PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

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Walde
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Thu, 20 Jun 2019, 21:26

IGBT Type: GW80H65DFB
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 07:17

I have had the IGBT Q27, Q28, Q29, Q30 and the Q32 changed (have no Q31). After a try to start with battery pack again came Error 09 at the second start attempt. In another subsequent test, the IGBT were partially defective again.

What else can I check or someone has a tip why the new IGBT are through again.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by weber » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 08:10

It may be that some of the gate driver components for those IGBTs are damaged, causing some IGBTs to be permanently or easily turned on, resulting in shoot-thru. See pages 18 and 19 of the service manual
uploads/4111/Copy_of_PIP-HS_MS_4-5KVA_n ... 01506A.pdf
and see Coulomb's schematic
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php ... 332#p65151

These and other helpful documents are linked from the index post here:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=4332&p=53691#p53691
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 08:13

Walde wrote:
Thu, 04 Jul 2019, 07:17
In another subsequent test, the IGBT were partially defective again.
Similarly to what Weber has just posted: Have you checked the IGBT gate drivers? Often when an IGBT or MOSFET fails, the gate shorts to other terminals, and can blow up resistors and transistors in the gate driver circuit.

There is a small chance that something else is dragging down the bus voltage, and the "partially defective" IGBTs are actually OK. Or the bus soft start circuit may have faulty components. These links are from the index in the first post of the PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS topic.

[ Edit: "this topic" -> "PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS" with link]
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5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Cactus » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 16:06

Hi all,

I was hoping someone would be able to provide me with the value of capacitors C152 - C162 in a PIP-4048MS (C152 in Coulombs partial schematic on page 71 of this thread dated Thu, 13 Jul 2017, 21:17) as I managed to damage one of mine while cleaning the pcb during repairs and my old eyes don't help me to see any markings on any of them.

Many thanks for any assistance.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 16:54

Cactus wrote:
Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 16:06
Hi all,

I was hoping someone would be able to provide me with the value of capacitors C152 - C162 in a PIP-4048MS (C152 in Coulombs partial schematic on page 71 of this thread dated Thu, 13 Jul 2017, 21:17) as I managed to damage one of mine while cleaning the pcb during repairs and my old eyes don't help me to see any markings on any of them.

Many thanks for any assistance.
I don't think your eyes are the problem. There is no marking. They are 2.7 nF (2n7). I had to cut a track to measure that.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Cactus » Fri, 30 Aug 2019, 17:17

Many many thanks for that information Weber, much appreciated.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by arnolde73 » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 18:12

Hi, I've been running my pip4048 (actually labelled effekta ax-m 5000-48) without grid (just a generator for long sunless periods) for about 3 yesrs now, and today suddenly without any load>1000w and under cloudy sky, the power failed, and when I came to check, the relay was clicking and whole display+leds flashing about 2-3 times per second. This continued after turning off the bottom switch, and only stopped when i disconnected the battery. If i reconnect the battery it starts clicking+flashing again.

Does anyone have an idea what might have gone wrong?

Kind regards,
Ethan

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 21:47

arnolde73 wrote:
Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 18:12
Does anyone have an idea what might have gone wrong?
It sounds like the main power supply is failing after a fraction of a second. This power supply powers the processor, LC Display and its backlight, and all the control electronics. It could be a fault in the power supply, or something might be loading the power supply excessively. Since from your description the pattern seems to be regular, I'd guess the second case: power is good for several hundred milliseconds until the firmware turns on hardware component X, component X is faulty and causes the main power supply voltage to collapse, the processor resets, component X is turned off by the power going off, that allows the power supply voltage to come up again and the cycle repeats.

It could also be the "bootstrapping" of the power supply not working. When you turn on the inverter switch, for example, there is a pulse of power through the power supply, and all going well, it should be able to power the control chip (U10 in this schematic trace of the main power supply) from itself via D49. But if something is wrong with D49, or TX9/D57/R265/C118 which generate the +15 V, or something is loading the 15 V rail all the time, then the power supply won't "latch on" as soon as C7 charges up. That lets Q9 and Q10 stop conducting, the control chip is starved of power, and the power supply stops.

I'd say it's impossible to say more without testing the inverter-charger in a lab. If you're handy with electronics and have some time for it, you could read the "Repair" and the "Partial schematic traces" sections of the index (first post of this topic). Otherwise, it will have to be sent in for repair or replaced. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
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5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by arnolde73 » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 23:38

@coulomb
Thank you very much for your kind estimate.
By the way, here is a short video of the behaviour: https://youtu.be/kAvJpDz4JRw
I already guessed it would be no quick fix and ordered a new unit, when i have time i'll do some more diagnosis.
Regards, Ethan

P.S. I dont turn on the inverter switch, i left it off ever since it failed. I assume turning it on wont change anything...

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Sun, 08 Sep 2019, 07:20

arnolde73 wrote:
Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 23:38
I already guessed it would be no quick fix and ordered a new unit...
Something that I should have thought of yesterday, but only occurred to me as I watched your video, is that perhaps the battery (or one cell of the battery) has collapsed. Can you check the battery voltage, first with no load, then when you connect it to the inverter? You might need to use the "min and max" feature of your multimeter, if it has one, or use the "analogue" bar-graph feature, if it has one, to see the rapid dips in voltage that, if present, would cause this behaviour.

It might be easier to put some sort of load on your battery, to see if the sag in voltage is too high. Something like a 230 V incandescent light bulb, or a small resistive appliance like a toaster or bar heater might work, if you can find a way to temporarily put it across the battery. For the battery to collapse fast enough for your symptoms to occur, even a one amp load would show a dramatic voltage sag, I think. Remember that at 50 V, the battery will draw only some 5% of the power it will at 230 V. However, heating and incandescent loads draw several times more power than normal when cold.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by arnolde73 » Sun, 08 Sep 2019, 22:12

I doubt very much its the battery, i have 2 pylontechs in parallel and i assume their internal monitoring would signal such a failure, but I'll test just to make sure.

Edit 2 days later:
I hooked up a new inverter (same type) as drop-in replacement and it works fine, so it wasnt the battery. Also I found out there had been an overload after all, must have had a sudden short somewhere (which still persists) and does not blow the 16a circuit breaker. So that breaker stays off until i find the short.
Last edited by arnolde73 on Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Cactus » Sun, 15 Sep 2019, 00:21

Hi Everyone,

I'm not sure if this information has already been posted elsewhere but I just want to add some information I have had to learn the hard way for anyone wanting to repair one of these units (PIP-4048MS or PIP-5048MS and all their various other names and models).
I've successfully blown my units DC\DC IGBT's (Q27,Q28,Q29,Q30) as well as the Buck IGBT (Q32, mine has only the one) and the Mosfets multiple times even following the service manual to the T and making sure all components it recommends be checked and replaced are perfect.
What I have found needs checking and (probably) replacement are the following resistors (all in the mosfet driver circuit near the NPN/PNP SMD drivers) R49,R51,R61,R54,R20,R47,R1,R4 all 10 ohm 0.25w 1206 SMD (these resistors tend to fail open circuit even if the driver transistors survive the destruction of the mosfets). Also check resistors R44,R71,R50,R57 (marked R37 in Coulomb's partial trace on page 71) these are 200 ohm 0.25w 1206 SMD although I've substituted 220 ohm and it seems quite happy.
I hope this info is helpful to someone and can save them some frustration and money.

Regards Luke.

[ Edited Coulomb: added link to relevant partial schematic trace. ]

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Wed, 18 Sep 2019, 00:23

Hi Luke,

which error did you have / error code before.
Which parts did you change and was an inverter 24v or 48v.
Did you also take photos or videos about your repair work?

Would be happy if you could tell more.
Have yourself still a 5000VA / 48V with error 09 is defective in the DC-DC part
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=6007

-------------------

"Also check resistors R44,R71,R50,R57 (marked R37 in Coulomb's partial trace on page 71) these are 200 ohm 0.25w 1206 SMD although"
I think you mean R44,R17,R50 and R57 ???

Greetings Dirk

:!: IMPORTANT - Ask for ALL :!:
Question to all have apparently the resistor R250 defective can give me one of the value of the resistor R250 in ohms. (Board is 48V)

Thank you !!! :roll:

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by weber » Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 13:24

Walde wrote:
Wed, 18 Sep 2019, 00:23
Question to all have apparently the resistor R250 defective can give me one of the value of the resistor R250 in ohms. (Board is 48V)
R250 is 30 kilohms.
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Cactus » Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 00:22

Hi Dirk,

My inverter had the "bus soft start error", error code 09.
It is a 48v model (with parallel board installed)
It is currently working perfectly after changing the four recommended capacitors (C8,C9,C12,C13), all 16 mosfets, one of the 2SA1020 (Q57 I think) driver transistors, the 4 IGBT's on the DC-DC side (Q26-Q30) and IGBT Q32 as well as diode D13.
I have loaded it to about 3Kw and all seems right with the unit so far.

Regards Luke.

Forgot to mention I obviously changed the resistors I mentioned too.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 06:59

Cactus wrote:
Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 00:22
one of the 2SA1020 (Q57 I think) driver transistors,

Regards Luke.
2SA1020 how did you test it and where on the board are the Q14, Q15, Q16, Q41 in the IGBT and the Mosfet Q46, Q47, Q48, Q49

Can you look at my pictures if you can see which of the 2SA1020 you have swapped.
Greetings Dirk
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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by coulomb » Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 07:52

Walde wrote:
Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 06:59
Can you look at my pictures if you can see which of the 2SA1020 you have swapped.
I would think that when one of a set of 4 gate driver transistors blows up, it's quite random as to which one will blow (depends on the phase of the output at the time, for instance). So I don't think you'll profit from knowing which one it was for someone else's specific case. You just have to test each one; this can usually be done in-circuit, with reference to the schematic traces.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 16:37

coulomb wrote:
Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 07:52
Walde wrote:
Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 06:59
Can you look at my pictures if you can see which of the 2SA1020 you have swapped.
I would think that when one of a set of 4 gate driver transistors blows up, it's quite random as to which one will blow (depends on the phase of the output at the time, for instance). So I don't think you'll profit from knowing which one it was for someone else's specific case. You just have to test each one; this can usually be done in-circuit, with reference to the schematic traces.
which are the gate drivers. On the board are more than just a PNP. Which of the 2SA1020 come into question.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Revlac » Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 17:28

Hi Luke, Nice work getting it running again. :)

I Have repaired an 09 fault and many of those associated parts, very time consuming finding the faulty parts, Also check DC/DC driver Diodes, ZD24 ZD25 ZD29 ZD26 ZD31 ZD28 ZD30 ZD28, found 2 of them open circuit.
17 months since I repaired it, give it some hard work in the shed running power tools, and its still running well. :D

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Walde » Sun, 22 Sep 2019, 05:10

Revlac wrote:
Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 17:28
Hi Luke, Nice work getting it running again. :)

I Have repaired an 09 fault and many of those associated parts, very time consuming finding the faulty parts, Also check DC/DC driver Diodes, ZD24 ZD25 ZD29 ZD26 ZD31 ZD28 ZD30 ZD28, found 2 of them open circuit.
17 months since I repaired it, give it some hard work in the shed running power tools, and its still running well. :D
Hi Revlac

Which parts were broken with you and what a board Do you have 24 / 48v or which inverter type do you have.
If you still have photos of the repraratur and also tips and information, you can post the likes under http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=6007

Greetings Dirk :mrgreen:

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Revlac » Sun, 22 Sep 2019, 10:48

Hi Dirk

It was a PIP-4048
Some details on page. 96

Battery side Power Mosfet's 8 of them busted, the other 8 were ok and not replaced.
R54 R57 burnt open.
D69 open.

Bus Side components IGBT's 2 of them shorted, but no visual sine of damage
and 2 zener diodes open circuit, on the gate drive, I don't remember witch ones.

The gate drive transistors are on the underside of the board.
I just noticed D69 (next to Q57) was not in the manual.

I also checked the gate drive circuit that I repaired against the gate drive circuit that was still ok, just to see if the values were the same. almost.

A question for someone smarter than me.
Is it the, DC/DC IGBT's that fail first then that take's out the DC/DC MOSFETs? (most likely)
or is it the other way round.
I notice there have been a few different IGBT's used in the newer inverters.

Cheers Aaron

This should probably be in a repair section.
Edit: Sorry I only just looked at the link, can't find my photos ATM. :)

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Cactus » Mon, 23 Sep 2019, 01:34

Hi Dirk,

The 2sa1020 driver transistor I replaced was Q57, it is one of the surface mount ones under the pcb near the mosfets. It can be identified in the first picture on page 16 of the service manual along with details for testing both NPN and PNP drivers. My approach is to measure and compare the parallel branch circuits while the mosfets are not installed (after removing blown units but before installing new replacements) and then it is usually obvious by the obtained readings if one branch has an issue, I hope this statement is correctly worded and understandable.
As Coulomb stated though there is no guarantee the same transistor would fail on multiple units and your best (only?) approach is to test and replace as indicated by your findings.

Regards, Luke.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by Cactus » Mon, 23 Sep 2019, 01:52

Hi Aaron,

Not claiming to be smart or anything but the way I understand these failures (blown mosfets, IGBT's and associated components) is that a voltage rise above normal operating values due to various reasons including a sudden increase in PV charge voltage or a sudden unloading of the inverter (large load switching off suddenly) coupled with bad/nominally sized capacitors causes the mosfets to fail (catastrophically) and they in turn take out the driver circuit components and IGBT's as the mosfets often fail closed circuit (even if only momentarily), this is why it is so important to replace the capacitors (as recommended by Coulomb and Weber, the true geniuses around here) as well as upgrading the mosfets to a higher voltage rated equivalent such as the SUP70040E or CSD19535KCS (again recommended by Coulomb and Weber) both being rated at 100V instead of the 75V originals so this failure does not occur again even if the same circumstances do.
I'm only speaking about the 48v models here as I have no experience of the 24v or 12v models.

Regards Luke.

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Re: PIP inverter repairs and hardware modifications

Post by paulvk » Mon, 23 Sep 2019, 09:19

I have the original parallel PIP4048s (big heatsink on top) with the original capacitors but my mosfets on the DC side are 80v (original with units) its now nearly 5 years I run my washing machine , two sometimes 3 split ACs , refrigerator and two 700 watt water pumps so plenty of inductive loads so I think other factors are causing the problem.
I think heating of components , and too long , too thin cables to batteries , I have very low loss in battery cables in one set up I" have 44 x 100Ah 12v VRLA batteries all with 25mm cables that run to a buss bar under the inverters for my common and to a set of circuit breakers less than a meter away with 35mm cable to each inverter in my other installation I have a 225Ah battery bank of 8 trojan T105 6v batteries with les than a meter of 35mm welding cable to each inverter . The other change is the addition of extra cooling fans on the top MPPT heatsink I have a 100mm 12v fan running from 9v keeping it cool and in the one with the 6v batteries I have temperature controlled fans on the sides drawing air out controlled by a thermister in the AC inverter heatsink that comes on at 44 deg C and turns off at 36 deg C , the heatsinks have onl ever been to 50C in very hot ambient temps of 40C before the added fans they were regularly at 50C So I think its a temperature problem mainly.

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