PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 13:08

Hi,
paulvk wrote:
Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 17:37
I have my ones two homes , four inverters mounted on ply wood I do not see a big risk of fire
They could be mounted with fiber cement board behind them which has a good fire rating
If mounted on a metal surface earthing and insulation need to be considered
Never even thought of fibro! Should have some in the garage. There'll be an air gap between inverter and fibro, so that should be OK.

Thanks,

dRdoS7.

PS. 2 homes & 4 inverters? Capitalist or Mormon, or both? :lol:

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by paulvk » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 20:30

Actually 6 inverters 2 spares got them early at a good price.
Big battery bank second hand
2nd home battery bank was new but it replaced a previous 48v ups before I thought about getting solar so not ideal.
If I just wanted to reduce power bills I could have just got grid solar installed but there is no fun in that :D
Fibro yep that will not burn and that stuff sold in Australia as hardi plank would resist an acetylene torch!

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 » Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 04:46

paulvk wrote:
Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 20:30
If I just wanted to reduce power bills I could have just got grid solar installed but there is no fun in that :D
Unless you have PFiT until 2024!

And a SPS!

I started with a UPS as well.

dRdoS7.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by paulvk » Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 18:15

I think you may have misunderstood it was not a 240V ups I had, for over 15 years a 48v DC system
and I still have it running 48v to 12v for various gear and some that runs straight off 48v.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 » Wed, 24 Oct 2018, 04:35

Hi,
paulvk wrote:
Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 18:15
I think you may have misunderstood it was not a 240V ups I had, for over 15 years a 48v DC system
and I still have it running 48v to 12v for various gear and some that runs straight off 48v.
Uninterruptible Power Supply?

I don't see how there's a misunderstanding. Surely, if it is there to supply power when the main supply of electricity fails, it's a UPS, otherwise it's just a power supply.

My UPS was 48v, output 240V AC. Got tired of power failures, so put it in for "vital" appliances, it gave many hours of backup. :D

dRdoS7.
Last edited by dRdoS7 on Tue, 30 Oct 2018, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by aim120 » Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 23:09

Is there a patched firmware version for the Axpert VMII 5kva (PF1.0, PV 120v-450V) aka PIP5048GE

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by weber » Thu, 22 Nov 2018, 04:43

aim120 wrote:
Wed, 21 Nov 2018, 23:09
Is there a patched firmware version for the Axpert VMII 5kva (PF1.0, PV 120v-450V) aka PIP5048GE
No. Sorry. We need a manufacturer's firmware update file for it before we can do that, and no one has sent us one. All available patched firmware is listed in the Firmware section of the index page.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by serpentus » Wed, 12 Dec 2018, 05:12

[ Note from Coulomb: I accidentally edited this post when I meant to reply to it. This is a hazard of being a moderator. I've attempted to undo that, but I have missed some parts of the original post. @serpentus, I'm sorry if I have damaged your first post. I've reposted my accidental-edit as a proper reply here (next page). Unfortunately it now appears after your response to it. ]


I saw the Axpert MKS II 5K (the one with 450VDC MPPT) ( http://www.voltronicpower.com/oCart2/in ... uct_id=132 ). I wanted to ask if you guys know if this inverter has the premature floating bug issue. The inverter is the latest model ( that is what the dealer told me), just arrived in Chile. ...

Also I read in another forum that the Axpert invertors should not be used over the 40% of the rated output. Is this true? And why?

I want to know this before buying it. Or else I'll look for another brand.

EDIT: Same questions for the Axpert MKS 4K-48.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by serpentus » Wed, 12 Dec 2018, 12:33

Well... Now I'm in trouble, can't find a decent inverter. Xantrex, but it is expensive, out of my budget. Victron, do not like the one they are selling here, and it is to expensive (~USD 2.118).....

Will keep looking for another one. But it seems I'll have to import one myself.

Thank you very much for your answers and time.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 09:53

[ Note: Serpentus' post above, is a response to the following, which originally appeared when I accidentally edited his earlier post. My apologies for these two posts now being in reverse chronological order. ]
serpentus wrote:I saw the Axpert MKS II 5K (the one with 450VDC MPPT) ( http://www.voltronicpower.com/oCart2/in ... uct_id=132 ). I wanted to ask if you guys know if this inverter has the premature floating bug issue. The inverter is the latest model ( that is what the dealer told me), just arrived...
Sadly, almost certainly it does have the premature float bugs. Worse, there isn't a patched version of this firmware to correct it.

Voltronic Power: it's so simple! You've swapped float and absorb/CV voltages in your source code somewhere, and have been perpetuating that error in every inverter-charger firmware since. And it's so simple to demonstrate the problem, so you can't pretend it doesn't exist!

Also I read in another forum that the Axpert invertors should not be used over the 40% of the rated output. Is this true? And why?
That's nonsense. However, these are low-end inverters, and they do cut corners on the specifications for some of the components. That's why Weber and I always replace the MOSFETs and capacitors in all our inverters. That gives them more voltage "headroom" and the capacitors (which protect the MOSFETs) a lot more life. Of course, most people don't have the technical capacity to do this, so they just take the chance, and simply replace the inverter when it fails. As long as it's not a mission critical application, this probably makes economic sense.
I want to know this before buying it. Or else I'll look for another brand.
Brands like Victron and SMA have far better components inside. But the last time I looked at this (admittedly that's many years ago now), the next best inverter was many times the price of these Voltronic Power units. So for us, patching the firmware and upgrading some components was worth the extra effort. Maybe that's no longer the case.
EDIT: Same questions for the Axpert MKS 4K-48.
The same comments apply to all their inverter-chargers, although their Infini series (hybrids) may be different. I don't have enough experience to comment there.

[ Edit: this was originally posted a few posts ago, when I erroneously edited instead of quoted the original post. }
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by jacobbloy » Tue, 18 Dec 2018, 20:47

is there any one who is working on firmware for the newer models of the pip inverters. I purchased the pip-5048GK. there is a specific battery that I would like to use and the voltages are to low to be used with my inverter.

30v-42v discharge and 42v charge.
the pip lowest voltage for discharge is 44v and 42v under voltage cutoff.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by MrTechSantiago » Tue, 18 Dec 2018, 22:42

Team,
I own a PIP5048GK in Puerto Rico creating a split phase 240/120V using a toroidal 5KVA autotransformer. I Previously had PIP4048GE PF1.0 version and PIP5048MG PF1.0

Sorry if Iam posting in the wrong forum but I want to know if someone are working in a custom firmware for PIP5048GK. Also Iam software developer and Iam working in a custom software(see attachment image) to communicate with inverter via modbus. I have almost done all software interface, I have usb to modbus communication cable but I dont know too much how to start a communication with inverter and its communication protocol.

If someone are in a project like this and can help me, I will appreciate that. Thanks a lot
unnamed.png
Custom Software interface
unnamed.png (66.75 KiB) Viewed 2290 times

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 07:03

jacobbloy wrote:
Tue, 18 Dec 2018, 20:47
is there any one who is working on firmware for the newer models of the pip inverters.
No. It seems that Weber and I are the only two working on firmware patches for any Voltronic Power inverters, and we don't have access to any firmwares for these models. We also don't have any interest in them, and would prefer not to encourage others to use them.
I purchased the pip-5048GK. there is a specific battery that I would like to use and the voltages are to low to be used with my inverter.
30v-42v discharge and 42v charge.
the pip lowest voltage for discharge is 44v and 42v under voltage cutoff.
Sorry, but that battery isn't suitable for that inverter, or likely any nominal 48 V inverter. To get 5000 W from 30 VDC, ignoring sagging and losses, you'd need 167 A, and the front end simply isn't designed to carry that sort of current. So even if you could butcher the firmware to accept such a low battery voltage, it would very likely blow up the inverter.

[ Edit: Reworded from "would only fix charge bugs" to "prefer not to encourage others". ]
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 07:09

MrTechSantiago wrote:
Tue, 18 Dec 2018, 22:42
Sorry if Iam posting in the wrong forum ...
I've moved the post to a new topic.
but I want to know if someone are working in a custom firmware for PIP5048GK.
If there are, hopefully they'll find this topic and let you know. But I don't think it's likely. The art of working with executable / binary files, even with assembler code, seems to be dying.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by dRdoS7 » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 13:27

Hi,

I noticed yesterday, and again today, that my 5048MG was pushing the battery > 64V. It's not problem for me, as I have NiFe batteries, and the higher the better! Absorb is set to 64V. EQ is disabled.

Today it did it for about 1/2 hr, yesterday only a few minutes.

I have a 2nd SCC (a Classic 200), but the output of that was at 0 when I checked. The Classic's Absorb setting is 64.2V.

It's the first time (OK, second) I have seen this since I've had it connected (05Nov2018).

I can't add attchments, so uploaded to an image site instead.

Yesterday:

Image

It actually was higher (65V) yesterday, but I wasn't fast enough to get a screenshot.

Today:

Image

Should add that the Classic was in Absorb both times, before and after the excursion.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 19:42

dRdoS7 wrote:
Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 13:27
I noticed yesterday, and again today, that my 5048MG was pushing the battery > 64V.
PIPs are not great at battery voltage regulation; under- and overshoots are common. I suspect that they don't do much about the classic control problem of integral windup.
Today it did it for about 1/2 hr, yesterday only a few minutes.
I think you need to get that voltage down; I have no idea what the voltage margin is on the 64 V models. As the capacitors protecting the MOSFETs age, that margin will presumably come down.
I have a 2nd SCC (a Classic 200), but the output of that was at 0 when I checked. The Classic's Absorb setting is 64.2V.
I have a similar setup, but with my PIP-4048. It's not an ideal setup, but I'm a cheap old man. I found through experience that I really had to have the second SCC get right out of the way while the PIP finished the absorb cycle on its own. So I set the second SCC's absorb voltage to be a few tenths of a volt lower than the PIP's absorb voltage setting. Similarly, I set the second SCC's float voltage setting a little lower than the PIP's float voltage setting. So they worth together for most of the bulk stage, the PIP does the end of the bulk stage and all of absorb (I have LiFePO₄ so that's only about 15 minutes), and most of the time in float, the PIP does all the work. When there is a larger load during float, the battery voltage drifts lower, and the second SCC starts to take some of the load. I don't have equalise turned on. It works well enough for me. I don't know if you'll be able to find a compromise like that for your battery situation.
It's the first time (OK, second) I have seen this since I've had it connected (05Nov2018).
You need to find out if it was really happening and you didn't notice it. Do you have logging?
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by Carricondo » Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 20:04

Before reading this forum line, I installed Firmware 73b on my PIP 5048 MG 450v inverter.
Now when it turns on, error 02 appears for a high temperature for a few seconds and switches off.
Is it possible to reinstall the previous firmware without going through technical support? :oops:

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 20:27

Carricondo wrote:
Sun, 23 Dec 2018, 20:04
Now when it turns on, error 02 appears for a high temperature for a few seconds and switches off.
I'm sorry to hear that. It's most unfortunate that while there is some protection against incorrect firmware updates, this is not one of them.
Is it possible to reinstall the previous firmware without going through technical support? :oops:
Alas, no. As far as I'm aware, there is no firmware updates for these machines at all. You'll have to go through your supplier.
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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by CrAzY_DrIveR » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:48

hi guys, how is the harmonic distortion on those units? i saw a video on YT and it was really bad :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHcdeIk_vq8

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by exup » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 01:00

Hello everybody ¡¡¡ My name is Daniel and I live in Spain, sorry if my english is not perfect , i will try my best do.

I own a PIP5048GK, and already working with it for a few months, (August 2018).

I had some issues with it that I would like to share here with you , just in case someone else is also.
I also have some questions for the Pros.

first off all i use the unit without batteries, only solar panales and AC, I opted for this unit because Batteries are so expensive still, but maybe in the future it will be an option.
Also my solar panels are canadian solar i will leave here the specs in case we need them

Electrical Data | Noct* for CS6U 330P
Nominal Max. Power (Pmax) 239 W
Opt. Operating Voltage (Vmp) 33.9 V
Opt. Operating Current (Imp) 7.05 A
Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) 41.9 V
Short Circuit Current (Isc) 7.66 A

Canadian solar STC CS6U 330P
Nominal Max. Power (Pmax) 330 W
Opt. Operating Voltage (Vmp) 37.2 V
Opt. Operating Current (Imp) 8.88 A
Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) 45.6 V
Short Circuit Current (Isc) 9.45 A

When i bought it, all was working good, for a week or so, and suddenly one day the inverted turned off, and all electricity went off too in the house, i went to the unit and it was showing error 02 in the screen, which according to the manual is overheat. ummm strange , i touched the unit and it was not hot. turned it off manually from AC, restarted the inverted and it all worked fine again.

next day ..... again same thing happened, turned it on again and went to the computer to check watchpower software, and ..... surprise...... constant error 02 in the event error log.

I contacted MPP solar, and they sent me, after a few weeks of discussions and strange tests, new temperature sensors, but after changing them all was still the same.

I kept complaining to mpp solar and now they sent me a new motherboard, but i did not change it still, because after all this time, 6 months of back and forth emails, i had time to watch and test my faulty unit, and i found why it was really turning off. and the answer is.... i did not have enough Volts from my solar panels.

I started with 5 panels, the unit always went off early in the morning, between 9/10 AM, i realized that at that time the Voltage was too close to those 120V that the unit needs to work , and with the error 02 always behind in the shows, the unit was turning off and showing only then the error 02.

Now, i just added a new panel , so i have 6 and is been working perfect for 2 weeks now, now the voltage never gets below 140V, still error 02 is there in the software do, but unit works just fine. Honestly i don't know if the unit will do the same if i had 5 panels and no error 02 problem, i really think unit will probable work fine with 5 panels if it didn't have the error 02, maybe one day i will test it after i change the MB, if the error 02 disappears after i change it.

Anyway thats been my experience with it, just in case someone has only 5 panels with similars specs as mine and the inverter suddenly stops, well just try with 6.

Now some questions i have.

i was planing to set my system with 12 panels of those above, but i have 2 roofs with almost same orientation , but one is lower and because of that it gets the sun half an hour later in the morning and almost 1 our extra in the evening.

My original idea it was to set 6 units in one roof and 6 in the other and work with 2 strings, but after contacting mppsolar they told me that i can't , because the max AMP of this inverter is 18A, and unfortunately those solar panels get peaks of 9,5A. i have spend a few hours checking the amps in the App and almost never goes that hight, but it happens. so i'm afraid to do that setting, and if i do 1 string i will not enjoy all my solar time, and also i can only set 10 panels.

So questions are.

can i set more than 18A , can that destroy my inverter, or the unit will deal with it, and stop/suspend if it happens ?
If the answer is not, can i add something to limit the Amps to those 18, so the inverter never gets more than 18A from the panels?

Someone commented in an earlier post of setting 3 strings with total of 24 panels, but he did not share the total Amps or configuration.

well thanks a lot in advance, bTW i tried to contact voltronic with this topic also, as they are the manufactures and no answer what so ever from those guys. how strange is that... :):):)

Daniel

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 07:12

CrAzY_DrIveR wrote:
Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:48
hi guys, how is the harmonic distortion on those units?
I believe it's quite good. Certainly a lot better than typical mains.
i saw a video on YT and it was really bad :shock:
The RMS output was 1.8 V, and the current drawn on the clamp meter was very choppy. I think he was operating in power save mode; if so that's not a valid test.

In my opinion, harmonics in the output are not a reason to avoid them.
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5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
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160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by CrAzY_DrIveR » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 07:15

So 80A only for the charger? Solar imput 18A sounds so small :shock:

in the manual recomended pv Breaker 60A

and

When selecting proper PV modules, please be sure to consider below parameters:
1. Open circuit Voltage (Voc) of PV modules not exceeds max. PV array open circuit voltage of inverter.
2. Open circuit Voltage (Voc) of PV modules should be higher than min. battery voltage.

nothing about 18A

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 07:41

exup wrote:
Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 01:00
... i had time to watch and test my faulty unit, and i found why it was really turning off. and the answer is.... i did not have enough Volts from my solar panels.
Welcome, Daniel, and thanks for that information. It makes a little sense; at the minimum MPPT voltage, the Solar Charger Controller (SCC) has to boost the voltage by the highest factor, perhaps 3.5, where the efficiency is at the minimum, so the generated heat will be the highest.
My original idea it was to set 6 units in one roof and 6 in the other and work with 2 strings, but after contacting mppsolar they told me that i can't , because the max AMP of this inverter is 18A, and unfortunately those solar panels get peaks of 9,5A.
Twelve panels is 330 x 12 = 3,960 W, which is lower than the rated SCC output. The lower voltage SCCs are routinely "overclocked" (more panel power is provided than the SCC can handle) by up to about 30%, so 5200 W nominal for an SCC rated at 80 A (~4000 W) output. These would nearly always have more available panel current than the SCC can handle. But just because the panels are capable of over 18 A doesn't mean the SCC will draw more than 18 A; it draws what it needs and can handle. I think you'll be fine with two strings of 6 panels.

[ Edit: Added verbage about how much PIP SCCs are typically overclocked by. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by coulomb » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 07:48

CrAzY_DrIveR wrote:
Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 07:15
So 80A only for the charger? Solar imput 18A sounds so small :shock:
18 A at 225 V at the PV input is 4,050 W, about the same as 50 V and 80 A at the battery. MPPTs are like DC transformers.
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160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Joined: Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 00:10
Real Name: Daniel

Re: PIP-5048GE, PIP-5048GK and PIP-5048MG inverters (with unsafe SCC)

Post by exup » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 19:14

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 07:41

Twelve panels is 330 x 12 = 3,960 W, which is lower than the rated SCC output. The lower voltage SCCs are routinely "overclocked" (more panel power is provided than the SCC can handle) by up to about 30%, so 5200 W nominal for an SCC rated at 80 A (~4000 W) output. These would nearly always have more available panel current than the SCC can handle. But just because the panels are capable of over 18 A doesn't mean the SCC will draw more than 18 A; it draws what it needs and can handle. I think you'll be fine with two strings of 6 panels.

[ Edit: Added verbage about how much PIP SCCs are typically overclocked by. ]
Thanks a lot coulomb, but.....

I can see and understand that i will not get to the max W that the SCC can handle, that was the only value that it was ok, either 1 string or 2

but when i asked MPP solar technician , he told me no way because i will get to over 18A in some conditions. As i said, most of the time is below that, but i saw it at 9,6 two times, specially after a cloud went away. and also they told me no more than 10 in one string, as i will be over 500V DC.

If i understand properly, you say that Inverters will stop taking Amps form solar panels if it exceeds 18A, so he will work only up to 18A if it gets to , and if for some reason it goes to 19A it will refuse the extra 1A? Same thin if i go over 500V DC? (which i find crazy scary by the way :):):))

So nothing should break down for sending 19Amps from the solar panels?

thanks a lot again, i really want to have 2 strings as it will maximize my system and voltage will be around 250 which is close to 220 AC i get from the electric company, so is close to 1:1
and unfortunately no one close to me can help with this issue, or tested before.

Daniel

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