Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

How do you store and manage your electricity?
User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2621
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 19:43

Supercaps wrote:
Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 11:16
There is no dc to dc converter in series with the cell arrays. The super capacitor banks are in parallel and series configuration.
How many in each parallel group? How many in each series string? How many farads is each capacitor?
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 2987
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 22:21

I estimate about 90,000 Farads at 55 volts... That's a lot of capacitor.
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 01:33

For those interested to learn more about this super capacitor tech.....We have a live event in Doncaster in Melbourne next Wednesday, you can register here. Enthusiasts welcome. https://t.co/9SeBcDkbFl

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 01:58

Hi EV enthusiasts, A few up and coming event where you can meet me, some of our Arvio team and see some awesome new super capacitor tech are:
Today at Moora Moora with Glen Morris if you are doing the battery training. He’s a great teacher if you haven’t met him yet.
Next Wednesday at Manningham Town Hall. https://www.facebook.com/ArvioHome/post ... 4231530197
Smart energy conference in Sydney https://t.co/7a6CKhhdZA
Come and find us at Arvio, be good to put faces to names and catchup. The harshest critics and experts are welcome too.

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 02:01

There are 1200 x 3,000F super capacitors. 2.7V each. 20 in series and 30 in parallel per layer x 2 layers.

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Johny » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 07:59

That doesn't explain the sudden reading of 54 Volts (or thereabouts) when the short was removed.

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 2987
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 08:49

Supercaps wrote:
Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 02:01
There are 1200 x 3,000F super capacitors. 2.7V each. 20 in series and 30 in parallel per layer x 2 layers.
Right, now we're getting somewhere. Maxwell supercapacitors are about the size of a drink can, whereas these are the size of an 18650 cell.

Do you have a spec sheet on these particular capacitors?
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 12:58

weber wrote:
Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 16:35
It's not quite that bad... they would only be using 34% of the capacity.
Yep my bad - I realised that later.
weber wrote:
Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 17:58
You can't get the smooth almost-linear voltage versus energy relationship, that we saw in the charge/discharge video, by series/parallel switching.
True - I offed it as a plausible possibility.
Perhaps there is a cap on the output smoothing the voltage :roll: :lol:
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 13:03

Supercaps wrote:
Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 18:26
Start by reading the patent that was published yesterday.
Here's one for interest.
http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20180315 ... 076644.php
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 13:06

Halarious.

"Cap array" is right next to "battery array".

"such as an Lithium Iron Phosphate"...

And you ship these by air.
Oh dear.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 14:45

Hi Richo, let me know when you want to see the unit opened up on a work bench and see the cycle testing in person, touch and feel the capacitors in your hands. Run a column meter on them. Watch the charge and discharge tests, hold the current clamp in you own hand and make an informed decision about the outcome. Would love to meet our harshest critic face to face. Looking forward to seeing you when you are free.

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 2987
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 14:57

Supercaps - would you care to elaborate on the "Battery Array" ?
KWL Patent.JPG
KWL Patent.JPG (87.18 KiB) Viewed 1972 times
"In some embodiments, a plurality of supercapacitors are connected in series to form, an array with a predetermined VDC (voltage direct-current) output. Each supercapacitor in the array can be embedded with a battery (such as an Lithium Iron Phosphate (“LFP”) battery) of an amount equivalent to a predetermined percentage of the storage capacity of the supercapacitor."
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 17:22

Yes the patent covers this. Patents are normally written as broadly as possible to prevent copying methods by other parties. This is why the words “in some embodiments” and “can” are used. There are no lithium ion electrochemical cells in the super capacitor modules which are being used. Good to see you doing your research. Have you worked out how it’s done yet?

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 17:25

We have an engineer appointed to create a series of custom super capacitor batteries for various applications. If there are any EV enthusiasts who can see a good market for a particular package, let me know. We can build packs from 12V to 1000V.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3762
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by coulomb » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 17:38

Supercaps wrote:
Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 02:01
There are 1200 x 3,000F super capacitors. 2.7V each. 20 in series and 30 in parallel per layer x 2 layers.
So with 54 V at the terminals and a 20S configuration, each capacitor is seeing 54/20 = 2.70 V, right on their rated limit. So this assumes absolutely perfect sharing of 20 devices in series. There must be (or certainly should be) some serious electronics to ensure that sharing.

20S reduces the capacitance by 20x (i.e. the capacitance is multiplied by a factor of 1/20) . 1200/20 = 60 so they are 60P (30P in each layer); 60P increases the capacitance by 60x. So overall the capacitance is increased by (1/20) x 60 = 3x. So the total capacitance is 3000 F x 3 = 9000 F.

The energy stored in a capacitor is ½CV² = ½ x 9000 x (54²) = 13 122 000 J; divide by 3600 seconds per hour gives 3,645 Wh ~= 3.6 kWh, approximately as claimed. But that's the total energy in the capacitor, which can only be fully recovered by discharging to zero volts. Going down to only 44 V (assuming your equipment can handle that voltage range), you'll only get 1 - (44/54)² = 0.34 of this, as Weber has noted. So the usable capacity is 0.34 x 3.6 = 1.2 kWh. I think that claiming that this is a 3.5 kWh device (as per the title of this topic) is misleading. That's why we were assuming either a DC-DC converter, or a much larger capacitance.

[ Edit: = -> gives; uF -> F ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2621
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 18:49

jonescg wrote:
Fri, 16 Mar 2018, 14:50
I'm looking forward to the capacitor breakdown. One thing I did notice...

Image

:?
That's looks like a PCB-mounting capacitor with radial leads that has had the manufacturer's shrink-wrap removed and a Kilowatt Labs sticker wrapped around it. The sticker isn't quite long enough so there's bare aluminium showing at both ends. I make it 18 mm dia by 67 mm long. So it can't be more than 200 F. Possibly only 100 F. Nowhere near the claimed 3000 F.

The figure of 3000 F is apparently concocted so that when you calculate ½CV² for 60P20S at 54 V you get approximately 3550 Wh. But that assumes it discharges to zero, not 44 V.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 01:45

Just to clarify a few things. The super capacitor in the picture is one of the range of super capacitors, not the one in the 3.55kWh unit. Secondly the calculations are correct except for the micro farad typo. The missing piece of the calculations is understanding of the technique used to extract almost all of the energy from the capacitors from 54VDC down to 44Vdc when in series without a series DC to DC converter. Yes there are electronics involved. The electronics perform high speed balancing between the parallel cell groups. This is the IP of the product. You can learn about this by reading the patent. The real test is at the terminals, which can easily be shown to deliver the energy stated. The unit can be shown opened up to anyone interested in person to have no electrochemical batteries and proven with a colomb meter to be what is stated. Still haven’t had anyone from this thread come to visit. Doors are always open. Nothing to hide.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 12:29

Supercaps wrote:
Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 17:22
Have you worked out how it’s done yet?
Well I'm still going with scam :lol:
I'd have a(one) string of "supercaps" and the rest batteries.
But I would repackage them all so they looked the same.
An active cell balance to keep things happy and your done.
Supercaps wrote:
Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 14:45
Would love to meet our harshest critic face to face.
Go that right :P
Wrong state tho.

It wouldn't take me very long to find out with a dremel...
I'll let all the eggy goodness ooze out. :D
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 2987
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 14:17

Supercaps wrote:
Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 01:45
Just to clarify a few things. The super capacitor in the picture is one of the range of super capacitors, not the one in the 3.55kWh unit. Secondly the calculations are correct except for the micro farad typo. The missing piece of the calculations is understanding of the technique used to extract almost all of the energy from the capacitors from 54VDC down to 44Vdc when in series without a series DC to DC converter. Yes there are electronics involved. The electronics perform high speed balancing between the parallel cell groups. This is the IP of the product. You can learn about this by reading the patent. The real test is at the terminals, which can easily be shown to deliver the energy stated. The unit can be shown opened up to anyone interested in person to have no electrochemical batteries and proven with a colomb meter to be what is stated. Still haven’t had anyone from this thread come to visit. Doors are always open. Nothing to hide.
If you don't mind sharing some photos of what's inside the box we'd be most appreciative. Until then, West Australians like myself and Richo will have to speculate...
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 2987
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 17:12

weber wrote:
Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 15:29

* A lithium-ion capacitor (not to be confused with a lithium-ion battery) is an example of a "double layer pseudocap hybrid". But the ones shown in the facebook photos are almost certainly not Li-ion capacitors, but like the Maxwells, ELDC capacitors using activated carbon.
And that's what we appear to have here:
caps.jpg
caps.jpg (91.89 KiB) Viewed 1918 times
UN3499 - double layer capacitors. Not supercapacitors.
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Fri, 23 Mar 2018, 12:30

Supercaps is the generic term.
So they are the same thing under UN3499.

If I get a battery, put a Capacitor sticker on it, shove it in a box, seal it - how would the shipping company know they aren't caps?
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2621
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Fri, 23 Mar 2018, 20:36

@Supercaps Do the supercaps in the 3550 Wh device have 3 terminals, like the one in Fig 9 of the patent application?

One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sat, 24 Mar 2018, 08:29

No. The super capacitors in the 3.55kWh module have two terminals per capacitor. The one in the patent doesn’t have the physical terminals shown.

Supercaps
Groupie
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:32
Real Name: Arvio

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sat, 24 Mar 2018, 09:31

https://youtu.be/8MgCrdyWYoM
Charge & discharge profile curve for supercapacitor module.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2621
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Sat, 24 Mar 2018, 16:45

@Supercaps. The things you post, strangely always fall short of doing anything that would actually distinguish between a supercap and a lithium-ion battery.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

Post Reply