PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

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coulomb
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

klaus.ramge wrote: Sun, 06 Sep 2020, 17:21 I upgraded the last inverter successfully to 71.00e.
Great!
I found a curcuit board inside the fourth inverter, which is connected by a cable with the board where I can plug in the serial cable for the computer.
If the larger of the two boards looks like the below, it's the control board, with the DSP chip, which contains the firmware in its flash memory. So if you swap this board, whatever inverter that board ends up in is the one you need to update. Of course, in a clone, it may all be different.

PIP 5048 Control board and DSP sm.jpg
PIP 5048 Control board and DSP sm.jpg (252.4 KiB) Viewed 1020 times
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by klaus.ramge »

I did it!
Problem temporarily solved, Upgrade of the firmware successfully!
In took out the little board with the serial connector from a working inverter
Borrowed Communication Board (from working inverter).jpg
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and used it in the inverter, where the upgrades always failed,
Borrowerd Communication Board (in bad inverter).jpg
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with this borrowerd board, the upgrade ran properly:
FirmwareVersion.jpg
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Thanks for your help!
...Klaus

PS: Does anybody has an Idea if I could use another board (and where to find this board) instead of the defective one, maybe one with bluetooth or network connection abilities?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by paulvk »

Replace U1 and U2 on the little board these are opto couplers and degrade over time they stop working at the faster baud rate that the upgrade uses.
Now for network connectivity I use HLK-RM04 serial to TCPIP unit with the test board it can be used with WIFI or Ethernet cable and no
modification to the inverter is needed.
Also you can use the power on the RJ45 port of the inverter along with a 5V switching power board as I do to run it.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Vissie »

coulomb wrote: Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 18:12
Vissie wrote: Fri, 04 Sep 2020, 16:36 Ok. Inserting an Axpert control card wont work. The footprint is completely different
Yes, it's a VM model, but presumably not a VM II (those have 450 V max SCC).
The current firmware is U1 20 30
What I have to load is U1 72 70 etc. Im not sure if it will even load and if the inverter will still work afterwards
No, 72.70 is either quite old PF0.8 firmware for 4 kW PV (this one is 3 kW), or very modern PF1.0 also for 4 kW PV and 64 V max.

I've never seen Axpert VM (non II) firmware.
Hi
As I could not find firmware I modified the hardware. On each pole of the bus capacitor they have 2 strings of 3M resistors going to the control card. I add a 120K resistor on each string. That fixed the problem. I checked the bus voltage in battery mode and while charging till the battery was full when it used to give the error.
The max it reached was 384V which I think is in spec
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Vissie »

Hi
Can anyone tell me the function of U21. Op amp OP07. It sits just below all the opto drivers . It went up in smoke. I also had to replace all 5 inverter and buck boost IGBTs and some of its drive resistors. Funny thing the driver circuits for Q27 to 30 was also blown . 4 of the diodes and transistors on the ic driver but not the igbts
This thing had surge damage.
Now I get 57 Current sensor failed. That is normally when the control card is faulty. But if I replace the control card with a good one I still get the same fault code
Any ideas?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Roman khan »

Vissie wrote: Tue, 08 Sep 2020, 17:46 Hi
Can anyone tell me the function of U21. Op amp OP07.
OP07 IC is for current sensing if it is faulty you will get over current fault.also check the three smd capacitors c185,c192 and c181 and two L44 smd double diodes.once i resolved the fault57 by replacing c181.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by urubuolx »

I checked the power supply and all values are properly produced. I can read 12V, 15V -12V and 24V. I removed and measured the capacitors C75, C78, C20 and C141 and all are in good shape and within values in correct tolerance.
I also notice that first inverter stage seem to been working. I got 392V on C40 and C41 (the big 470uF 500V capacitors) only with battery connected to inverter.
I also notice that at CSD19505 TO220 MOSFETS, voltage is increasing up to 30V and dropping again with same clicking sound frequency. Is this a clue for something?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

urubuolx wrote: Thu, 10 Sep 2020, 06:29 I also notice that at CSD19505 TO220 MOSFETS, voltage is increasing up to 30V and dropping again with same clicking sound frequency. Is this a clue for something?
It has to be a big clue. Are you seeing this voltage across capacitors C8/C9/C12/C13? These are all in parallel. They're suppose to be at battery potential.

Edit: if not, where exactly are you seeing this ramping voltage?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

Vissie wrote: Wed, 25 Mar 2020, 23:04
coulomb wrote: Wed, 25 Mar 2020, 18:54
Vissie wrote: Wed, 25 Mar 2020, 16:31 The voltages are to low. The 12V is 11.2V. The 15V is 14V. All the capacitors are good
If it was just that the voltages are low, I'd suspect the source resistors and components back to the Isense input (R205, R215, R225, C82), or possibly U10 itself.
The inverter starts up and works for about 30 sec and than reset or switch the output off. It does not give an error code
That sounds more like an overload somewhere, that is dragging the power supply down, and it eventually collapses. That would be hard to track down.

I see that +12 and +15 are down by the same amount (93% of nominal value). Are the others (±12 V, +5 V etc) all down the same amount? If one of them is down significantly more than the others, it could be the one that is dragging the whole power supply down. At least that would narrow the search a bit. The other thought is to use a non-contact thermometer to find parts that are overheating.
The voltages are as follow:
D57 on primary side of transformer only 13.8V( must be 15?)
D54 11.36V (must be 12v)
D67 8.83V to U5 (7805) 5V
D70 - 14.97v to U20(lm7912) -12v
R205,215,225 are good. Cant find C82
Will feel the board for warm components.
Hi friends , Thanks to all my very senior members I am new member here i have read different topics and discussion in this forum it helps me to repair many inverters.

I have inverter with the startup issue when i switch on it shows low battery and then shutdown with blank screen and not showing any error i change its Cap of Dc supply but fault is still please help me to its solution

Inverter Detail:
5000VA/5000WATT
DC INPUT 48VDC,118A
AC OUTPUT 230VAC
SCC 3000WATT
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Roman khan »

tahir wrote: Tue, 15 Sep 2020, 03:18
Vissie wrote: Wed, 25 Mar 2020, 23:04
coulomb wrote: Wed, 25 Mar 2020, 18:54
If it was just that the voltages are low, I'd suspect the source resistors and components back to the Isense input (R205, R215, R225, C82), or possibly U10 itself.


That sounds more like an overload somewhere, that is dragging the power supply down, and it eventually collapses. That would be hard to track down.

I see that +12 and +15 are down by the same amount (93% of nominal value). Are the others (±12 V, +5 V etc) all down the same amount? If one of them is down significantly more than the others, it could be the one that is dragging the whole power supply down. At least that would narrow the search a bit. The other thought is to use a non-contact thermometer to find parts that are overheating.
The voltages are as follow:
D57 on primary side of transformer only 13.8V( must be 15?)
D54 11.36V (must be 12v)
D67 8.83V to U5 (7805) 5V
D70 - 14.97v to U20(lm7912) -12v
R205,215,225 are good. Cant find C82
Will feel the board for warm components.
Hi friends , Thanks to all my very senior members I am new member here i have read different topics and discussion in this forum it helps me to repair many inverters.

I have inverter with the startup issue when i switch on it shows low battery and then shutdown with blank screen and not showing any error i change its Cap of Dc supply but fault is still please help me to its solution

Inverter Detail:
5000VA/5000WATT
DC INPUT 48VDC,118A
AC OUTPUT 230VAC
SCC 3000WATT
Welcome to the forum!
Check the battery voltage sensing section,there are eight 1 mega ohm resisters in two series.the schematic drawn by Weber is as follow.
Attachments
IMG_1060b (1).jpeg
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Last edited by weber on Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected attribution of schematic from "Coulomb" to "Weber".
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

Roman khan wrote: Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 05:20
tahir wrote: Tue, 15 Sep 2020, 03:18
Vissie wrote: Wed, 25 Mar 2020, 23:04

The voltages are as follow:
D57 on primary side of transformer only 13.8V( must be 15?)
D54 11.36V (must be 12v)
D67 8.83V to U5 (7805) 5V
D70 - 14.97v to U20(lm7912) -12v
R205,215,225 are good. Cant find C82
Will feel the board for warm components.
Hi friends , Thanks to all my very senior members I am new member here i have read different topics and discussion in this forum it helps me to repair many inverters.

I have inverter with the startup issue when i switch on it shows low battery and then shutdown with blank screen and not showing any error i change its Cap of Dc supply but fault is still please help me to its solution

Inverter Detail:
5000VA/5000WATT
DC INPUT 48VDC,118A
AC OUTPUT 230VAC
SCC 3000WATT
Welcome to the forum!
Check the battery voltage sensing section,there are eight 1 mega ohm resisters in two series.the schematic drawn by Weber is as follow.

Thanks Roman Khan
Fault gone by 1 mega resistance replace.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Roman khan »

Hi
Some people connect the output neutral of an inverter to the main neutral line they put a jumper wire between input neutral and output neutral. And load of house is supplied by single live wire.will this harm inverter?what are drawbacks of this wiring?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

> Will this harm the inverter?
No. It shorts one of the relay contacts, meaning it never has significant current flowing through it.
> what are drawbacks of this wiring?
It depends on your local power supply method. If as most of Australia you have MEN (Multiple Earhed Neutral, also called MGN in North America), which is a form of TN-C-S, then connecting AC-in N and AC-out N is OK and safe. That's because you have a separate connection from neutral to earth, and you won't be relying on the earth connection at the transformer, which could be cut by activity far from your premises, and not be aware of the danger.

If however you have the TN-S* earthing system that is common but not universal in South Africa, where the incoming main breaker is double pole (switching neutral as well as active), then you must not connect AC-in and AC-out neutrals, as you would then be relying on the transformer's connection to earth, and this will be unsafe and illegal. In these cases, you have to connect AC-out neutral to a suitable local earth (proper earth stake, there will be local regulations for this), only when AC-out is not already connected to AC-in. Failure to do this properly will result in non-fault currents through earth conductors, which are not designed for this. It will also play havoc with residual current detectors.

[ Edit: *I hope I got that right. I'm relying on this post by a well regarded poster (who seems to have changed his name to underscore recently). ]

[ Edit: added "TN-S" for the earthing system common in South Africa. Also added "but not universal". ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

tahir wrote: Sat, 19 Sep 2020, 03:56
Roman khan wrote: Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 05:20
tahir wrote: Tue, 15 Sep 2020, 03:18

Hi friends , Thanks to all my very senior members I am new member here i have read different topics and discussion in this forum it helps me to repair many inverters.

I have inverter with the startup issue when i switch on it shows low battery and then shutdown with blank screen and not showing any error i change its Cap of Dc supply but fault is still please help me to its solution

Inverter Detail:
5000VA/5000WATT
DC INPUT 48VDC,118A
AC OUTPUT 230VAC
SCC 3000WATT
Welcome to the forum!
Check the battery voltage sensing section,there are eight 1 mega ohm resisters in two series.the schematic drawn by Weber is as follow.

Thanks Roman Khan
Fault gone by 1 mega resistance replace.
Hi Friends.

I have same issue with another same inverter 1M resistances replaced but on display battery sign showing low battery then go to shutdown without showing any error.
I checked basic components and also change the control card but same error still
Please help to solve this fault

Thanks to All Experts
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

more pics
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

Does the inverter's battery voltage reading agree with that of a trusted multimeter reading at the battery terminals? If not, it could be a battery voltage calibration issue. See the index of the PIP-5048MS topic.

The calibration should really be changed or at least checked every time the resistors are changed. Changing up to 10 1% resistors could result in a 10% difference in reading, so a 50V battery could read as low as 45V or as high as 55V. [ Edit: this is not correct; thanks to Weber for pointing that out. I think the highest error could be 4%: all 1 M resistors 1% high on one side, the corresponding 4.99 k resistor 1% low, and the other side opposite. With 10 resistors involved, it's fantastically unlikely that they would all be at maximum tolerance and in the right direction all at once, so the error would likely average out to some 1-2%. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

Thanks i am using power supply to repair inverters and set at 46.5vdc
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

tahir wrote: Thu, 24 Sep 2020, 18:22 Thanks i am using power supply to repair inverters and set at 46.5vdc
Ah. Is it strong enough to power the inverter when the "inverter proper" (DC-AC power converter) starts up? Even with no load, the initial start-up surge is significant for a laboratory power supply.

46.5 V is quite low; it may be low enough to go straight from power-up mode to shut-down mode. Can you run it at a higher voltage, perhaps at least 48, preferably 50 V?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

coulomb wrote: Fri, 25 Sep 2020, 06:16
tahir wrote: Thu, 24 Sep 2020, 18:22 Thanks i am using power supply to repair inverters and set at 46.5vdc
Ah. Is it strong enough to power the inverter when the "inverter proper" (DC-AC power converter) starts up? Even with no load, the initial start-up surge is significant for a laboratory power supply.

46.5 V is quite low; it may be low enough to go straight from power-up mode to shut-down mode. Can you run it at a higher voltage, perhaps at least 48, preferably 50 V?
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

tahir wrote: Fri, 25 Sep 2020, 19:11
coulomb wrote: Fri, 25 Sep 2020, 06:16
tahir wrote: Thu, 24 Sep 2020, 18:22 Thanks i am using power supply to repair inverters and set at 46.5vdc
Ah. Is it strong enough to power the inverter when the "inverter proper" (DC-AC power converter) starts up? Even with no load, the initial start-up surge is significant for a laboratory power supply.

46.5 V is quite low; it may be low enough to go straight from power-up mode to shut-down mode. Can you run it at a higher voltage, perhaps at least 48, preferably 50 V?
yes 46.5v is low but it is enough to startup the inverter i have repair many inverter on this voltage range but this time the different issue with the inverter as my observation the strings of 1M resistance giving 57.5mv on standby mode to control card its ok but ON mode its giving 45.5mv instead of 46.5mv that the reason as i increase the power supply volt 46.5v to 50v inverter run perfectly with error 04.

i have solved the fault by adding 2 1M resistances in parallel on both 1M strings now working fine. Is this way ok to repair? need senior experts advice.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

More Image
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb »

tahir wrote: Fri, 25 Sep 2020, 19:17 the strings of 1M resistance giving 57.5mv on standby mode
It looks like there is a 803:1 voltage divider (4.005 MΩ and 4.99 kΩ), so that seems about right.
but ON mode its giving 45.5mv instead of 46.5mv
I don't understand where the 46.5 mV is coming from. Are you saying that when the inverter changes from standby mode to battery mode, the voltage to the control board drops a lot?
i have solved the fault by adding 2 1M resistances in parallel on both 1M strings now working fine. Is this way ok to repair? need senior experts advice.
The inverter needs to have a reasonably accurate reading of the battery voltage, so that it can charge the battery properly, and not overcharge it. I don't follow what you are doing here. If you had open circuit 1 M resistors, then soldering a good 1 M resistor in parallel is fine (but you should re-calibrate the battery voltage readings).

If you're just forcing a wildly inaccurate reading to get past the error, then no, that's not an OK repair method. Forgive me if I've misunderstood what you are doing.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by tahir »

coulomb wrote: Fri, 25 Sep 2020, 21:57
tahir wrote: Fri, 25 Sep 2020, 19:17 the strings of 1M resistance giving 57.5mv on standby mode
It looks like there is a 803:1 voltage divider (4.005 MΩ and 4.99 kΩ), so that seems about right.
but ON mode its giving 45.5mv instead of 46.5mv
I don't understand where the 46.5 mV is coming from. Are you saying that when the inverter changes from standby mode to battery mode, the voltage to the control board drops a lot?
i have solved the fault by adding 2 1M resistances in parallel on both 1M strings now working fine. Is this way ok to repair? need senior experts advice.
The inverter needs to have a reasonably accurate reading of the battery voltage, so that it can charge the battery properly, and not overcharge it. I don't follow what you are doing here. If you had open circuit 1 M resistors, then soldering a good 1 M resistor in parallel is fine (but you should re-calibrate the battery voltage readings).

If you're just forcing a wildly inaccurate reading to get past the error, then no, that's not an OK repair method. Forgive me if I've misunderstood what you are doing.
46.5mV on 1M resistance strings on battery mode when inverter power switch is ON
57.5mV on 1M resistance strings on battery mode when inverter power switch is OFF
these voltages checked on same parallel working inverter board.


45.5mV on 1M resistance strings on battery mode when inverter power switch is ON
57.5mV on 1M resistance strings on battery mode when inverter power switch is OFF
Faulty inverter giving me on same batteries


you are right , the voltage to the control board drops a lot?

In my previous post i wrote that the inverter is going shutdown on battery mode due to low battery sign without showing any error it was a battery volt sensing fault. I replaced all 1M and 4.99k resistances but the fault was still as it is. So i have try to resolved the fault by decrease the resistance value to increase the battery sensing volts.

Experts if you have any other repairing /checking method for this please guide me.

Thanks
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by MasterCATZ »

I have 5x of these 4kw inverters I believe they are

http://voltronicpower.com/en-US/Product ... 8a1Z8ptNxk


The LCD units are dead so I can not get them to turn on and a few of them no longer have communication/laptop access via USB but seem to still function and 1 unit keeps flipping the earth detection leak

how would I go about getting parts? and is their anyway to bypass the LCD , the display was pretty much usless but needed to long hold press the buttons to turn unit on or else it sat their beeping at you doing nothing ...

and should I upgrade the capacitors ? or just wait for them to blow ?
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jdavies1994
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Posts: 15
Joined: Sat, 16 Feb 2019, 20:19

Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by jdavies1994 »

Came home to all my power off this evening and found I had a dead short in one of my inverters :(

Taking it apart I found one igbt and one MOSFET in pieces 😬

I'm probably going to replace all 16 MOSFETs and the 4 igbts. Would anything else be recommended to change? Could it have been something else that caused this or just unlucky?
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