PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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coulomb
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Re: PIP-4048MS

Post by coulomb » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 08:50

Tejota wrote:
Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 04:07
[ Many photos... ]
Thanks for the photos, Tejota.

Some notes:
  • The main (U1) firmware is 72.00. I'm guessing that this is effectively "72.100", hence later than 72.70. I wonder what "parallel compatibility group" it will belong to. [ Edit: we now that 72.00/10/20 is separate and later than 72.60/70/90. ]
  • The SCC firmware is up to 04.12. I wonder what updates are in there, if any.
  • New parameter Ev (34), is presumably the maximum tolerated battery voltage before you get an error. Nice to see that adjustable.
  • There is another new parameter (39), with no name at the left, and the present value is AdS. Do you know what this parameter is for? Did the inverter come with an up to date paper manual? [ Edit: Duh. Not new parameters. They are described in the 5048 manual, as Weber reminds me below. ]
  • It's good to see the fans installed right way around (blowing hot air upwards) (thanks, @PaulVK!)
  • The capacitors have changed from the originals with the gold colour; obviously the original 63 V models would not do.
  • The IGBTs seem to be different part numbers, but that doesn't mean much.
coulomb wrote:
Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 06:23
Does anyone have first hand experience of this?
Yes. I lost 4 (four) pip4048ms on cluster. Full disaster. I dont know what happened....
Ouch!
Working conditions: 1 pip4048 (master) manufactured August 16 (no heatsink on top) + 3 Axpert 5048 (4kW) (slaves) manufactured Mars 2014 (heatsink on top).
I assume that the slaves would have been Axpert 4048s, being 4 years old now.
At midday global solar production about 9 kW 160A (40+40+40+40 more less) to battery...
So: battery voltage might have been near its highest.
A little cloud effect.... not important.
Well, it might be. Pips/Axperts tend to overshoot the desired battery voltage by sometimes over a volt for several seconds.
I only have dissambled one shorted slave: 12 mosfets shorted, 2 mosfets fifty fifty, and 2 mosfets correct. Buck IGBT (2) shorted !!!
Interesting about the buck IGBTs being shorted. That seems to indicate that there was a surge that travelled from the inverter circuit back to the battery circuit. So maybe something happened to the inverter of this slave, surge blow up MOSFETs at the DC side; the leads of the failed MOSFETs all fused open circuit (hence it was able to start up and show an error 09), and when the battery terminal voltage suddenly increased, the inductive kick-back sent a spike of voltage to the other three battery terminals, killing all their DC side MOSFETs (and possibly more).
No visual destructive effects.
Does this refer to the buck MOSFETs only, or to all? My theory above relies on open circuited but failed MOSFETs, which usually means the leads are blown, a very visual effect. You did say this was a "shorted slave", so I'm guessing you means none of the MOSFETs or IGBTs had visible failures. In that case, I really can't explain why the buck IGBTs blew. Is it possible that the two failed IGBTs were not the buck devices (Q31, Q32) but instead were two of the high-side DC-DC IGBTs? (See my Power Topology post.)
Any explanation of this disaster ?? Mosfets and capacitor were original on failed units.
Summers in north east Spain are about 2°C higher than Brisbane Australia, and we've had inverters fail after a few years when the capacitors are factory originals. The factory capacitors are rated for only 2000 hours at 105°C, so Spanish summers would take their toll. So that's my guess.
Ps: Yes I bought an axpert 5048 pf1 64V until I repair failed units if I can.
If you don't already have one, consider buying a desoldering station; it will be very useful for repairing 4 failed units. Weber bought one a while ago, and it's been wonderful for removing those endless MOSFETs, and sucking out solder from capacitor holes. Good luck, and don't forget to check out all those gate driver parts as well.

[ Edit: Added ", if any" to "I wonder what updates are in there". ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 09:13

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 08:50
[*] The SCC firmware is up to 04.12. I wonder what updates are in there.
Allowing it to charge up to 64 V I presume.
[*] New parameter Ev (34), is presumably the maximum tolerated battery voltage before you get an error. Nice to see that adjustable.
[*] There is another new parameter (39), with no name at the left, and the present value is AdS. Do you know what this parameter is for? Did the inverter come with an up to date paper manual?
RTFM (the second link in our index post) pages 23 and 24. Ev is equalisation voltage and AdS is activation disabled.
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Re: PIP-4048MS

Post by Tejota » Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 01:35

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 08:50
I assume that the slaves would have been Axpert 4048s, being 4 years old now.
Yes, the same as pip4048 old version, heatsink on top. Manufactured on Mars 2014 but in service from December 2016 (one year and two months working ). PIP4048 new version without heatsing on top (master) was working with slaves from December 2016 too.
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 08:50
So: battery voltage might have been near its highest.
Not.... batt voltage was:
Image


Take a look to loadwatts disaster day:

Image

CONG = freezer 2HP
REF: fridge 1HP

I think problem was when stopped freezer = Overvoltage in AC back to inverters.
coulomb wrote:
Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 08:50
If you don't already have one, consider buying a desoldering station; it will be very useful for repairing 4 failed units. Weber bought one a while ago, and it's been wonderful for removing those endless MOSFETs, and sucking out solder from capacitor holes. Good luck, and don't forget to check out all those gate driver parts as well.
Yes, I have got one DESOLD STATION.
Well, second slave has got too many MOSFET at DC SIDE shorted like the first slave. Not open circuit, only shorted.
Q32 shorted (BUCK MOSFET) Q31 (BUCK MOSFET) not shorted. The same as first slave.
D13 (BUCK DIODE) has got destructive visual effect. Not much but appreciable

Image


Image

IGBT Q27 is shorted in second slave. At first slave IGBTs are supposedly correct.

Next days desoldering these parts on third slave and master. But IMO problem was overvoltage on freezer stop contacts relay travelling to PIPs AC LOAD. If Q31 or Q32 are shorted with D13 and some IGBT, too many MOSFETs at DC 48v will be shorted.

I could be wrong but...

Do you put the same ref parts number failed (D13, Q31, Q32 and IGBTs Q27 etc) ??
Original parts are:
D13 APT30DQ60BC
Q31-Q32 W45NM60
Q27-Q30 GP4063D

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 09:04

I have a number of AC voltage protection varistors here I am thinking I might put a bunch on the AC downstream of the inverters.
I think we need to keep the semiconductors and capacitors cool in the pips so fitting 120mm fans to the grills at the sides and inserting the temperature probe of one of the cheap on line digital controllers into the top of the 240v side heatsink (after putting heatshrink around it) is the way to go.
I have done it and set the fans to come on at 42c then go off at 36c the highest I have seen on the 240v heatsink was 46c with the ambient temp about 10c below.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 10:47

Progress with the remote LCD display have most of the parameters of the pip displayed on the 64x128 Graphic LCD.

display1.png
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 18:00

Now the display of the second parallel inverter with the QPGSn command
Image


So that is two of the commands now to get the rest working and to enable changes to settings with infrared remote control.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 06:24

paulvk wrote:
Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 09:04
I think we need to keep the semiconductors and capacitors cool in the pips so fitting 120mm fans...
I note that firmware 73.00 runs the existing fans much more aggressively (by a factor of 5/3) when solar charging, though no different when running a large load in battery mode. I believe that this is another change we can thank you for suggesting to the manufacturer; thanks, @Paulvk!

I was initially puzzled at why the fans don't also work harder with a high inverter load. But then I realised that this way, the extra noise would mostly be during the day, when solar charging. The exception to this would be AC charging at night to take advantage of an off-peak power tariff. So most of the extra noise will be during the day when people are usually not sleeping, and when ambient temperature would be highest. I haven't checked to see if the maximum temperature is higher at night than during the day. They do now run the fans at a minimum of 30% speed all the time in 73.00; this is quite quiet and should help keep the night time internal temperatures low. Overall, the new fan control code seems like a good compromise between electronics lifetime and fan noise.
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Re: PIP-4048MS

Post by coulomb » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 06:41

Tejota wrote:
Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 01:35
CONG = freezer 2HP
REF: fridge 1HP

I think problem was when stopped freezer = Overvoltage in AC back to inverters.
Well, 2 HP is nearly 1500 W, so that's quite a large freezer, perhaps ten times the size of a domestic freezer, if I'm not confused. An induction motor draws roughly 7x its continuous power for a fraction of a second when starting up; that's of the order of 10 kW. So starting one or both motors at the same time will be a significant load.

Such a large motor might have a kick like a mule when it turns off, so yes, it could well be due to inductive kickback when the freezer stops. The PIPs do have several surge protectors, but larger ones nearer the loads might be a good idea for this type of load.

I wonder if perhaps one was starting when the other was switching off; this would be a voltage spike while the inverters' IGBTs would be working quite hard. Such a coincidence would be quite rare, of course, but after years of continuous running, it's bound to happen occasionally. [ Edit: it doesn't look like the fridge was "due" to come on in this case, but perhaps the fridge was opened and came on "early". ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by rinaldoparaipan » Sat, 17 Mar 2018, 03:17

I have discovered a strange think at Effekta AXM 4048:When the inverter is working in by-pass mode, with the AC OUT fuse disconnected(so is no output consumption) the inverter takes 1.2-1.5 Amps from the grid.
I checked with different measuring instruments (AC clapmeter, Am meter in series with live AC input wire, a noninvasive ACS sensor with Arduino board) and the result is the same.
There is no battery charging current (cheked with clapmeter)-the inverter is set on Only SOlar charging mode.
The result of measurements was confirmed by two friends of mine, at an MPP Solar inverter and another Effekta.
When the relay switch to battery mode, there is no more grid consumption.
Would you please check your inverters if they have the same behavior?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 17 Mar 2018, 07:03

Hi rinaldoparaipan,

I know that seems like there is about 300 watts going to waste. But if so, the 300 watts of heat would be hard to hide. This is almost certainly mostly reactive power (measured in volt-amps not watts) that is simply charging and discharging a capacitor 100 times a second. Although I'm guessing that maybe 50 watts is actually being wasted as heat.

To find out what is really going on, you need to use a true-RMS power meter that simultaneously samples both voltage and current many times per cycle, or some other instrument like an oscilloscope, that allows you to take into account the relative phase of the voltage and current waveforms. Simply measuring the voltage and current separately, and multiplying them together, does not give the true power.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by rinaldoparaipan » Sat, 17 Mar 2018, 15:40

Yes, I supposed is reactive power and I know that 300W transformed in heat inside inverter's volume should give a high temperature.
The problem is that a lot of electronic power meters installed in Romania are measuring a part of reactive power, even in single-phase grid connection.
You confirmed my assumption.Thanks

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by sinux » Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 18:39

Hi @@weber
I've installed the firmware 73.00a on my inverter. Works great! Thanks for all the time spent on this!
I installed it because my batteries were never fully charged with the old firmware (early exit of absorb stage).

I'd like to report a bug/regression :
From version 72.70c beta, you've "improved the accuracy of the battery charge and discharge current readings, particularly for low currents, as displayed on the LCD, and as given in response to the QPIGS and QPGS serial commands"

I've built a small data logger / coulomb counter that runs on raspberry pi. And since the upgrade, my "total wh in" don't match "total wh out" any more (within reasonable margins).

It looks like you've reduced the amount of amps reported by the inverter for battery charging current by 1 amp?

At first glance it seems reasonable to do that because the new figure becomes finally the real battery current, in most cases (see below).

The previous battery current reported (before the upgrade) was actually "battery charge or discharge current" + "self consumption".
This is why the inverter would always report 1 amp even when the battery was in float and full.

I don't know exactly why, but there's an exception to this case, when in bypass mode and charging with AC.
In this state, the battery charging current doesn't include self consumption (or maybe more logically the self consumption is much less than the average 50W in solar charging mode with inverter on).

This has two unintended consequences with the new firmware :
1. The charging/discharging current reported is wrong (which is why my raspberry pi program is wrong)
2. The charger quits charging way too early when charging with 2amps, and quits slightly too early when charging with 10amps.

You should be able to replicate the problem by putting the inverter in bypass mode, AC charging at 2 amps, absorb time 180min. It never stays in absorb mode that long. (see attached picture - last night charging at 10 amps, absorb should be 180min - top red is AC charging)

As I've got a small system (4x 100Ah gel batteries) this is a bit of a problem for me.
Any advice?
Attachments
Capture.PNG
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by goldam » Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 22:35

Hello guys,

I bought the PIP-4048GE inverter. I plan to use it on-grid. It may supply 3/4 of my home appliances, except the owen and 3-phase devices.
The grounding system in my home is TN-C network (combined PEN conductor). Due to this, the AC-N wire on input of inverter is shorted to AC-N on output of inverter. I thought, that this would'n be the problem. Because when inverter is in bypass mode, the input is connected directly to output,
and when inverter is in battery mode, the output is isolated form input (transformer).
But I was wrong.

When I connect the new inverter to AC grid only (no battery, no PV, no load), the inverter starts (display on, beeps).
I apply some testing load (heater). Working fine.
After I connect the inverter to home TN-C network (input AC-N connected to output AC-N) (no battery, no PV).
The inverter didn´t start. When I disconnect the load, the inverter didn´t start.
When I connect the battery the inverter starts and working fine with test load.
But now without battery, it can´t start (no display, no beeps).

Could someone help me, with 2 questions.
Why the AC-N input wire couldn't be connected to AC-N output wire?
What have been damaged? Some auxiliary supply, used only when battery is disconnected?

Before I use the AXPERT KS 24V 2400W inverter with the same configuration for 2 years without problem.

Thank you

Sorry for my english :oops:

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 08:00

goldam wrote:
Wed, 21 Mar 2018, 22:35
Hello guys,
Welcome, Goldam.
Why the AC-N input wire couldn't be connected to AC-N output wire?
I don't think that was a problem.
What have been damaged? Some auxiliary supply, used only when battery is disconnected?

Before I use the AXPERT KS 24V 2400W inverter with the same configuration for 2 years without problem.
The PIP-5048GE is advertised as having "batteryless operation support". I can't find the same information for PIP-4048GE. Is it supposed to operate batteryless? Granted, you saw it working batteryless at one point. Did you perhaps have PV connected at that point, and it was day time? It's unclear to me how PV could power the processor and LCD, but I can't say it's impossible.

The 2400 W model will likely have completely different behaviour with no battery connected. So don't be concerned that the GE model doesn't act the same as the 2400 W model. My guess is that nothing has been damaged.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by goldam » Thu, 22 Mar 2018, 19:00

Edit: arrgh. Coulomb here. Looks like I edited instead of quoted this post. Sigh. Thanks for spotting this, Weber.

So the below is a combination of his original post and my reply. Most, probably all, of Goldam's original post is contained in the quotes.

My apologies, Goldam.
goldam wrote: [ Goldam's original post ]
Yes, PIP-4048GE support batteryless operation. It is written in manual (the manual is same as manual for PIP-5048GE,
differ only in powerfactor - PF 0.8).
[ Coulomb's reply ]
The word "batteryless" doesn't appear in the PIP-4048GE manual that I found. I now see that there is a warning for when the battery is disconnected ("BP").
And also, I see inverter working without battery and without PV connected - first run with testing load.
All tests, that I have done, were without PV connected.
Yes, you were quite clear on that. Somehow I managed to overlook that. Sigh.
But for PIP-4048GE it is. Because now the inverter don't start without battery connected.
So something must be damaged, something related to batteryless operation.
Presumably, they have re-introduced the utility power supply, which was present in 2013 PIP-4048MS models, and disappeared soon after. You won't be able to check if you have these parts with these designators without opening the case, which will void your warranty.

It would seem that either this power supply has failed. I can't think of any way that your TN-C earthing system caused this problem. So you should ask your supplier why the unit has suddenly stopped performing per specifications. It seems that you should get a replacement under warranty.
When you gathering the information about PIP-4048MS, did you try to contact somebody in voltronicPower (web contact)?
I've not attempted to contact them about schematics or the like. I have repeatedly attempted to contact them about the charge bugs, but have never received a reply.
I have batteries, so I dont need batteryless operation, but I´m scared to connect inverter to battery and PV with connection between N clamps.
I don't understand what you mean by "N clamps".
Do you have some experience with shorting the inverter output?
By the manual, inverter have short circuit protection, but is it true? I have installed the circuit breaker on output, but with reponse time
of CB, this only protect the wires, not MOSFET.
I've certainly never deliberately shorted the output; that would be tempting fate way too much.

There is a low-valued inductor (L4) between the IGBTs (the main 230 V inverter) and the load, so the current would not rise to dangerous levels instantly. However, my feeling is that it would take tens or hundreds of microseconds for the current to become a danger to the IGBTs, and the inverter firmware protection appears to work at 100 Hz (10 ms). There may well be hardware protection that operates much faster than this; I have not had need to trace this so far. There is a section of the circuit, near the IGBT drivers, whose purpose remains a complete mystery to me; these may be part of the hardware short circuit protection.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Sat, 24 Mar 2018, 16:36

I have two 1Hp pumps running off my inverter but they do not have start capacitors only run capacitors more than a year 4 times a day no problems.

Now an update on LCD remote control:
I have the infrared remote working and any old remote can be used it learns the buttons.
regards Paul

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 24 Mar 2018, 21:44

sinux wrote:
Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 18:39
Hi @weber
I've installed the firmware 73.00a on my inverter. Works great! Thanks for all the time spent on this!
I installed it because my batteries were never fully charged with the old firmware (early exit of absorb stage).
Thanks for the kind words. I note that I didn't have much to do with finding and fixing the premature float bug. That was coulomb. But I am responsibile for the changes to current reporting that you are having a problem with.
I'd like to report a bug/regression :
From version 72.70c beta, you've "improved the accuracy of the battery charge and discharge current readings, particularly for low currents, as displayed on the LCD, and as given in response to the QPIGS and QPGS serial commands"

I've built a small data logger / coulomb counter that runs on raspberry pi. And since the upgrade, my "total wh in" don't match "total wh out" any more (within reasonable margins).
Thank you for such a detailed report. So that's Wh in and out of the battery? Particularly with a lead-acid battery, I'd expect Wh in to be 5% to 15% greater than Wh out. Also, the resolution of current measurement by the PIP is only 1 amp. Not really good enough for coulomb counting. How much do they differ, and in what direction?
It looks like you've reduced the amount of amps reported by the inverter for battery charging current by 1 amp?
That is correct. And when the battery is not being charged, we've also increased the amount of amps reported by the inverter for battery discharging current by 1 amp.

From the Dynamic Current Control manual:

"The inverter does not have a current shunt, or any other means of measuring battery current. The standard inverter firmware estimates battery current by measuring AC power and applying a simple efficiency scale factor for inverting (100/108), and another for AC charging (119/128). It completely ignores the no-load and no-charge losses."

"We improve the accuracy of low readings by the simple expedient of subtracting 1 amp from the charge current reading if it wasn't already zero, otherwise adding 1 amp to the discharge current reading."
At first glance it seems reasonable to do that because the new figure becomes finally the real battery current, in most cases (see below).
Thanks for confirming that.
The previous battery current reported (before the upgrade) was actually "battery charge or discharge current" + "self consumption".
This is why the inverter would always report 1 amp even when the battery was in float and full.
Right.
I don't know exactly why, but there's an exception to this case, when in bypass mode and charging with AC.
In this state, the battery charging current doesn't include self consumption (or maybe more logically the self consumption is much less than the average 50W in solar charging mode with inverter on).
I think we tested it with AC charging and found approximately 50 W losses there too. But we will check this.
This has two unintended consequences with the new firmware :
1. The charging/discharging current reported is wrong (which is why my raspberry pi program is wrong)
2. The charger quits charging way too early when charging with 2amps, and quits slightly too early when charging with 10amps.

You should be able to replicate the problem by putting the inverter in bypass mode, AC charging at 2 amps, absorb time 180min. It never stays in absorb mode that long. (see attached picture - last night charging at 10 amps, absorb should be 180min - top red is AC charging)

As I've got a small system (4x 100Ah gel batteries) this is a bit of a problem for me.
Any advice?
I can see that would be a problem. We will investigate, and we may produce a version 73.00b to fix the problem.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 25 Mar 2018, 07:02

sinux wrote:
Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 18:39
I don't know exactly why, but there's an exception to this case, when in bypass mode and charging with AC.
In this state, the battery charging current doesn't include self consumption (or maybe more logically the self consumption is much less than the average 50W in solar charging mode with inverter on).
Sinux, I see that you are from South Africa. For whatever reason, there seem to be a lot of older models in use there, which probably have the AC/utility power supply still fitted. That might explain why at least some of the inverter losses transfer to the AC input instead of the battery, when AC charging. The AC power supply, if present, would take over powering the processor, LC Display, relays, gate drivers, and other electronics. Later models omit this power supply altogether, so these losses stay with the battery.

Does your inverter have the black heat-sink on top, like this one?
Top heatsink.jpg
Top heatsink.jpg (15.41 KiB) Viewed 1245 times
[ Edit: I no longer believe that the presence or absence of the utility power supply could explain what appears to be a difference in required correction depending on whether the PIP is in battery or line (bypass) modes. The power that this power supply handles is likely to be much less than 50 W, and in any case it would be present while the AC input is present, i.e. in both battery and line modes. ]

Don't go to any trouble, but perhaps you remember if it is possible to power up your inverter without the battery connected, but AC input present?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by rezydent » Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 04:12

For me transistors broke down and I exchanged them on CSD19535KCS and IRFB3077PbF
Whether exist possibility of amending of stretching charging the battery to 64 VDC?
Do you know how it would be possible to do it?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 15:06

We've just updated the 73.00a patched firmware to "release" status, here:
viewtopic.php?p=66664#p66664
The only thing we've changed is the version letter that indicates it's now a release version.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 16:30

rezydent wrote:
Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 04:12
For me transistors broke down and I exchanged them on CSD19535KCS and IRFB3077PbF
Whether exist possibility of amending of stretching charging the battery to 64 VDC?
Do you know how it would be possible to do it?
Hi rezydent. No, it is not possible to increase the charging voltage to 64 volts merely by a firmware change, because the capacitors, MOSFETs and IGBTs are already operating close to their rated voltages. This includes the high-voltage DC bus capacitors which have a 500 V rating and would be operating at 512 V if the battery was at 64 V, due to the 8:1 ratio of the DC-DC converter stage.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 16:48

sinux wrote:
Tue, 20 Mar 2018, 18:39
I don't know exactly why, but there's an exception to this case, when in bypass mode and charging with AC.
In this state, the battery charging current doesn't include self consumption (or maybe more logically the self consumption is much less than the average 50W in solar charging mode with inverter on).
There are two current sensors in the PIPs. One is a LEM branded Hall effect sensor, that appears to be at the output of the DC-AC inverter. It seems to be a DC sensor so that it can detect excessive DC in the AC output (there is a fault code for this condition). The other current sensor is a current transformer, apparently measuring load (AC output) current. So the battery current is inferred, not measured directly.

When inverting, the battery current is inferred from the inverter load power less any solar charging power, so the losses are not counted, and are supplied by the battery.
When AC charging, the battery current is inferred from the AC charger (inverter working in reverse), and counts losses as if they go into the battery, but they don't.

In both cases, the current into the battery is actually about one amp less than the PIP indicates, hence Weber's corrections. On my PIP, the battery current corresponds well with the actual measured battery current after these corrections.

Note that the changes are only to displayed or reported values, so charging, including the time spent in absorb mode, should not be affected.

I've retracted my theory about the presence of the utility power supply possibly causing different results to be reported by the older models.
This has two unintended consequences with the new firmware :
1. The charging/discharging current reported is wrong (which is why my raspberry pi program is wrong)
As indicated above, I don't see why it would be worse with the corrections. If it really is happening, you could perhaps take into consideration that the PIP is in bypass mode, and uncorrect the correction. But it still would not be nearly accurate enough for coulomb counting.
2. The charger quits charging way too early when charging with 2amps, and quits slightly too early when charging with 10amps.

You should be able to replicate the problem by putting the inverter in bypass mode, AC charging at 2 amps, absorb time 180min. It never stays in absorb mode that long. (see attached picture - last night charging at 10 amps, absorb should be 180min - top red is AC charging)
I tried this, and as expected when the current limit was 2 A, the reported current was either 0 or 1 A. The charger remained in bulk/absorb mode, as indicated by the flashing CHG LED. So I can't replicate your problem. I don't understand why you seem to imply that the problem would be seen quicker with the current limit at 2 A compared to 10 A. [ Edit: my testing was with only one machine turned on; if I had both machines turned on, I now believe I would have replicated your problem. See this discussion of the two amp per active paralleled machine threshold. ]

Is it possible that your Raspberry pi software is assuming that absorb mode ends as soon as the reported current is zero?
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by sinux » Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 20:16

weber wrote:
Sat, 24 Mar 2018, 21:44
Thanks for the kind words. I note that I didn't have much to do with finding and fixing the premature float bug. That was coulomb. But I am responsibile for the changes to current reporting that you are having a problem with.
Sorry I forgot to mention Coulomb! Thanks to all! and thanks for the kind reply.

I don't quite know where to start...
Yes I'm in South Africa, my model was manufactured in 08.2015. It doesn't have the top black bar (see pictures attached).

I'm mostly happy with the new display of the battery current it's much more realistic (although I would say a tad too pessimistic - full sunshine with load at 50% solar output, battery floating, it often displays -1Amp for a brief moment - the battery voltage doesn't change so I guess it's just rounding).

What bugs me most, is that the battery amps reported by QPIGS is now changed. For continuity/compatibility reasons it would have been nice to keep it consistent. I understand that you want it this way for dynamic current control. Wouldn't it be possible though to detect the use of dynamic current control function and only change the response to QPIGS if it's in use?

If it's not possible, I'll change my software. Just trying to think about other people who also have developed programs like that.

I'm all too well aware that the battery current resolution is insufficient for coulomb counting. However, this only affects when charging with AC (at night in my case). During the day, the solar power reported is accurate enough and I use those values. All I'm trying to do is have a general idea of the state of the battery during the day (the counter gets reset every night when the battery is full).

I was also expecting about 10% more Wh in than Wh out. But that's not the result I'm getting...
But that's a different matter, maybe we can chat about coulomb counting using only data provided by qpigs later.
Since the firmware update there's always more Wh out than Wh in (but that's because self-consumption is now remove from Wh in)

(this is to reply to Coulomb above) Now regarding the charging current on AC, I don't have the tools to measure it directly. I did a small experiment using my utility prepaid electricity meter (the assumption is that it's accurate...) :
Starting conditions : inverter in bypass mode, solar panels disconnected, charging with AC at 2amps.

Start at 09:23 am, the meter indicates 42.50 kWh remaining
The data logger indicates that I've used 0.978 kWh already that day (this value is the sum of all AC output power from Qpigs command times delta T)
Bat voltage 51.9V (remains constant during the test)
Stop at 11:10 am, the meter indicates 42.00 kWh remaining
The data logger indicates that I've used 1.223 kWh that day

This means that in 1.78h I've used 0.5kWh from the utility. Out of which 0.245kWh (1.223-0.978) were household consumption.

This leaves 255Wh for charging and self consumption (500-245).
If the battery is charging at 2amps this is 185Wh (51.9*2*1.78) and that means self consumption was 70Wh that's 39W (70/1.78)
Which is expected.
To me that means that when you charge the battery at 2Amps with AC, this is the actual current that goes into the battery ! Somehow the charger requests more power to compensate for self-consumption.
As you state during that time the current reported varies between 0 and 1 A. Which is wrong (if I didn't make a mistake above :D ).
See the plots attached.

I hope this clarifies the problem.
Thanks for taking the time to help!

PS: I don't seem to be able to attach pictures anymore...

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by sinux » Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 20:21

Then I'll link the picture :





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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by sinux » Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 22:26

Sorry I forgot to reply to some of your questions :
coulomb wrote:
Sun, 25 Mar 2018, 07:02
Don't go to any trouble, but perhaps you remember if it is possible to power up your inverter without the battery connected, but AC input present?
No It's not possible to power my inverter without the battery connected.
coulomb wrote:
Mon, 26 Mar 2018, 16:48
Is it possible that your Raspberry pi software is assuming that absorb mode ends as soon as the reported current is zero?
My raspberry software doesn't assume anything in this way (it's not that clever). I just manually look at when the battery voltage reaches 57.6V.
That's my start of absorb. And then when voltage drops to 54.4V that's the stop of absorb, if I'm not mistaken.
The setting in the inverter is set to 180min (by me, just to test it).
But the measured absorb time as described above is always shorter.

For example see last night's charging at 10 Amps from AC (absorb timer set at 180min).


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