Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

[Richo]

try not to be too cynical

As apposed to being too naive?

Really I don't mind what people spend their money on.
Please buy some it's an awesome product.
Regardless of its contents I'm sure it will do a job.
Forget about the supercap debate - think 1/2 price 1/2 sized powerwall.
Can't afford a powerwall - then get one of these!

[jonescg]

Oh I'm just as sceptical as you are - I'm just suggesting we express our scepticism politely.

[Rusdy]

try not to be too cynical

As apposed to being too naive?

Really I don't mind what people spend their money on.
Please buy some it's an awesome product.
Regardless of its contents I'm sure it will do a job.
Forget about the supercap debate - think 1/2 price 1/2 sized powerwall.
Can't afford a powerwall - then get one of these!

That's worse lie than the supercap debate! PW2 is a dollar a watt complete with finished installation. I'm disappointed with you Richo!

What's your BSB by the way? I want to buy your awesome eBike

[Richo]

Well I'm sure a nuclear reactor is better $/watt than the power-wall but who has the millions/billions for one of those.
Due to my skepticism I'm unable to tell you what I think of the power wall.

But good on Musky for getting a product on the market.
And good on Arvio for getting a smaller cheaper similar product on the market.
Choice is always good.

Is this thread dead now?

[Richo]

Oh if you buy one (supercap module) please post some pics of it here - open.

[jonescg]

I'm looking forward to the capacitor breakdown. One thing I did notice...

Arvio questions.JPG (13.32 KiB) Viewed 3434 times

[Supercaps]

Hi EV enthusiasts. One of the tests made today. Dead short first then on to charge the super cap module.
https://youtu.be/LflfpqBTwnQ

[Johny]

When you removed the short, why did the voltage jump up to over 50 volts?

[jonescg]

Yeah I noticed that too - you had the power supply feeding the bank but the bank was shorted. Seems like a strange way to do it. Surely you could drain it, take the leads off and measure it at 0 volts. And, I'm pretty sure Ohms law states that for current to flow there needs to be a non zero voltage. Seems to raise more questions than answers

[coulomb]

Also, why did the power supply current drop from 14 A into the short circuit to some 7 A after a few seconds? It can't be because it's full, because otherwise it only stores a few tens of amp-seconds of energy (a single amp-hour is of course 3,600 amp-seconds).

I would have expected the terminal voltage to rise to about 48 V, representing a dead-flat nominal 48 V battery, and slowly rise to some 56 V, representing a fully charged nominal 48 V battery. It would take hours to fully charge at 14 or 7 A charging, if it has useful energy capacity.

As Chris Jones said above, your demonstration was quite unusual, and indeed raises more questions than answers.

[Supercaps]

Was an interesting day of testing. This was just one test to address the chemical battery question raised. As a chemical battery would not behave this way. The super cap module internal resistance of 6mOhms explains the jump to match the power supply voltage IMO. So what are the questions that this raises?

[Supercaps]

Here is the current live test for the 24VDC battery replacement for lead. Weight 8.1kg. Video is not exciting but shows the values clearly.
https://youtu.be/11qtI70RUgg

[Johny]

The super cap module internal resistance of 6mOhms explains the jump to match the power supply voltage IMO. So what are the questions that this raises?

No questions - just some annoying facts. A 6 mOhm internal resistance would result in a jump of 0.0462 volts @7.7 Amps. The jump is more easily explained by a BMS in current limit, holding off until a short circuit was removed. Sorry - it still points to LiPo cells.

[Richo]

To me a bidirectional DC/DC would explain most of that.
Remember it has electronics to produce "48V" that simulates SoC of a SLA.
It neither proves or disproves the internal use of supercaps as the main storage element.

Let me know when the eggs come out...

[whysomean]

Would any of the batteries (assuming not super capacitor inside) be allowed as carry on luggage on an international flight going through the screening?

[jonescg]

If it's more than 100 Wh? No. I don't think any battery is allowed to travel by air unless its in the cabin, and under 100 Wh.
http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/ ... eries.aspx

[Rusdy]

Hmmm... so the Arvio 3.5kWh module was 'invented' so that it can go by air for urgent customers? What a clever idea! I definitely didn't see that coming...

PS: From the ARENA funded battery test centre, logistic was one of main issue. See report here.

[Supercaps]

There is no dc to dc converter in series with the cell arrays. The super capacitor banks are in parallel and series configuration. Still waiting for someone to work out how it’s done. There are no electrochemical batteries, no dc to dc converter, the 75kg unit delivers 3.55kWh of usable energy from 44 to 54VDC. Despite a lot of posturing by some in this thread, no one seems to have solved how it is being done. . Come to Smart Energy conference in Sydney to meet out team and be part of the revolution.

[Richo]

Oh oh - I know I know - its a ZPE unit.
But selling them as a plausible "supercaps" module means you won't go "missing" by the establishment.
Awesome - Respect

[Richo]

If you consider a 20 cap's in a STATIC series/parallel arrangement giving 54V full.
To get to 44V only 18.5% of the energy is used.
So 3.55kWh would be 18.5% which the whole pack would need to be 19.17kWh of Supercaps!
This would make it even LESS plausible.

I remember some of the early PFC LED drivers by Magnachip used a novel switching of the LED's to achieve cc.
If a similar approach was used but with caps it would use more of the available energy.
Technically you could get ~98% out of them.

But it still wouldn't make the raw supercap 6% the cost of any other cap on the market.
You know golden goose and all that....

[weber]

If you consider a 20 cap's in a STATIC series/parallel arrangement giving 54V full.
To get to 44V only 18.5% of the energy is used.
So 3.55kWh would be 18.5% which the whole pack would need to be 19.17kWh of Supercaps!
This would make it even LESS plausible.

It's not quite that bad. The energy in a capacitor is proportional to the square of the voltage. 44²/54² = 66%, so they would only be using 34% of the capacity. But yes, if there is no DC-DC then it is less plausible, by a factor of 3.

Everything we've seen and been told so far, points to them not being supercapacitors, and makes them more likely to be lithium-ion battery cells.

[weber]

Still waiting for someone to work out how it’s done. There are no electrochemical batteries, no dc to dc converter, the 75kg unit delivers 3.55kWh of usable energy from 44 to 54VDC. Despite a lot of posturing by some in this thread, no one seems to have solved how it is being done.

As far as I'm concerned, we've totally solved how it's being done. Namely, by using lithium-ion electrochemical cells. It's up to you to prove otherwise.

We've described several ways you could do that. You've done none of them.

[Johny]

I totally missed that this was a riddle/challenge. If there is no DC/DC and it REALLY is super caps then it follows that it is switching series/parallel modes to maintain voltage. The price still doesn't pass the reasonableness test.

[weber]

I totally missed that this was a riddle/challenge. If there is no DC/DC and it REALLY is super caps then it follows that it is switching series/parallel modes to maintain voltage. The price still doesn't pass the reasonableness test.

You can't get the smooth almost-linear voltage versus energy relationship, that we saw in the charge/discharge video, by series/parallel switching. And if it was supercaps, it wouldn't be only the price that's unreasonable. It would also be the weight and volume, by factors of 10 or more.

[Supercaps]

Start by reading the patent that was published yesterday. Just for clarification there is no in series dc to dc conversion and no electrochemical cells despite Richo’s determined effort. We fly these units on planes regularly at 40 x the allowable Wh limit of lithium ion electrochemical batteries. There is no riddle. No trick. Always open to a visit at our business from anyone who is curious about how it’s done, and yes you can see inside it. Over 100 systems are being installed over the coming months. Many of them will be on line for all to see.