Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by E-STATION » Sun, 15 Apr 2018, 23:00

Toshiba SCiB battery automotive implementations: http://www.scib.jp/en/applications/automotive.htm#car02

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Mon, 16 Apr 2018, 08:23

What would a hybrid super capacitor graph look like then?

Could there be more than one type of curve that they could produce?
Every curve you'll find has regions that are capacitor-like. At higher currents, they become more and more capacitor-like. Feel free to provide us with counter-examples.

Let's attempt to be reasonable here - we are being shown devices that physically look exactly like readily available and cheap LTO cells. They are the same size and shape. They perform electrically exactly like LTO cells. They do not perform electrically like capacitors, at all, so how can they be capacitors?

There has been no announcement in scientific or engineering publications that would support the position that ultra/supercapacitors of any chemistry of this size exist today with this capacity, in any lab anywhere, much less in commercial quantities, at any price. Who is supposedly manufacturing these miracle devices?

Given all of that, why would anyone conclude anything other than that these are the readily available, cheap LTO cells?
There is zero evidence that they are anything else, and strong evidence that they are exactly what they appear to be.

Putting all of that aside for a moment, we have the more recent claim that readily available carbon-LTO 1.5V cells are another graphene supercapacitor product.
Yet they are clearly the batteries pictured earlier in the thread with a sticker attached, and are not supercapacitors.

How do you explain that? Someone is being misleading here, and it would appear to be whoever is attaching those stickers to cover the printed information that identifies the devices as batteries. I await your explanation with interest, @whysomean.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 04:23

Hi Enthusiasts, to help address the comments before this one, we just made a Super Capacitor fast charge test.

https://youtu.be/iEF03oyGWrI


We’ve now have several visits from engineers to view and test the technology in person due to the invite we’ve made. The doors are open to anyone to come to test the technology in person. Bring your own testing gear and work with us on this great new technology.

There is also a great Paper recently published in Nov 2017 titled “Graphene supercapacitor with both high power and energy density”. Although you have to pay for a copy, it’s really worth reading.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28854156

Abstract
Supercapacitors, based on fast ion transportation, are specialized to provide high power, long stability, and efficient energy storage using highly porous electrode materials. However, their low energy density excludes them from many potential applications that require both high energy density and high power density performances. Using a scalable nanoporous graphene synthesis method involving an annealing process in hydrogen, here we show supercapacitors with highly porous graphene electrodes capable of achieving not only a high power density of 41 kW kg-1 and a Coulombic efficiency of 97.5%, but also a high energy density of 148.75 Wh kg-1. A high specific gravimetric and volumetric capacitance (306.03 F g-1 and 64.27 F cm-3) are demonstrated. The devices can retain almost 100% capacitance after 7000 charging/discharging cycles at a current density of 8 A g-1. The superior performance of supercapacitors is attributed to their ideal pore size, pore uniformity, and good ion accessibility of the synthesized graphene.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Rusdy » Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 09:41

Hi @Supercaps , although you already mentioned you don't sell the individual cells, perhaps, you still have some individual supercap cells floating around in your workshop?

I'd be very interested to buy a dozen of them. Please?

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 12:12

Supercaps wrote:
Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 04:23
Hi Enthusiasts, to help address the comments before this one, we just made a Super Capacitor fast charge test.

https://youtu.be/iEF03oyGWrI
Hi @Supercaps. I love how, in all these test videos, you decide in advance that it's a supercapacitor, then the test itself shows unambiguously that it's a battery, then at the end you still claim it's a supercapacitor. You know, when you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, you really should stop digging. Why not become an evangelist for Lithium Titanate batteries? They really are a very good battery, and you have the first product in Australia that uses them. They do have greater longevity and safety, and faster charge and discharge rates, than other lithium batteries, just nowhere near those you've been claiming. Have you heard from the ACCC yet?

I suppose you might be worried that, if you admit they are not what you said they were, the Victorian government might want their $825,000 back.

I hope you're getting good legal advice. I suspect your best option is to come clean now, and just admit you were duped in regard to the nature of the energy storage component, and so unwittingly made false claims. But you can rightly claim that it is still a perfectly good energy storage component, and so the system of which it is a part is still a perfectly good system.
There is also a great Paper recently published in Nov 2017 titled “Graphene supercapacitor with both high power and energy density”. Although you have to pay for a copy, it’s really worth reading.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28854156
For those who, like me, don't want to pay for something of doubtful relevance, this looks like it might be an earlier version of that paper:
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1311/1311.1413.pdf
It is great stuff. And I hope that it can be commercialised at reasonable cost in far less than the 10 years it typically takes, when it happens at all.

I note that the device described in this paper is quite different from previous types that you and your supporter have claimed your device might be. It is not a battery/supercap hybrid, but a pure symmetrical supercap (both electrodes are graphene). And the version that achieves, in a coin cell in the lab, energy storage per kilogram approaching that of lithium-ion batteries (but nowhere near the energy per litre) does not use lithium ions at all, as you have been claiming your "supercapacitors" do, but instead uses an exotic "ionic liquid" electrolyte that presently costs $855 for 50 grams and freezes solid below 15 °C (note: that's +15 °C, not -15 °C). Another name for an "ionic liquid" is a "room temperature molten salt".

Also, we can calculate the charge time for the supercaps in this paper from the specific power and specific energy given in the abstract. 148.75 watt-hours per kilogram divided by 41,000 watts per kilogram gives 0.0036 hours which is 13 seconds. Your device can't even charge in 130 seconds, let alone the 30 seconds you have been falsely claiming all along. But I am pleased to see you understood Coulomb's point about how it is (battery-like) internal resistance, not the size of the leads, that is limiting the charge rate.

Your latest test only confirms what we already knew. That your device does not behave at all like a capacitor, but behaves exactly like a lithium titanate battery.

In that paper, you can see that when charged from zero volts, in a similar time to what you tried to achieve in your latest experiment, the graphene supercapacitor only jumps up to about 1 volt initially, due to internal resistance, and then gradually ramps up, fairly linearly, all the way to 4 volts. In contrast, your device jumps immediately to whatever voltage your power supply is set to, and stays there the whole time.

You might have supplied 3 Wh to the device in the first 90 seconds, but there's no way it stored 3 Wh in that time. Clearly a significant percentage was turned to heat. The fact that it was still pulling 5.5 amps (4.3C) at 2.7 volts after 150 seconds (2:30) shows that it was nowhere near full at 90 seconds.

The only way to find out how much it had stored at 90 seconds would be to stop charging it at 90 seconds and do a slow controlled discharge, as in one of your earlier experiments, to measure how much charge you can get out.

This latest experiment just shows an LTO cell being abused. If it got to 74 °C on the outside, it must have been much hotter in the middle. If you had measured its capacity and internal resistance before the experiment, and again after it had been left to cool overnight, you would have found that its capacity had decreased and its resistance increased, due to the abuse.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 12:24

@Supercaps We're still waiting for you to explain why, when you remove the Kilowatt Labs sticker from your claimed USB-chargeable AA-sized "graphene supercapacitor", it says "LTO" and "battery"? And why the words "graphene" and "capacitor" are nowhere to be found?
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 12:28

weber wrote:
Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 12:12
...the Victorian government might want their $825,000 back.
Ouch! :o

I hate how the government just hands out money willy-nilly to people with half-baked ideas.
They should just give it to me :roll: :lol:
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 13:58

Richo wrote:
Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 12:28
weber wrote:
Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 12:12
...the Victorian government might want their $825,000 back.
Ouch! :o

I hate how the government just hands out money willy-nilly to people with half-baked ideas.
They should just give it to me :roll: :lol:
Here are the details:
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/developi ... ting-jobs/
I note that the government's decision to award the grant to the Arvio-led consortium probably wasn't influenced in any way by any supercapacitor claims. In support of that, this related article shows an Arvio system using what looks like lead-acid batteries.
http://www.enhar.com.au/news/enhar-assi ... t-funding/

I think Arvio's "Independence Day" system, as a whole, is quite good. From what I've heard, its control software and internet interface are particularly good, and it uses what may be the best inverters on the planet. The only thing I'm concerned about is the false claims Arvio is making about their energy storage device.

It is important to protect consumers from false claims, and Arvio have been given every chance to retract their claims and have not done so. It's my understanding that the ACCC typically won't act on something like this until they get a reasonable number of reports. So if anyone reading this has the knowledge to understand what these test videos are telling us, or otherwise has reason to suspect the claims that Arvio still have on their website, including projected lives of 1,000,000 cycles and 45 years, and operating up to 85 °C, then please make a report to the ACCC. It is easy to do online, here.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by digsys » Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 19:49

Great investigative work weber ... I support your findings / analysis

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Wed, 25 Apr 2018, 06:39

Thanks for your efforts in continuing to provide these videos, @Supercaps.

I'm afraid that I must concur with @weber's analysis though - your fast charge test is completely consistent with an LTO cell that is being charged well outside of its safe zone (you really should enclose the cells in an explosion-proof transparent container if you are going to continue doing this demonstration), and not at all consistent with any kind of capacitor. @weber's suggestion of a discharge test after cool-down is a very good one, in order to determine how much recoverable energy was stored during the cell torture.
We’ve now have several visits from engineers to view and test the technology in person due to the invite we’ve made.
You're communicating with a number of engineers here on this forum as well. I'd be very interested to hear what feedback you have received from your visitors.

Oh, and what @weber said about the USB-chargeable AA-sized "graphene supercapacitors".

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Post by weber » Thu, 26 Apr 2018, 12:14

@Supercaps Paul, I'm guessing there is no one in your organisation with an Electrical Engineering degree, or by now they would have told you that the emperor has no capacitance.

And clearly you don't believe the electrical engineers on this and other forums, who are telling you this for free, based on the data from your own tests. And if any electrical engineer has visited your workshop and done tests to determine whether these devices are capacitors or batteries, then clearly you don't believe them either. If their results supported your beliefs, I expect you would have published them by now.

I notice that Swinburne University of Technology is just down the road from you. They teach a course in Analytical Chemistry. Why not contact the lecturer and ask if they would like to have a "mystery device" for students to practice on? They could assign different groups to analyse the anode material, cathode material, electrolyte solvent and electrolyte salt. Although it's really only the cathode material that is telling: Graphene in the case of a graphene supercapacitor, and nickel/manganese/cobalt oxides (with some carbon for conductivity) in the case of a 2.4 V LTO battery.

I note that you have not answered my earlier question regarding what it would take to convince you. And despite having now proved, yourself, that you can't charge them in 30 seconds, you apparently still think they are supercapacitors. If Swinburne were to find that the chemistry is exactly as expected for an LTO battery, and there is insufficient graphene to explain more than a tiny fraction of its energy storage, would you accept that these devices are not supercapacitors or hybrids?
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TEV » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 11:37

Paul from Arvio was interviewed on the BZE Technology Radio Show this morning.

You can listen to the podcast HERE, but only until next Friday, when it will be replaced by the next one.

http://www.3cr.org.au/beyondzero-0

[Edit: It can now be found here: http://bze.org.au/podcast-technology201 ... capacitor/]

I have tried to transcribe the following accurately, but there might be small differences like "could", "would" and the odd comma.

"70 watt hours per kilogram".

"It is often called a hybrid supercapacitor or an electrochemical capacitor as distinct from an electrolytic capacitor".

Edit: The questions from this list get a mention near the end from about the 24 minute range.

"It is an electrochemical capacitor, so it has a lot of properties that are like a battery, so the crossover between a capacitor and a battery ".

"so the crossover between a capacitor and a battery is this middle range, which is a supercapacitor."

"So I guess some people could call it a battery if you look at some of the properties, other people would
call it a capacitor if you look at the other properties. I think I'll let others decide what they want to call it."

"The sceptics have been invited to come down and I haven't seen one yet."

Tev

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 14:19

Said sceptics need not pay an expensive visit to Victoria - he just needs to remove the sticker from his USB drives.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 15:12

Get on to the WCCC. These guys are selling LTO cells too.

https://worldghc.en.alibaba.com/product ... citor.html

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Post by jonescg » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 16:15

whysomean wrote:
Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 15:12
Get on to the WCCC. These guys are selling LTO cells too.

https://worldghc.en.alibaba.com/product ... citor.html
SuperLTO.JPG
SuperLTO.JPG (50.46 KiB) Viewed 964 times
They have the same sales objectives too :lol:
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 17:11

whysomean wrote:
Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 15:12
Get on to the WCCC. These guys are selling LTO cells too.

https://worldghc.en.alibaba.com/product ... citor.html
Thanks for the heads-up, whysomean. Clearly, claims by a seller on Alibaba trump actual test data.

But wait a minute! These can't be the marvelous 3000 F 2.7 V supercapacitors that Paul is using! These pathetic supercapacitors only do 20,000 cycles. Paul's do 50 times that! And these don't work up to 85 °C. They only work to 65 °C. Or is it 60 °C? Oh wait, they say 85 °C further down. I wish they'd make up their minds. But these supercapacitors do charge to 95% in 10 seconds. Or is it 10 minutes? And there's no mention of the all-important wonder-substance graphene!

So there must be two completely different kinds of supercapacitor that just happen to fit 3000 F 2.7 V in a 19 x 65 mm can, that have arrived completely unheralded by any reports of this amazing reduction in volume by a factor of 20 or more.

Amazing!
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Fri, 27 Apr 2018, 17:55

So there must be two completely different kinds of supercapacitor that just happen to fit 3000 F 2.7 V in a 19 x 65 mm can, that have arrived completely unheralded by any reports of this amazing reduction in volume by a factor of 20 or more.

Amazing!
I know right. How good is that! And here we were thinking there was only one.
Truly amazing.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 05:04

Truly amazing.
Careful there, @whysomean, your smokescreen is slipping a little :roll:

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Post by Johny » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 05:15

TCryptos wrote:
Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 05:04
Truly amazing.
Careful there, @whysomean, your smokescreen is slipping a little :roll:
...inability to detect sarcasm.

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Post by weber » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 10:08

Toxicity

@Supercaps. Paul, it was good to hear you concede in that radio interview (at 17:25) that they are not non-toxic, as you previously claimed. There's hope for you yet. ;) But your claim of a half-life of 4 days, broken down by UV light, only applies to the electrolyte solvent. You're ignoring the salt that is left behind when the solvent evaporates. In both lithium ion capacitors and lithium ion batteries, this is lithium hexafluorophosphate. Here's an MSDS for lithium hexafluorophosphate. In it we read things like:

     Harmful if swallowed. Toxic in contact with skin. Causes burns. Hygroscopic (absorbs moisture from the air).

     Chemical Stability:
          Stable.
     Conditions to Avoid:
          Exposure to moist air or water.
     Incompatibilities with Other Materials:
          Strong oxidizing agents, strong acids.
     Hazardous Decomposition Products:
          Phosphine, hydrogen fluoride gas, phosphorous fumes
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by MDK » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 11:23

weber wrote:
Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 10:08
hydrogen fluoride gas
Not that phosphine or phosporous are pleasant, but HF is particularly nasty

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Post by weber » Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 12:33

85 °C operation

Paul, I was interested to hear that now, if someone wants to call it a battery, that's OK with you (25:38). I suppose that's progress of a sort. But we agree, what really matters here, is not what you call it—you can call it a turbo encabulator if you like. What matters is whether the claims you are making, to convince people to buy it, are true. Although it still matters what you call it, because calling it a supercapacitor makes the false claims seem more plausible.

I also think it is a hopeful sign that you pointed out, that as well as supercapacitors advancing, lithium ion batteries are advancing, and we just don't know [which will be the best in the future] (11:29). I was also pleased to note that you are no longer claiming a 30 second charge time.

But I note that you are still claiming operation up to 85 °C. In fact you mentioned that some potential customers (remote railways) were interested specifically because of that claim (2:56).

You're good at doing tests, so I think it's time for you to test that claim.

I realise it's a difficult test to do, so I suggest something simpler to start with. Let's just see how rapidly one of your cells ages when merely stored at 85 °C. I don't think it will take 45 years to show results. I think a week ought to do it. :)

I realise you may not have the equipment to do that, so I researched the following low-cost ($50) product. It could be connected to any old slow cooker. But I can't help thinking a crock-pot would be more appropriate. ;-)
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Inkbird-ITC ... .l4275.c10

To see how much the cell ages in 7 days at 85 °C, you need to measure its capacity and internal resistance at 25 °C before and after the test. You can measure internal resistance by measuring the drop in voltage when you apply a step increase in load current, and dividing delta V by delta I. The SoC should be around 50% when you do this. I note that end-of-life is considered to be when the capacity falls below 80% of its original value. But a doubling of internal resistance would also be grounds for divorce.

Image

Edit: The audio of Paul Wilson's BZE interview can be found here.
P.P.S. Thanks @TEV for letting us know about the interview.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 06:17

Yeh cause having a range up to 85deg and running at 85deg for prolonged lengths is equivalent. :lol:

Go and run your car for a full tank at 8000rpm and see how that does for it.

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Post by coulomb » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 06:51

whysomean wrote:
Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 06:17
Yeh cause having a range up to 85deg and running at 85deg for prolonged lengths is equivalent. :lol:
Capacitors do have a rated lifetime at the maximum rated temperature. The best electrolytic capacitors, which I'm more familiar with, have for example a life of 10,000 hours at 105°C. That's all 10,000 hours at 105°C. You expect much more than 10,000 hours (1.15 years) lifetime at a lower average temperature. "Lifetime" is part of the specification: usually 80% of nominal capacitance at end of life, with leakage not to exceed a given amount.

So sorry, engines at their RPM limit is not a valid comparison. Capacitor temperature ratings are a continuous rating; engine RPM limits are a peak rating.

Of course, batteries are a bit different. Those you want to keep away from high temperatures all the time. But the claim is that these are capacitors, so you'd expect them to be able to last at least 2000 hours at 85°C (the standard rating for the cheapest electrolytic capacitors). I haven't seen a datasheet for a 3000 F capacitor [ Edit: in a 18650 format ], and I don't believe it exists, so I can't confirm whether these claimed capacitors will have a life that exceeds that of a low-specification electrolytic capacitor or not.

Edit: this 3000 F 2.7 V 139 x 60 mm capacitor has a rating of 2,500 hours at 65°C, and 10 years at room temperature.
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Post by weber » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 07:59

Don't take our word for it. Google the definition of "Operating temperature range" to confirm that it's a continuous rating.

Paul claims an "Operating temperature range of -30 °C to 85 °C" here.

Here are datasheets for some more 3000 F supercapacitors:
http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents ... 141104.pdf
https://www.skeletontech.com/hubfs/1705 ... et-SCA.pdf

As you can see, they will run for 1,500 hours (9 weeks) at their maximum operating temperature, with at most a 20% reduction in capacitance and a doubling of equivalent series resistance. I'm only asking Paul to test his "supercapacitor" for 1 week at his claimed maximum operating temperature.
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