Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by reecho » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 09:55

I thought judging by the date @Supercaps would come clean.... :-)

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 14:58

Hi All.
It’s good to see all the conjecture and concern. It’s a great way to discuss technology. Thanks for the compliements and concerns.
I found a good article that may help broaden the debate somewhat.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... .201600539

Our offer remains open for experts and enthusiasts to come to see us in Mitcham, Victoria. We’re open every business day. Bring your measuring tools, lab power supplies and an open mind and we’ll assist you in any way we can to satisfy your interest.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by coulomb » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 18:04

@Supercaps, the discharge test shows the voltage plummeting at the end, and the charge test shows the voltage springing up at the start.

These are both textbook demonstrations of a battery cell. How can you maintain that they are capacitors?
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 19:01

There are many reasons the super capacitors we use should be considered as electro batteries and not electrochemical batteries as some have speculated.
1. According to others in this thread LTO chemical batteries have the same flammable electrolyte as other lithium batteries. Yet the blow torch test shows that the electrolyte coming from the super capacitor only burns when a flame is held to it. So it’s a non-flammable electrolyte. This is one of the reasons we can send it by air freight.
2. We can discharge the super capacitor repeatedly to 0V and there is no loss of performance. Others in this thread explain that this would damage an LTO cell and to my knowledge other electrochemical batteries would be damaged if this took place.
3. We have cycle tested the super capacitor modules over thousands of cycles without loss of performance. The tests showed an average round trip efficiency of 96% with 50 minutes each way cycles over a 24 hour period. If we used electrochemical batteries we would not get this performance.
4. The manufacture has spent a lot of time with us and explained in detail the techniques behind their products design and performance. We cannot share this IP but we understand it and can easily show the outcomes of the super capacitor units are not like electrochemical battery modules.
5. Other groups present on the internet have been developing super capacitors with lithium ion electrodes with similar charge curves. Kilowatt Labs are not unique in this, just that they have achieved higher density.
6. Theoretical graphene super capacitors with non traditional electrodes have capacities 3 x higher than we already use.
7. If we were using LTO cells the cost of the turnkey product would be much higher due to the higher cost materials needed to make LTO cells. If this were really true we’d lose money selling it at the price we do and the recipient would be getting a bargain. That’s not good business.
8. The super capacitor modules do not get hot when charged and discharged at very high rates such as 20 mins to full and empty.
9. When charging we have show a linear charge rate to full on the super capacitor modules.
10. There is no equalising required when charging the super capacitors to full which would be required with electrochemical cells.
11. We can parallel the modules almost indefinitely without a BMS. Other lithium modules in the market need BMSs to run units in parallel.
12. We have made an open offer to all to come and inspect and test if they need further evidence. If anyone is absolutely convinced that there is something to question about our representations, they can come and test with no obligation. Given that many have postured and made suggestions that they are right and the product we stock and sell doesn’t do what the product clearly does when operated, no concerned person has come to make good on their concerns and see it in person.
13. I could go on. But really, the simplest thing would be to come and see us and test it for free or buy a unit and test it for yourself.
14. Yes, we understand that the shape of the charge curve is different to a traditional capacitor, but it’s also different to a traditional lithium ion battery.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 20:14

Paul, I know this must be very difficult for you to accept, but the manufacturer is lying to you. None of those things you have written, about the differences between your device and an LTO battery, is true. We know about lithium battery/supercapacitor hybrids. Your tests do not show the slightest hint of capacitive behaviour. They are batteries pure and simple. You have already given us more than enough information to be sure of this. There is no conjecture involved. But there is serious concern that you are doing the whole energy-storage industry a great disservice.

Is there anything that would convince you, that your devices are not supercapacitors or hybrids? You seem completely impervious to the evidence staring you in the face. Can you describe some test outcome that would convince you?

How about actually trying to charge one in 30 seconds as you've repeatedly claimed possible? Or even in one minute. That 90 amp power supply of yours could charge it in one minute (if it was a supercapacitor, or hybrid). But (because it's really a battery) I estimate you would need to crank it up to about 10 volts to force the required 80 amps into it. If you're crazy enough to try this, please wear a face shield, and monitor the device's temperature.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 20:41

weber wrote:
Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 20:14
If you're crazy enough to try this, please wear a face shield, and monitor the device's temperature.
And for goodness sake get it on video! :D
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Adverse Effects » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 22:02

ummm
11. We can parallel the modules almost indefinitely without a BMS. Other lithium modules in the market need BMSs to run units in parallel.
you dont need a BMS in parallel cells only in series cells

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Adverse Effects » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 22:07

and i am no chemist but a gas that burns hard when a flame is on it but wont burn with out a combustible in it would be an oxadent wouldn't it? like NoS wont burn but it helps other things burn

not saying there electrolyte is NoS but that type of thing

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 03:02

Hi Adverse effects, I was referring to modules not cells. By that I mean a unit in our case made of 1200 cells in series and parallel.
We can parallel the modules almost indefinitely.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 05:34

@Supercaps, there has been some discussion over on Whirlpool about a group buy of one complete unit for testing (and that may well happen), but a simpler solution would be to sell a couple of the individual components that you've been testing in the videos for independent testing. Would you be prepared to do that?

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 06:42

Here's another idea, Paul.

I would be happy to pay for a few LTO battery cells to be delivered to you, so you can subject them to exactly the same tests you have done on your supposed supercapacitors. If they were to behave in exactly the same way, would you then accept that your devices are in fact LTO battery cells? Or would you then claim that I had somehow obtained some Kilowatt Labs supercapacitors that were mislabeled as LTO cells? :)
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 14:33

Can you get 2.7V LTO cells?
If you can what are the cost per cell?
What are the normal costs of 2.4V LTO cells?

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 15:05

No one's trying to be mean, @whysomean , if anything people are concerned for @Supercaps and his business.

The 2.4V is nominal. If you have a look here: https://www.ev-power.eu/Technical-suppo ... sults.html, you'll see the same voltage / time curve that supercaps shows in his discharge test video.

Alibaba has them for $1 each in quantity: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 33315JmI4I

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 17:07

Actually here is the reply when the manufacture of the LTO electrochemical battery referenced was asked for a quote for a 3Wh cell.

"Nice to receive your inquiry. 3W LTO battery cell are 1300mAh capacity. so I can offer you LTO 1865 1300mAh battery cell. the price are USD $2.5."

The price you stated of $1/cell is actually advertised as $1 - $30 on Alibaba.

At the quoted price of usd$2.5 per cell or aud $3.30, the Supercaps unit would then have $4,000 worth of cells in it at factory price and is being sold as a finished unit for $3,550 with a case, circuit boards, circuit breaker, bms, remote access, labour to build etc. Not very plausible IMO that @supercaps would use LTO and sell at a loss.

Also the spec sheet from the Chinese supplier shows a maximum charge of 3.9A but Supercaps showed a charge rate of at least 10A of their super caps.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 17:41

Yes, they would have to be buying in large quantities ex-factory. Here's a larger capacity cell at 1500 mAH in quantity from $US 1.30:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 59a6a8FcFN

So $1 in quantity for 1300 mAH seems possible to me.

Note the familiar voltage / time curve again in this link.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 18:31

Again, thats from $1.30. Get an actual quote.

Shouldn't the curve look similar considering they both have lithium electrodes?
None go down to 0V though.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 20:46

whysomean wrote:
Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 17:07
Actually here is the reply when the manufacture of the LTO electrochemical battery referenced was asked for a quote for a 3Wh cell. ...
You got a quote for "a" 3 Wh cell? I think a quote for a million of them would be more relevant—more like the price Kilowatt Labs would have paid.

I posted in this thread a week ago, a photo and link to a 3 Wh (1.3 Ah) LTO cell that looks exactly like the ones Paul has been testing (blue, with only a negative stripe, and no text to indicate it's an LTO). Here's the link again:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 12914.html
It clearly states US $1.80 each for quantities of 10 thousand or more.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 21:25

whysomean wrote:
Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 18:31
Shouldn't the curve look similar considering they both have lithium electrodes?
A lithium-ion battery/supercapacitor hybrid is also called a lithium-ion capacitor or LIC for short. You can see the difference between the voltage curves of an LIC and a lithium-ion battery (LIB) in figure 3a of this paper.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf
I note that the battery compared in this paper is not an LTO, but an LCO. An LTO voltage curve as shown here:
https://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?sect ... id=1325358
is much the same shape as the LCO, but lowered by about 1.5 volts.

The important difference is the slope of the straight-line part of the curve near zero time. In the case of the battery this slope is nearly vertical. In the case of the supercap hybrid (and a plain supercap) it is far more gentle. The higher the capacitance, the more gentle the slope for the same charging current. dV/dt = I / C.

I note also, that a battery/supercapacitor hybrid is not limited to 2.7 volts like an ordinary supercapacitor, but can go up to 3.65 volts, as shown in Figure 3a. If Kilowatt Labs were using a hybrid supercap, why would they have 20 in series for a nominal 48 volt battery when 15 would do?
None go down to 0V though.
You may get away with discharging a lithium ion battery cell to zero volts several times. It's like playing Russian roulette. While it is undervoltage, the copper current collector is slowly dissolving in the electrolyte. Then when you recharge the cell, the copper plates out again, but not where or how you'd want it to. It tends to plate out as whiskers (or "dendrites"), and eventually a dendrite pierces a separator and causes an internal short-circuit between positive and negative electrodes. This tends to overheat and destroy the cell, sometimes leading to fire, although this is less likely with the LFP and LTO chemistries.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Tue, 03 Apr 2018, 05:01

weber wrote:
Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 20:46
I posted in this thread a week ago, a photo and link to a 3 Wh (1.3 Ah) LTO cell that looks exactly like the ones Paul has been testing (blue, with only a negative stripe, and no text to indicate it's an LTO). Here's the link again:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 12914.html
It clearly states US $1.80 each for quantities of 10 thousand or more.
That wasn't a quote for one. It was for 10000.
At $1.8USD it still works out too expensive. Thats almost $2800 just for the cells.

Those cells also have a maximum charge of 5A which has already shown a charge of 10A.

I believe @supercaps has already done > 1000 (100/day) charges/discharges (full cycles) down to 0 and back to 2.7V with the same > 95% efficiency as stated previously.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Tue, 03 Apr 2018, 05:49

It was for 10000.
Multiply that by 100 for the number that Kilowatt Labs would order, and drop the price accordingly. You do understand the "from" pricing on Alibaba, I take it (?), but in case not: the lowest price is for large quantities. If you can easily find "from $1" in 10 seconds on Alibaba, what price can you get by flying to China and negotiating direct with the largest factories?
Those cells also have a maximum charge of 5A which has already shown a charge of 10A.
That's the specification for maximum safe charging without reducing cell life, it doesn't mean that you can't push more than that into the cell, heating it and reducing its cycle life.
I believe @supercaps has already done > 1000 (100/day) charges/discharges (full cycles) down to 0 and back to 2.7V with the same > 95% efficiency as stated previously.
That is the claim that appears to be beyond any otherwise reported commercially developed technology, and that is the reason that people here are asking for independent testing.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Tue, 03 Apr 2018, 09:01

whysomean wrote:
Tue, 03 Apr 2018, 05:01
At $1.8USD it still works out too expensive. Thats almost $2800 just for the cells.
You complain about the speck in our eye, but ignore the log in your own. Where is your evidence that anyone right now can make or buy an LIC to store 3 Wh in an 18 x 65 mm can for all the money in the world, let alone $1.80?

The best LIC I can find is 270 farads in a 25 x 40 mm can from Taiyo Yuiden. Between 2.2 V and 2.7 V that can only store ½×270×(2.7²-2.2²)/3600 = 0.09 Wh. Out by a factor of 33!
Those cells also have a maximum charge of 5A which has already shown a charge of 10A.
What TCryptos said.
I believe @supercaps has already done > 1000 (100/day) charges/discharges (full cycles) down to 0 and back to 2.7V with the same > 95% efficiency as stated previously.
No. Not even Paul claimed he was taking them down to zero volts in his module cycling test. At worst he claimed he was taking them down to 0% SoC, which is nominally 44 volts (rested) for the module (2.2 V per cell).

In this video, if you ignore what Paul is saying and just look at the numbers, you can see that he is in fact cycling the module between 46 V and 53 V at 2.65 kW, which is to say between 2.3 V and 2.65 V per cell at 0.75C. That is an extremely gentle cycle for an LTO.

And you can see that the discharge time is 45 minutes, i.e. 0.75 of an hour. Therefore, at 0.75C he is only cycling 0.75 × 0.75 = 0.56 = 56% of the capacity of the battery. So when the graph shows it as cycling between 100% SoC and 43% SoC (a difference of 57%) it seems this is not a limitation of the SP Pro inverter's reporting ability as Paul claims, but is accurate to within 1%.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Tue, 03 Apr 2018, 12:37

weber wrote:
Tue, 03 Apr 2018, 09:01
...Out by a factor of 33!
And really regardless of what's in the box this IS the problem.
No one is prepared to take a leap of faith because history shows that most tech is a gradual evolution.
And even when there is a revolution in tech, which happens rarely, the discovery is not shoved in a fringe product with little margin.

The IP is not in the ho-hum BMS/CMS system but the cap.
Where is the patent for the capacitor that is miles ahead of every large scale manufacturer in the world?

Like Iv'e said - buy the box, scrap the BMS/CMS, sell the caps - be a millionaire...
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Wed, 04 Apr 2018, 07:43

As I mentioned earlier, even a battery has some capacitance. Whirlpool forum contributor FedEx found this recent Nature paper on hybrids. See the comparison of voltage curves for constant-current charge and discharge in figures 5 and 6.

No matter whether it is a battery or a supercap, or some kind of hybrid, its capacitance is given by the slope of those low-side spikes. Specifically, the capacitance (in farads) is given by the constant current that is used (in amps), divided by that slope (in volts per second).

In this video https://youtu.be/7qSNG7nUQbQ the capacitive phase is so short you have to freeze-frame it to see that it's all over in 2 updates of the Fluke 17B multimeter. We see successive readings of 0.206 V, 1.726 V, 2.074 V, 2.076 V and the closeness of those last two readings tells us we're now in the battery phase. The Fluke 17B apparently has an update time of 0.283 s (the video is 30 frames/s). So we can see that the Kilowatt Labs device has a slope of 1.52 / 0.283 = 5.36 V/s and since the current was 3.02 A, the capacitance is 3.02/5.46 = 0.56 farads. Utterly negligible, showing that this is no kind of supercap or hybrid. It is a battery, pure and simple.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Cleanfuture » Wed, 04 Apr 2018, 13:51

A quick search on the web archive revealed how the claims of this company morphed from phantastic to outrageous. In 2015 they claimed to have a hybrid lithium ion / supercap battery with 80 to 100Wh/ kg energy density and a 500,000 life cycle rating. By 2017, this became a pure supercap storage battery with 115Wh/kg and 1 million life cycles. None of these claims are backed up with any data at all though.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Thu, 05 Apr 2018, 11:36

Skeleton Technologies claims to produce the highest performing graphene supercapacitors in the world. Their 3200 farad graphene supercap is the size of a coke can and costs AU $76. ($760 for a box of 10). It occupies 23 times the volume of Kilowatt Labs' supposed 3000 farad graphene supercap.
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