hex; it comes from the C programming language. 0x71 happens to be the ASCII code for character 'a'; 0x0D happens to be the hex code for the "enter" character that terminates all commands.

So once you are set up, all you need to do is to paste
0x52 0x45 0x45 0x50 0xC6 0xC2 0x0D
into the terminal program, and the inverter should reply with
(ACK9
The response is an open parenthesis (indicating the start of a response), and "ACK" for positive acknowledge (the inverter understood and has accepted the command). The "9" is the first CRC character; the inverter adds CRCs to its responses as well. The second CRC character happens to be a space character, so it's not visible.

Hopefully that makes more sense to someone who's not experienced with these things. Give it a go, and ask more detailed questions if necessary.

Unfortunately, this command may only fix one of the two internal flash values that are used to calibrate the battery voltage reading (one is an offset, the other is a scale factor). And of course, your problem may be hardware, not flash values. But it would seem worth a try.

[ Edit: fixed mangled keyboard formatting ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kimo-23 » Mon, 20 Aug 2018, 05:30

Thank you very much
The inverter it should be attached ti the battery and PV ti do the Reset?
Thank you for your patience

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