PIP-4048MS inverter

non-EV Solar, Wind and other renewable power sources
non-EV batteries and other energy storage stuff
Forum rules
Important!
This forum is for discussion of Non-EV matters.
ionutd
Noobie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 21:35
Real Name: IonutD

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 13:25

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40
How does the BMS drop out the PIP system, disconnect battery ?
Yes. Crude, but effective :evil:
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40
The neutral from the inverter is switched, but not the supply neutral.
I don't think i got this, you mean that you only switch the load, but you leave the inverter with the GRID ON ?
Sorry, that was a bit obscure. The active is switched between the inverter and the grid, and the neutral to the inverter disconnects when in there is no inverter output, but the load always connects to grid neutral.

charliefd
Noobie
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 20:39
Real Name: Adrian
Location: Bucharest, RO

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:36

ionutd wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 13:25

....
The active is switched between the inverter and the grid, and the neutral to the inverter disconnects when in there is no inverter output, but the load always connects to grid neutral.
....
If I read the above correctly in your setup the grid neutral will be connected to the inverters' output neutral when the load is powered by the inverters ? And this will stay true for both bypass mode and battery/solar mode.

The company that performed the installation warned that in battery mode the neutral is "floating" and I could have trouble using devices that expect true zero potential neutral line (e.g. certain type of flame detectors). Moreover they stated that a true 4p switch-over switch should be used and not a 3P+N that has the N permanently connected to one of the sources.

Connecting the the various neutrals to the same reference (grid neutral) sounds like good practice to me as long as the inverters don't mind. To complicate things more there is the option to have neutral tied to ground by the inverters when in battery mode: i guess with your setup that option needs to stay off ?!

Thanks for educating me with all this! Reading this thread alone has been a tremendous jump-start for me. In time I hope I will be able to contribute to it.
For now I can report my experience running 73.00c on all 3 inverters without issues (3 days now). I will also warn others against performing the upgrade with the grid connected to the inverters: for 2 out of 3 inverters the flashing went on without issues, the 3rd one started extremely slow (more than 1h to 40%) and kept dropping out of the process at various percentages. Re-trying would usually resume the flashing (just as slow) until at 65% dropped out and resumed at ... 30%. By that time it was obvious it might never finish, so I cut all power to it, turned it on on battery only (no LCD by now) and the flashing went on flawlessly and just as fast as the other 2 had been: 9blocks/s.

ionutd
Noobie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 21:35
Real Name: IonutD

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 05:32

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40

Yes. Crude, but effective :evil:
Cool, what relay/contactor do you use for that ?

Thanks
Last edited by ionutd on Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 05:49, edited 1 time in total.

ionutd
Noobie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 21:35
Real Name: IonutD

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 05:35

charliefd wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:36

I will also warn others against performing the upgrade with the grid connected to the inverters: for 2 out of 3 inverters the flashing went on without issues, the 3rd one started extremely slow (more than 1h to 40%) and kept dropping out of the process at various percentages. Re-trying would usually resume the flashing (just as slow) until at 65% dropped out and resumed at ... 30%. By that time it was obvious it might never finish, so I cut all power to it, turned it on on battery only (no LCD by now) and the flashing went on flawlessly and just as fast as the other 2 had been: 9blocks/s.
i had the same issue with one of the inverters and both grid and solar were disconnected and no load on the inverter, had to restart and flash again.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3165
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 07:38

charliefd wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:36
If I read the above correctly in your setup the grid neutral will be connected to the inverters' output neutral when the load is powered by the inverters ? And this will stay true for both bypass mode and battery/solar mode.
Yes, that's right.
The company that performed the installation warned that in battery mode the neutral is "floating" and I could have trouble ...
It's true that for models that came with firmware before 73.00, there is no connection from inverter neutral output to earth under any conditions. However, in the models that come with 73.00, there is a new changeover relay that connects the inverter neutral either to earth when in battery mode, or to the AC input neutral otherwise. I can't find anything in the firmware that operates this new relay, so I now assume that the neutral to earth relay switches when the inverter output relay switches. However, the changeover relay seems to have a normally closed connection with earth that changes load nuetral to connect to AC input neutral when the coil is energised. So this new relay connects load neutral to earth when the power is off.
To complicate things more there is the option to have neutral tied to ground by the inverters when in battery mode: i guess with your setup that option needs to stay off ?!
We don't have an external relay to connect AC out neutral to earth when the dry contact signal is on, no. When you use the dry contact option, you have to provide the relay yourself, external to the inverter-charger case.

[ Edit: the new neutral to earth relay has changeover contacts. Also reworded. ]
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2413
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 07 Jul 2018, 11:49

A picture can be worth a thousand words. Coulomb kindly pointed me to an early schematic showing an early arrangement of the AC relays in the PIP4048-MS. [Edit: The later arrangement, still prior to 73.00, has only 3 relays. It seems the inverter relay is omitted.] Below is my best guess at the present (73.00) arrangement, that connects neutral to earth when in battery mode.

73.00Guess.png
73.00Guess.png (22.45 KiB) Viewed 253 times

This is based on the fact that there are still only 4 relays, but one of them has changed from normally-open to changeover. I assume it is the one that was already switching the neutral, and that this has not changed its location.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2413
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 07 Jul 2018, 12:18

Here's a table showing all possible relay states.

Inverter  Safety     Output    Mode
relay     relays     relay
-----------------------------------------
off       off        off       Off
off       off        on        (pointless)
off       on         off       (pointless)
off       on         on        Line mode (not AC charging)
on        off        off       (pointless)
on        off        on        Battery mode
on        on         off       ? (AC charging with loads off?)
on        on         on        Line mode (AC charging)

Unless the state with the question mark is actually used, I can't see the point of the output relay. Can anyone suggest a reason for it?
[Edit: Coulomb sensibly suggests, in the above-linked post: "Perhaps the [output] relay goes off if a short circuit is detected on the load."]
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
Tejota
Noobie
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue, 29 Nov 2016, 12:07
Real Name: MDKTejota
Location: Spain
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Sun, 08 Jul 2018, 15:30

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 06 Jul 2018, 07:38

It's true that for models that came with firmware before 73.00, there is no connection from inverter neutral output to earth under any conditions. However, in the models that come with 73.00, there is a new changeover relay that connects the inverter neutral either to earth when in battery mode, or to the AC input neutral otherwise. I can't find anything in the firmware that operates this new relay, so I now assume that the neutral to earth relay switches when the inverter output relay switches. However, the changeover relay seems to have a normally closed connection with earth that changes load nuetral to connect to AC input neutral when the coil is energised. So this new relay connects load neutral to earth when the power is off.
Models with 73.00 only connects neutral to earth in battery mode when param 28 is SIG (parallel board inserted) or when there is not parallel board in (not param 28 obviusly).

If you put param 28 to PAL, neutral to earth is not connected in any situation: always floating.

I dont know why.

Alex_50174
Noobie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 18:36
Location: Novokuibyshevsk, RU

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Alex_50174 » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:07

Hi guys!
Sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language.
I'm trying to repair a pair of 5kVa inverters. They worked in parallel and died in one time.
And I want to guess why that happened.
There was an 100A circuit breaker (C100 for 220V AC) between batteries and inverters (1 circuit breaker for 2 inverters) and it tripped.
After that MOSFETs at the battery side shorted, DC-DC IGBTs are also shorted, but INV full bridge IGBTs are not shorted.
Is it possible that when circuit breaker tripped during normal inverters operation there was a power surge that killed transistors in both sides?

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3165
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56

Alex_50174 wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:07
Hi guys!
Welcome, Alex.
There was an 100A circuit breaker (C100 for 220V AC) between batteries and inverters (1 circuit breaker for 2 inverters) and it tripped.
100 A is quite light for two inverters in parallel. It also sounds like they were only AC rated; you need DC rated fuses or breakers there. When they opened at something over their rated current, they may well have arced, pitting the contacts, and that may have interrupted the power to the inverters many times in a fraction of a second. The natural inductance of the battery cables may have caused voltage transients.

If you did not replace the original MOSFETs and capacitors, then they were already running very close to their limits. A few rapid inductive spikes could well have sent them into avalanche breakdown.
After that MOSFETs at the battery side shorted, DC-DC IGBTs are also shorted, but INV full bridge IGBTs are not shorted.
Is it possible that when circuit breaker tripped during normal inverters operation there was a power surge that killed transistors in both sides?
Certainly. However, it's also possible that heat caused the capacitors that protect the battery-side MOSFETs to dry and become high impedance, allowing the transients on the 50 V bus to kill those MOSFETs, and the transformer coupled the transients (plus new ones from the short on the 50 V bus) to the DC-DC IGBTs. The new transients on the 50 V bus couple to the other inverter via the battery cables, killing that inverter as well. Of course, the shorted MOSFETs would cause the battery breaker to trip. Arcing and pitted contacts might have been the mechanism to transfer the transients from one inverter to the other.

This is all very speculative; it's hard to know what happens in a breakdown situation unless everything is instrumented and logged in a laboratory situation.

Edit: you have also likely blown several gate driver parts. See the index (first post this topic) for what to look out for, should you attempt to repair the inverters.
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

Alex_50174
Noobie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 18:36
Location: Novokuibyshevsk, RU

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Alex_50174 » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 00:20

Hi, coulomb.
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56
100 A is quite light for two inverters in parallel. It also sounds like they were only AC rated; you need DC rated fuses or breakers there. When they opened at something over their rated current, they may well have arced, pitting the contacts, and that may have interrupted the power to the inverters many times in a fraction of a second. The natural inductance of the battery cables may have caused voltage transients.
Yes, I know that C100 AC breaker is not a good idea for that invertors and I already said to the electrician all I think about he. It should be noted that I only deal with the repair of inverters and they got to me already in a faulty state. I already repaired a month ago the MPPT charger part of one of this inverters when the electrician connected about 7000Wt solar panels to one inverter...
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56
If you did not replace the original MOSFETs and capacitors, then they were already running very close to their limits. A few rapid inductive spikes could well have sent them into avalanche breakdown.
There are original 75V IRFB3307Z. It is interesting that their appearance is normal, but the leftmost and rightmost transistors are with burnt legs because of the high current. So, it's was a my guess that the voltage raised above 75V for a fraction of a second.
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56
However, it's also possible that heat caused the capacitors that protect the battery-side MOSFETs to dry and become high impedance, allowing the transients on the 50 V bus to kill those MOSFETs, and the transformer coupled the transients (plus new ones from the short on the 50 V bus) to the DC-DC IGBTs.
I think that it's not a reason. Invertors worked only 1 or 2 month, the capacitors usually do not dry so quickly. Full capacitance of 4 capacitors with unsoldered MOSFETs is 13300 (but I haven't ESR meter so I can not be sure).
Also, my inverters are bit different in some parts from described - capacitors are 3300uF 80V "success" (I guess that it is Chinese noname).
DC-DC and buck IGBTs are FGW50N60HD, inverter bridge IGBTs are FGW75N60HD.
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56
This is all very speculative; it's hard to know what happens in a breakdown situation unless everything is instrumented and logged in a laboratory situation.
Yes, of course. But users of this invertors said that they not exclude short circuit at the AC output. But I think that if it really was, it couldn't be a reason, it could cause increased load and tripping the battery breaker.
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56
Edit: you have also likely blown several gate driver parts. See the index (first post this topic) for what to look out for, should you attempt to repair the inverters.
Of course, I will check and repair gate drivers.

Thank you!

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3165
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 08:20

Alex_50174 wrote:
Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 00:20
It should be noted that I only deal with the repair of inverters and they got to me already in a faulty state.
Good to hear that there are other repairers out there. There is such a throw away mentality these days, perhaps more so in the West.
I already repaired a month ago the MPPT charger part of one of this inverters when the electrician connected about 7000Wt solar panels to one inverter...
I would have thought that too many panels would not be such a serious problem. But I suppose the control system has to operate faster with higher power panels (in good light conditions). Good to know, thanks.
There are original 75V IRFB3307Z. It is interesting that their appearance is normal, but the leftmost and rightmost transistors are with burnt legs because of the high current.
Interesting. They seem to be using the original worst-spec MOSFET, except for an added "Z" in the main part of the part number. These "Z" parts have the same or slightly improved specs in most areas, except for pulsed drain current, where it is improved from 120 A (wire bond limited) to 510 A. My guess is that the "Z" versions use some sort of welding technique to connect the package leads to the die, and the non-"Z" versions use traditional wire bonding. So in the non-"Z" versions, you effectively have internal 120 A fuses, and in the "Z" versions, these effective fuses are absent. So the TO-220 leads become the fuse.
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:56
However, it's also possible that heat caused the capacitors that protect the battery-side MOSFETs to dry ...
I think that it's not a reason. Invertors worked only 1 or 2 month, the capacitors usually do not dry so quickly.
Fair enough, but see next.
Also, my inverters are bit different in some parts from described - capacitors are 3300uF 80V "success" (I guess that it is Chinese noname).
Oh. Considering that the original Jamicons were a special order, it seems that someone somewhere has used inferior parts, with inferior ripple current ratings. Is it possible that these are actually clones, not genuine Voltronic Power manufactured?
But users of this invertors said that they not exclude short circuit at the AC output. But I think that if it really was, it couldn't be a reason, it could cause increased load and tripping the battery breaker.
I would guess that shorting the output would affect the 230 V IGBTs more than the other IGBTs and MOSFETs.

[ Edit: added "to connect the package leads to the die". ]
[ Edit: added "with inferior ripple current ratings" .]
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

Alex_50174
Noobie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 18:36
Location: Novokuibyshevsk, RU

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Alex_50174 » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 16:54

coulomb wrote:
Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 08:20
Good to hear that there are other repairers out there. There is such a throw away mentality these days, perhaps more so in the West.
I think that it is all over the World tendention.
coulomb wrote:
Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 08:20
I would have thought that too many panels would not be such a serious problem. But I suppose the control system has to operate faster with higher power panels (in good light conditions). Good to know, thanks.
Maybe it was a manufacturing defect. It burned after first turning on. I have changed a logic chip before gate driver PWM сhip to stop burning transistors.
coulomb wrote:
Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 08:20
Interesting. They seem to be using the original worst-spec MOSFET, except for an added "Z" in the main part of the part number. These "Z" parts have the same or slightly improved specs in most areas, except for pulsed drain current, where it is improved from 120 A (wire bond limited) to 510 A.
As I can see in service manual from first page, there were IRFB3307Z in original inverters too (in older versions). And pulsed drain current for Z - 512A, for non-Z - 510A (from datasheets), so differences are not so big.
coulomb wrote:
Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 08:20
Oh. Considering that the original Jamicons were a special order, it seems that someone somewhere has used inferior parts, with inferior ripple current ratings. Is it possible that these are actually clones, not genuine Voltronic Power manufactured?
Maybe there are a clones. I can see only model name "Inverter 5kVa-48VDC" and there is no a firm name. Inverters were bought at the Aliexpress.
I'll try to measure ESR with PC's audio card. If it will be not big that it will mean good quality of capacitors. If ripple current not enough, ESR will be big I think.

User avatar
Gnome
Noobie
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 22:25

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Gnome » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 22:38

Hey all

Anyone tried the new Axpert VMIII or Axpert King?

I don't expect any problems with it doing what it claims. However I'm curious if the existing communication protocol still works with the newer models.

Apologies if this has been answered before, the thread is quite epic in length.

Post Reply