PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by andys »

Isn't going below 48V pretty bad for them anyway? It means either very low charge or low charge plus high discharge rate. Not something you want to do to your equipment!
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

rexx wrote: Thu, 16 Jan 2020, 19:08 Hi help needed , cant load up 72 70c firmware , cant find the serial interface . To load up to pip 4048 ms
Hi and welcome to the forum.

There are so many things that can go wrong with the first firmware update; we'll need some more information.

Hopefully you have been following the firmware update instructions.
Hopefully you have a known-good USB to serial port adapter, preferably one with a PL2303 chip.

Can you see your USB to serial adapter in the Device Manager?

If so, what is its COM port number?

What is the version of the original firmware?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by grfarrow »

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for the effort you guys have gone to here, never would have picked one of these up without the guidance here and on the SA forum. I'm installing 18 x 365W Canadian Solar panels in 3S config, will the additional amperage be an issue using the built-in MPPT? (Losses aside) I'm looking at upgrading to a couple of Victron MPPTs down the line but want to have all the panels in place now. The current SCC is rated to 80A with 145V (Which I should just scrape under @ around 143V before cable loss).

I'm on a PF1.0 with 145V SCC and no 64V option and would love to use your patched firmware. My panels are arriving next week and was wondering if you have any idea on a patched firmware date? I'm currently running 74.30 and would be happy to help test where possible if you need a test subject.

Thanks,

Gareth
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

grfarrow wrote: Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 20:35 Hey guys,
Hi and welcome.
I'm installing 18 x 365W Canadian Solar panels in 3S config,
I wince every time I read about someone connecting 3S of 72-cell panels to a 145 V max Solar Charge Controller.
will the additional amperage be an issue using the built-in MPPT?
18 x 365 W nominal = 6 570 W nominal, which is certainly way too much for a 4000 W SCC. Use only 4 of your 6 strings (still quite high at 4 380 W nominal) till you switch to the Victron setup.
The current SCC is rated to 80A with 145V
The 80 A in on the battery side, not the PV side. 80 A × ~50 V ≅ 4000 W.
(Which I should just scrape under @ around 143V before cable loss).
Is that Voc or Vmp? Note that at 143 V the SCC will derate itself to 2/ 15 = 13% of rated power (about 533 W). That might barely be enough to get the panel current started, to head towards Vmp.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by rexx »

coulomb wrote: Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 06:54
rexx wrote: Thu, 16 Jan 2020, 19:08 Hi help needed , cant load up 72 70c firmware , cant find the serial interface . To load up to pip 4048 ms
Hi and welcome to the forum.

There are so many things that can go wrong with the first firmware update; we'll need some more information.

Hopefully you have been following the firmware update instructions.
Hopefully you have a known-good USB to serial port adapter, preferably one with a PL2303 chip.

Can you see your USB to serial adapter in the Device Manager?

If so, what is its COM port number?

What is the version of the original firmware?

Thanks Coulomb for your advice

pick up new USB to serial port adapter, loaded the firmware ok original firmware was 72 60
SCC not operating thought the firmware update may fix it but no luck ,
Charge input show en on the inverter kept falling over time till none at all
No fault code came up, open to any suggestions on the issue
open to advice
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by grfarrow »

coulomb wrote: Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 21:25
grfarrow wrote: Fri, 17 Jan 2020, 20:35 Hey guys,
Hi and welcome.
I'm installing 18 x 365W Canadian Solar panels in 3S config,
I wince every time I read about someone connecting 3S of 72-cell panels to a 145 V max Solar Charge Controller.
will the additional amperage be an issue using the built-in MPPT?
18 x 365 W nominal = 6 570 W nominal, which is certainly way too much for a 4000 W SCC. Use only 4 of your 6 strings (still quite high at 4 380 W nominal) till you switch to the Victron setup.
The current SCC is rated to 80A with 145V
The 80 A in on the battery side, not the PV side. 80 A × ~50 V ≅ 4000 W.
(Which I should just scrape under @ around 143V before cable loss).
Is that Voc or Vmp? Note that at 143 V the SCC will derate itself to 2/ 15 = 13% of rated power (about 533 W). That might barely be enough to get the panel current started, to head towards Vmp.
i hear you on the 3S, I can still do 2S but the distance from the panels to the inverter is around 12M so I was thinking cable loss would drop the voltage enough that it isn't too much of an issue, would you still go 2S?

4/6 strings - will do initially, makes sense.

Understood the 80A is on the battery side - I was thinking I'd get around 3800W out of the MPPT.

Voc rating is 47.2V.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

rexx wrote: Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 14:48Charge input show en on the inverter kept falling over time till none at all
No fault code came up, open to any suggestions on the issue
What is the PV voltage when this is happening?

Also what is the battery voltage doing? Perhaps the battery is full, or has gone high internal resistance?

[Moderator note: This discussion is continued in this post in the PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications topic.]
Last edited by weber on Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 12:40, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

grfarrow wrote: Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 17:42 i hear you on the 3S, I can still do 2S but the distance from the panels to the inverter is around 12M so I was thinking cable loss would drop the voltage enough that it isn't too much of an issue, would you still go 2S?
I do wire my 72-cell panels 2S, with 14 strings (8 plus 6, two PIP-4048MS inverters). I have perhaps 8 metres to the inverters from most panels, about 12 metres from the furthest set. I mostly pair two strings on the roof, and the remotest 6 panels have their three strings paralleled in a small box under the carport roof with 3 fuses and a breaker. So I have 6 pairs of cables to the inverters: 4 sets of 2P, one set of 6P, and one 1P.
Voc rating is 47.2V.
That's really high; 47.2 x 3 = 142 V @ 25°C; even at about 17°C this becomes over 145 V, the absolute maximum never exceed value, beyond which the Solar Charge Controller may be damaged. So you should switch to the Victron 150 V charge controllers soon, certainly before winter :o

I note that when the PV voltage is above 130 V, you get derated power output; at 140 V the maximum output is only 33%. But hopefully as the inverter draws current from the panels, the open circuit voltage will reduce towards the Vmp figure, which is hopefully well under 130 V, even at 0°C.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by lion6912 »

Hello,
my 8x6V crown lead acid batteries bought 2 years ago do not hold a charge. However I have never gone below 50V, to keep them.
2 years ago, I installed the 72.70 firmware, and reading all the forum, I realized that it was involved in the charge.
So do I have to install the 73.00e?
You also talk about 74.00, but I haven't found it anywhere.

Bravo for all the work.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

lion6912 wrote: Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 03:36 my 8x6V crown lead acid batteries bought 2 years ago do not hold a charge.
It's easy to lose lead acid batteries prematurely. Crown seem to make a proper deep cycle battery, so it seems you could do a lot better.

I could not quickly find the charge voltages for these batteries; what settings are you using?

If these are Trojan work-alikes, then they'll require periodic equalisation charging. Do you have any way of doing that? You might be able to get a bit more life out of this current set if you are able to equalise them soon.

If equalisation is not possible, perhaps using setting 32 (absorb time) to cause a few days of all-day absorbing would give them a crude equalisation. As with any equalisation, check the water levels frequently when doing this. You might have to use utility charging to achieve this. I don't know how many hours of extra absorbing at 58.4 V would be equivalent to an equalisation charge.
However I have never gone below 50V, to keep them.
That's good, but not sufficient for best life.
2 years ago, I installed the 72.70 firmware, and reading all the forum, I realized that it was involved in the charge.
That's factory firmware (unless you left off a letter), so it has the premature float bugs.
So do I have to install the 73.00e?
That might be able to save your next set.
You also talk about 74.00, but I haven't found it anywhere.
74.40e is not ready yet, but also it's for PF1.0 machines. You can't use 74.XX in your machine, or any PF0.8 machine, as yours presumably is. At least as far as I know. [ Edit: What I mean is, as far as I know PF1.0 hardware is different to PF0.8 hardware, so it's not possible/safe to attempt to force PF0.8 hardware to work at PF1.0 levels. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by lion6912 »

thanks for the full response.

my batteries: https://www.wholesalesolar.com/cms/specs-3614810581.pdf

The charge is indicated in the file

I charge at 58V and floating at 54V

equalization at 58.4V for 4 hours, once a month.

The option "32", I didn't have it, what should I put?
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

lion6912 wrote: Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 08:08 my batteries: https://www.wholesalesolar.com/cms/specs-3614810581.pdf
Huh. I've not seen that before; phase 3 is supposed to be constant current at 5 A. A PIP-4048MS, indeed any PIP, can't do that without help from an external computer.
I charge at 58V and floating at 54V
Those don't sound unreasonable, but differ from the manufacturer's recommendations.
equalization at 58.4V for 4 hours, once a month.
Are you doing this manually?
The option "32", I didn't have it, what should I put?
You say you are running 72.70. My reading is that this should have setting 32, just before setting 38 and after setting 31. This is on the LC Display.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by lion6912 »

Hello,

I do the equalization manually once a month.
I spent this night at 73.00th.
I confirm that with version 72.70c, I did not have option 32, nor 38.
Now I have the 2 options.
"abs 32 aut"
"NEC 38 D;S"
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by grfarrow »

coulomb wrote: Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 19:43
grfarrow wrote: Sat, 18 Jan 2020, 17:42 i hear you on the 3S, I can still do 2S but the distance from the panels to the inverter is around 12M so I was thinking cable loss would drop the voltage enough that it isn't too much of an issue, would you still go 2S?
I do wire my 72-cell panels 2S, with 14 strings (8 plus 6, two PIP-4048MS inverters). I have perhaps 8 metres to the inverters from most panels, about 12 metres from the furthest set. I mostly pair two strings on the roof, and the remotest 6 panels have their three strings paralleled in a small box under the carport roof with 3 fuses and a breaker. So I have 6 pairs of cables to the inverters: 4 sets of 2P, one set of 6P, and one 1P.
Voc rating is 47.2V.
That's really high; 47.2 x 3 = 142 V @ 25°C; even at about 17°C this becomes over 145 V, the absolute maximum never exceed value, beyond which the Solar Charge Controller may be damaged. So you should switch to the Victron 150 V charge controllers soon, certainly before winter :o

I note that when the PV voltage is above 130 V, you get derated power output; at 140 V the maximum output is only 33%. But hopefully as the inverter draws current from the panels, the open circuit voltage will reduce towards the Vmp figure, which is hopefully well under 130 V, even at 0°C.
Makes sense to me - I'll do 2S rather, split into groups of 4 panels each. If I connect the Victron to ICC do you think charging will work alright with the load split between the Victron and the Axpert?

Gareth
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk »

Depending on your electronics skills you could make a high power zener diode that will keep the voltage to less than 130v
by drawing current from the panels as it tries to exceed this.
What is the maximum power point of the panels?
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

grfarrow wrote: Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 14:46
If I connect the Victron to ICC
Err, are you talking about a Victron MPPT as before, or a Victron BMV now? I don't know if you can connect a Victron MPPT to ICC, but I'm certainly no Victron expert. Perhaps they "speak the same language".
do you think charging will work alright with the load split between the Victron and the Axpert?
By "load" do you mean "charging effort"? As opposed to inverter loads (fridges, lights, etc).

It's always a little tricky having independent charge controllers; both may want to do different things. I have had success with an external MPPT (not a Victron, a Blue Sky Energy), but had to make the voltage settings on the Blue Sky Energy a little lower than those of the PIP-4048MS, so that when the PIP was attempting to finish charging, it was the only charge source. Otherwise, you never know what proportion of the current the charge controllers are seeing, so the PIP may not finish the charge properly.

I thought you were going to switch over to the Victron MPPTs completely, and not use the PIP solar charge controller at all. I suspect that would be the easiest path.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by grfarrow »

coulomb wrote: Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 16:57
grfarrow wrote: Mon, 20 Jan 2020, 14:46
If I connect the Victron to ICC
Err, are you talking about a Victron MPPT as before, or a Victron BMV now? I don't know if you can connect a Victron MPPT to ICC, but I'm certainly no Victron expert. Perhaps they "speak the same language".
do you think charging will work alright with the load split between the Victron and the Axpert?
By "load" do you mean "charging effort"? As opposed to inverter loads (fridges, lights, etc).

It's always a little tricky having independent charge controllers; both may want to do different things. I have had success with an external MPPT (not a Victron, a Blue Sky Energy), but had to make the voltage settings on the Blue Sky Energy a little lower than those of the PIP-4048MS, so that when the PIP was attempting to finish charging, it was the only charge source. Otherwise, you never know what proportion of the current the charge controllers are seeing, so the PIP may not finish the charge properly.

I thought you were going to switch over to the Victron MPPTs completely, and not use the PIP solar charge controller at all. I suspect that would be the easiest path.
I will have the Victron BMV connected to ICC, but also I noticed you can specify a Victron MPPT on ICC - so I was thinking I can use both and have ICC control them. If not I'll just do 2 x Victron MPPTs.

Yeah, both charging the same batteries.

I'll try with a single Victron MPPT + the Axpert and report back.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by wolfandy »

I will have the Victron BMV connected to ICC, but also I noticed you can specify a Victron MPPT on ICC - so I was thinking I can use both and have ICC control them
Am also wanting to add a Victron MPPT somewhere along the way. From what I understand from Manie (ICC Software) is that ICC can read the values from the Victron MPPT and as of the latest version 2.996 also add those values to Total PV Watts on the dashboard. But ICC cannot control the Victron MPPT to synchronize charging. So it seems that if you want to use both the Axpert MPPT and a Victron MPPT at the same time, Coulomb's way is the only way to go
If not I'll just do 2 x Victron MPPTs
Just be mindful that synchronizing charging between 2 Victron MPPTs is also not immediately given. I think via their new VE.Smart Network this is possible for SmartSolar MPPTs - but am not 100% sure. Also trying to figure that out at the moment... Maybe read https://community.victronenergy.com/que ... le-mp.html
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk »

I run E-smart3 MPPT chargers with my inverters they work ok with the MPPT units in the inverters infact they work better
they take a lot less time to start charging after re calibrating. I have the 40 amp units there is a 60 amp version
but it would be more cost effective to get two 40 amp units , 80 amps charging and redundancy.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

Hi,

Today have finally made some time to update my PIP firmware from 52.30 to 73.00e on my 3 inverters. ;)

Everything works excellent for now.

Thank you guys.

Best regards

:D
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

That's what we like to hear. :) Thanks @daimyo.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

The website https://solarmonitor.enapter.com/ describes a DIN-rail mounted device, currently available for pre-order at €70, that connects to a PIP serial port, and to Wi-Fi, and gives a dashboard over the net, as an alternative to Watchpower. No endorsement is implied.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by mojo »

Hi,
Have two inverters, older Axpert SOL-I-AX-5P64 with firmware 72.70 and recently acquired a second unit but with firmware 72.30.
Would like to run them in parallel and thus the firmware needs to be alike.
But after reading the advice/recommendations on firmware updates it seems impossible to get both the inverters onto the same version firmware.

Can one downgrade a version? Can one upgrade to a higher main version say 72.XX to say 74.XX?
Supplier provided 3 firmware updates 72.61 / 74.40 and a third folder called latest version.

Some guidance will be highly appreciated.

thanks
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

@mojo Please post photos of the labels on the sides of the two inverters. Block out the rightmost 6 digits of the serial numbers if you wish.

What is the maximum value of setting 26 (when setting 5 is USE) on each inverter? If one is 58.4 and the other is 64.0, then you will not be able to parallel them.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

mojo wrote: Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 06:06 Hi,
Welcome to the forum.
Have two inverters, older Axpert SOL-I-AX-5P64 with firmware 72.70 and recently acquired a second unit but with firmware 72.30.
The SOL-I-AX-5P64 would have to be the newer one. Are you sure the firmware on this newer one is 72.30, not 74.30? [ Edit: arrgh! No, it won't be 74.30, sorry. ]
Would like to run them in parallel and thus the firmware needs to be alike.
The firmware doesn't have to be identical, for example 72.70 will work with 74.10, per the parallel compatibility post.
But after reading the advice/recommendations on firmware updates it seems impossible to get both the inverters onto the same version firmware.
I don't believe it's possible to run identical firmware in a 64 V model and a 58.4 V model. It gets tricky with the later PF1.0 models, since some are reported as not working with 72.70.
Can one downgrade a version?
Certainly. Of course, you might miss out on some features or bug fixes. Though you might also avoid new bugs.
Can one upgrade to a higher main version say 72.XX to say 74.XX?
A higher major version number (say 74 in your example) is not necessarily later or better than one with a lower major version number (72 in your example). But yes, it's possible, e.g. you can update your 72.70 machine to 73.00e (not factory 73.00 because of the error 90 problem). In this case, you don't want to do that, since 72.70 is the best one for paralleling with a PF1.0 machine.
Supplier provided 3 firmware updates 72.61 / 74.40 and a third folder called latest version.
The first two of these are no good to you; they are older than 72.70, and won't parallel with PF1.0 models, and should probably not be run in a PF1.0 machine.

[ Edit: corrected some serious technical errors, sigh. Mainly, 74.XX are for PF1.0 machines, but with the 58.4 V max battery voltage. Paralleling 64 V machines with 58.4 V machines is a totally different situation, and I'm not sure it can practicably be done. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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