PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 10:12

charliefd wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 01:00
For now (4 days) they seem to do their job but it is obvious they are a poor match to the pylontech battery bank. I use the voltages for charging (bulk/float) that I found in some victron documentation for interfacing with my bateries: 53.2V bulk charge and 53.0v floating.
Those are a bit high. See the PowerForum (they seem to use a lot of Pylontech batteries there), e.g. this post.
There is very poor matching on voltage measuring between the 3 units: 0.4V difference between highest and lowest one, with the one in the middle being 0.1V lower than the top value. The difference seems to be constant over a wide battery voltage and current levels. Is there any calibration that can be made on these?
There is, and I have a document on how it's done. But it's a bit complex, and likely designed for factory or repair depot use only.

It seems more likely to me that the inverters are about correct (they're usually pretty good; specification is 0.3% from memory, which is about 0.15 V). Have you measured the voltage at the inverter terminals? You are likely to see small variations due to voltage drops across the cables. Are your battery cables thick enough? They should be 25 mm² at least, preferably 35 mm², or 50 mm².

Edit: Also, the inverter to battery cables should be of the same length (to where they are commoned), as near as possible.

[ Edit: cables -> battery cables ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 14:03

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 10:12
Those are a bit high. See the PowerForum (they seem to use a lot of Pylontech batteries there), e.g. this post.
I'm reading as fast and as much as I can. It looks like I should lower the floating value to a safer value
coulomb wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 10:12
There is very poor matching on voltage measuring between the 3 units: 0.4V difference between highest and lowest one .... Is there any calibration that can be made on these?
There is, and I have a document on how it's done. But it's a bit complex, and likely designed for factory or repair depot use only.
I'm going to search for the procedure. You've done a terrific job documenting these units, thank you!
coulomb wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 10:12

It seems more likely to me that the inverters are about correct (they're usually pretty good; specification is 0.3% from memory, which is about 0.15 V). Have you measured the voltage at the inverter terminals? You are likely to see small variations due to voltage drops across the cables. Are your battery cables thick enough? They should be 25 mm² at least, preferably 35 mm², or 50 mm².

Edit: Also, the inverter to battery cables should be of the same length (to where they are commoned), as near as possible.

[ Edit: cables -> battery cables ]
I've measured at the terminals and at the point where the cables are commoned and the voltage difference is negligible: less than 0.015V on all inverters (no load). The inverters still display values 0.2 to 0.5V apart. The cables are 25mm^2 and short (different lengths: 25cm at the inverter showing the voltage very close to my voltmeter, 80cm to the one showing highest value (+0.25v), 1.3 m to the one showing 0.15V less than my voltmeter)

I'll raise the set-point for going back to utility to 48V as last night I lost power again. It sounds like the inverters are really hogging the remaining 15%-20% from the batteries during the night even though they are in bypass.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 16:09

Hi guys,
i want to add some Pylontech batteries to my setup,
Can the ICC software manage my PIPs for charging the Pylontech batteries using the modified firmware, or should i make my own scripts to manage the charging.
Thanks
IonutD

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mohfamous » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 16:25

Hi My friends
My PIP4048
shows on the LCD error 57
?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 19:09

mohfamous wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 16:25
My PIP4048 shows on the LCD error 57
It seems that there is a test at startup to check for DC offsets in any of these:
* The current transformer measuring load current
* The hall effect sensor measuring inverter output current
* The current sharing sensor, presumably only if your machine is paralleled with others (not a single machine, or 3 machines in 3-phase).
Instantaneous current is averaged over some time period, and if the result for any of the three measurements is greater than 100 (which might represent 10 .0 A or possibly 1.00 A), then fault code 57 (error 57) will be set.

Hall effect devices are notorious for drifting, and being sensitive to stray magnetic fields, even being magnetised themselves. If your warranty has expired, you could possibly try demagnetising it; it's the blue part outlined in red below:

Hall effect sensor.jpg
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Back in the days of magnetic tape recorders, there used to be a thing called a demagnetising wand. I believe that I still have one, and it seems you can still get them from Ebay or similar. You move the tip of the demagnetiser close to the device to be demagnetised, then move it slowly away. The idea is to create smaller and smaller magnetising loops in the magnetisable material, until the residual magnetism is near to zero. You may have to move it all around such a large device, and/or try a few times. Test by powering up the inverter from off. If that doesn't work, replace the part. If you're not prepared to try this, have the inverter repaired. I've never had this error, so I've never tried this remedy.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 19:34

ionutd wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 16:09
Can the ICC software manage my PIPs for charging the Pylontech batteries using the modified firmware, or should i make my own scripts to manage the charging.
I believe that ICC can or soon might be interfacing directly to the Pylontech CAN or RS232 bus.

Check this thread on the PowerForum (I didn't find out whether ICC can talk to the Pylontechs directly yet with a quick search), or ask there. I don't use either Pylontech batteries or ICC.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Emblema » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 20:31

PurePower wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 03:14
Emblema wrote:
Sun, 17 Jun 2018, 22:25

15 panels IBC SOLAR PolySol 265W ZX4 Inverter 5KVA (MPP Solar pip4048 model november 2016 Fw 72.90 - 4.12), 8 batteries AGM 400AH (48V)


If anybody help me...

Thanks a lot
Out of interest, did you install the SCC Firmware 4.12 yourself?
No.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Wed, 20 Jun 2018, 16:04

Emblema wrote:
Sun, 17 Jun 2018, 22:25
... when it rains the panels get wet and nothing happens, they continue to work well. The morning after, when the sunlight starts the panels do not start ...
That doesn't sound like an inverter problem to me. My suggestion is that water is leaking into some junction box or roof-top isolator, and it taking some time to reach wherever it causing problems. That would explain why you have solar production during the rain (water hasn't yet reached the problem area).
For about ten days, the batteries are no longer in floating mode but remain in CV mode.
Could it be connected to problem 1?
Yes, this could be related to your first problem, as you start solar production later. But that only explains the first day, I think.

It could also be many other things. It's winter now in the southern hemisphere (you don't say where you are from), so days are shorter, and the sun moves further north, which is less favourable for typical installations (panels flat against a low slope roof), so you may not have enough solar energy to fully charge the battery, and go from CV stage to float stage.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Tejota » Wed, 20 Jun 2018, 23:40

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 12 Feb 2018, 14:56


Weber and I have finally finished testing our patched firmware based on factory firmware version 73.00. Hardware that comes with factory firmware 73.00 has a neutral to earth relay, which is active only when the inverter is in battery mode.
I noticed that neutral to earth relay is active only when the inverter is in battery mode but when only the inverter is standalone. If there are several paralleled inverters neutral is not to earth (battery mode) on any paralleled inverters. Mmmm firmware problem or what?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jayA » Thu, 21 Jun 2018, 14:07

Hi @coulomb and @weber. First of all I want thank you for your effort and time of answering questions.

I would also like to ask you if I can use your patch to upgrade the firmware of my inverter. Current Main CPU 72.40 / Secondary CPU Version 1.24. I am not also sure if my inverter is manufactured by Voltronics. Please find attached photo and please let me know your thoughts about it.
received_10211275747239346.jpeg
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 21:20

It's the second time I see my inverters reporting a brief surge in PV production the exact moment of the switch from grid to solar. Would this be a freak coincidence, an artifact of the monitoring software (ICC) or just normal physics (that i would like to understand)?

I caught the event from today at 12:10:30 "on camera":
Image

P.S. load was reported constant (not shown on the graph above)

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by antiscab » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 23:28

Could it be the panels weren't at max power point until the inverter took some of the load? Likely array output was higher than what the batteries could take?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 05:00

antiscab wrote:
Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 23:28
Could it be the panels weren't at max power point until the inverter took some of the load? Likely array output was higher than what the batteries could take?
Thanks, that could have been an explanation as I haven't provided all the data: the power generated at the moment was well below the maximum charge current * battery voltage and the batteries were not full. Plus that the power level just spiked, shouldn't it have staid up after the inverter took the load?

Anyway, it was just a harmless spike on the graph that made me question my understanding of the system

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 08:03

jayA wrote:
Thu, 21 Jun 2018, 14:07
... if I can use your patch to upgrade the firmware of my inverter. Current Main CPU 72.40 / Secondary CPU Version 1.24.
Those are moderately old firmware versions, but it should be safe to update the main firmware to 73.00c. Don't use factory firmware 73.00, as it will think it's running on a clone and will stop working after 60 days. Also, we went to some trouble in the patched firmware to support older SCC firmware versions, including 1.24. I don't recall if the factory firmware was so accommodating. If for some reason you don't want to use patched firmware, it should be safe to update to 72.70, or 72.90 if you can find it. Our patched firmware files always have the original firmware in the zip file, e.g. dsp_original_72.70.hex. To update to factory firmware, copy this file over the top of dsp.hex and run the reflash tool.
I am not also sure if my inverter is manufactured by Voltronics.
It looks genuine to me, but the clones may be getting better at copying. Also, my impression is that most of the non-obvious clones come with much more recent firmware, so that also indicates (but doesn't prove) authenticity.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 05:43

hey guys,
do you have any idea that if i use POPnn to switch the inverter to grid/battery few times / day, will be written to EPROM and decrease the number of writes ?
thanks

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 06:59

ionutd wrote:
Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 05:43
if i use POPnn to switch the inverter to grid/battery few times / day, will be written to EPROM and decrease the number of writes ?
Yes, each Pxxx command including a POP command will cause a write to the EEPROM. But it's a separate chip from the processor, so it could be replaced cheaply if needed, but it has a long rated wear life anyway. See also where this was discussed earlier, accessible from the index in the first post of this topic.

Edit: if you sent 4 extra commands every hour, day and night, even with other usage, one million writes comes to over ten years.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PurePower » Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 15:08

coulomb wrote:
Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 08:03
I am not also sure if my inverter is manufactured by Voltronics.
It looks genuine to me, but the clones may be getting better at copying. Also, my impression is that most of the non-obvious clones come with much more recent firmware, so that also indicates (but doesn't prove) authenticity.
What indicators would prove authenticity?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PurePower » Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 15:17

coulomb wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 19:34
ionutd wrote:
Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 16:09
Can the ICC software manage my PIPs for charging the Pylontech batteries using the modified firmware, or should i make my own scripts to manage the charging.
I believe that ICC can or soon might be interfacing directly to the Pylontech CAN or RS232 bus.

Check this thread on the PowerForum (I didn't find out whether ICC can talk to the Pylontechs directly yet with a quick search), or ask there. I don't use either Pylontech batteries or ICC.
ICC does not yet make use of the Dynamic Current Control feature of the firmware but it does interface into the Pylontech batteries using the Console(RS232) port. It can pull important data like SOC, batt temp, batt cycles, ah remaining, voltage, watts and amps which is displayed in ICC. This at least allows you to automatically change between grid and solar based on SOC.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 16:20

PurePower wrote:
Sat, 30 Jun 2018, 15:08
What indicators would prove authenticity?
That's an interesting question. There are commands you can send it to determine whether the main firmware is from Voltronic, and others to check if the bootloader is the latest Voltronic version, but a correct response could just mean a clone maker has copied the firmware exactly (and illegally). But I suppose that such a correct response indicates a certain level of authenticity.

To me it's weird that Voltronic Power don't put their name on their products. They let the third parties put their names and even model numbers on their products. I think that just leads to confusion. I suppose they do it so they don't ever have to deal with end-users. So the distributors are supposed to add some mark-up to cover support. But they are competing with the other distributors, who might not add much for support, and therefore take away some of their sales. So it's a race to the bottom, and support is typically (but not universally) awful. That's part of why this topic exists; the users have to do a lot of their own support.

To answer your question, I can't think of any factor that would prove authenticity. You just have to know from others' previous experiences that supplier X sells authentic hardware and offers reasonable support.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by mave » Sun, 01 Jul 2018, 20:35

JvdSpoel wrote:
Tue, 28 Feb 2017, 00:36
Hi All,

Error Code 51

I got a couple of Axpert 5MKS inverters which I have replaced with new one's for customers which gave me a Error 51. The inverters still work but will come up with the error intermittently.

I would like to repair these one's so that I can use them for swopout units - anybody who have had these problems and repaired the mainboard who can assist? Which components are the probable cause - the IGBTs or Mosfets. Since they are working I assume that it could be component failure which is busy to happen.

The service manual does not give a lot of information about the error and what needs to be replaced. Like a error 09 I know that the IGBTs and mosfets had gone.

Johan
Hi Johan.

Sorry for this refloat, but I have a 4048MS with Error 51 and exactly same behavior. When disconnecting the solar panels, it seems to work ok for a few days, but after 3-5 days the error re-occur. So it seems to me that it's an "overcurrent" read for some sensor. When PV is connected the current is higher and more probably to occur. But without them still occur.

Did you be able to solve the Error 51? How?

I have the same problem with a 4048MS (almost 4 years old, with original firmware).

Regards

[ Edited Coulomb: Removed near-duplicate post by combining two. ]

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 03 Jul 2018, 09:53

mave wrote:
Sun, 01 Jul 2018, 20:35
I have a 4048MS with Error 51 and exactly same behavior.
Last time I read the firmware related to error 51 (fault code 51) in this post, I seemed to think it was associated with a 192 A limit. Upon reviewing the code now, I see I was confusing samples with amps (these differ by a factor of 25). It occurs after reading either of two current samples, and occurs when the sample exceeds an "overcurrent limit". This limit starts out at 40 A, but is increased to 80 A when in battery mode and nothing bad goes wrong. The error only happens when the current limit has been increased to 80 A. There are two AC current sensors, I believe that one measures inverter current, and the other measures load current. I assume that these currents are instantaneous, not RMS. Even so, 80 A peak translates to abut 56 A RMS for a sine wave, which at 230 V is some 13 kVA. There is a separate current limit (not called the "over" current limit, just the ordinary limit, which starts at 32 A and increases to 65 A. 65 A peak translates to 50 A RMS, which represents 10.5 kVA, just over the Volt-Amp limit for the inverter (overload allowed for 10 seconds). So a reading of ≥80 A is pretty bad, and hence it triggers fault code 51.
When disconnecting the solar panels, it seems to work ok for a few days, but after 3-5 days the error re-occur.
I don't understand why disconnecting solar panels would have any effect. Perhaps it's merely co-incidental, although another poster also mentioned the connection.
So it seems to me that it's an "overcurrent" read for some sensor.
That agrees with my reading of the firmware. Assuming that nothing catastrophic is happening, such as an intermittent short circuit of the inverter or load outputs (perhaps a protection MOV is breaking down prematurely), it has to be either the Hall Effect sensor (blue), or the current transformer (looks much like many of the other transformers, with yellow tape over the windings). Or of course the circuits associated with those sensors; presumably there are filter and amplifier components.

[ Edit: Quick note re 192 A confusion. ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 21:51

hey guys,
i'm thinking of switching off the PIPs during night and switch them on in the morning, i have 3 PIPs and i don't like the consumption of ~3 amps :).
do you think its ok to do that ? also what do you think will be the best solution for that, i'm thinking at switching load to grid, wait a couple of minutes and then switch off the inverters or just switch off the inverters and have a bypass that will transfer the load to the grid when the inverter doesn't output any power ?
Thanks
IonutD

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40

ionutd wrote:
Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 21:51
... have a bypass that will transfer the load to the grid when the inverter doesn't output any power ?
That's the way that Weber and I have arranged our energy systems. Personally, I find it extremely convenient. Any time I need to work on the PIP inverter, I just isolate as needed, and the power stays on. If something really high stress happens to a battery cell, the Battery Management System will drop out the PIP system, and this final changeover contactor ensures that power stays on. Even if I need to hit the big red switch on the energy system, which drops out some 7 contactors, the power stays on to the house.

Of course, this contactor is also a parasitic load, which is normally supplied by the battery at night. But it's not a huge load, and it's mostly inductive, so the drain on the battery is much less than from one PIP inverter. Plus, there is the peace of mind from continuous power. I've never had a computer reset due to changeovers, either inside the PIP, or due to the external changeover contactor. My external contactor is a Hager ES470, rated at 63 A. Your electrician needs to know how to wire something like that, but I imagine that most would. It has two normally open contacts and two normally closed. The neutral from the inverter is switched, but not the supply neutral. The contactor takes up 3 17.5 mm bays in the house switchbox.

[ Edit: relay - > contactor, has 2 sets of NO and NC contacts.]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 13:25

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40
How does the BMS drop out the PIP system, disconnect battery ?
Yes. Crude, but effective :evil:
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:40
The neutral from the inverter is switched, but not the supply neutral.
I don't think i got this, you mean that you only switch the load, but you leave the inverter with the GRID ON ?
Sorry, that was a bit obscure. The active is switched between the inverter and the grid, and the neutral to the inverter disconnects when in there is no inverter output, but the load always connects to grid neutral.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by charliefd » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 21:36

ionutd wrote:
Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 13:25

....
The active is switched between the inverter and the grid, and the neutral to the inverter disconnects when in there is no inverter output, but the load always connects to grid neutral.
....
If I read the above correctly in your setup the grid neutral will be connected to the inverters' output neutral when the load is powered by the inverters ? And this will stay true for both bypass mode and battery/solar mode.

The company that performed the installation warned that in battery mode the neutral is "floating" and I could have trouble using devices that expect true zero potential neutral line (e.g. certain type of flame detectors). Moreover they stated that a true 4p switch-over switch should be used and not a 3P+N that has the N permanently connected to one of the sources.

Connecting the the various neutrals to the same reference (grid neutral) sounds like good practice to me as long as the inverters don't mind. To complicate things more there is the option to have neutral tied to ground by the inverters when in battery mode: i guess with your setup that option needs to stay off ?!

Thanks for educating me with all this! Reading this thread alone has been a tremendous jump-start for me. In time I hope I will be able to contribute to it.
For now I can report my experience running 73.00c on all 3 inverters without issues (3 days now). I will also warn others against performing the upgrade with the grid connected to the inverters: for 2 out of 3 inverters the flashing went on without issues, the 3rd one started extremely slow (more than 1h to 40%) and kept dropping out of the process at various percentages. Re-trying would usually resume the flashing (just as slow) until at 65% dropped out and resumed at ... 30%. By that time it was obvious it might never finish, so I cut all power to it, turned it on on battery only (no LCD by now) and the flashing went on flawlessly and just as fast as the other 2 had been: 9blocks/s.

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