PIP-4048MS inverter

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cristof
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by cristof » Sun, 28 Jan 2018, 04:04

Hi everybody,
first please apologize for my poor english. (I al French)
I have, since december 2017 a MPP solar inverter. It's a 5.5KW MPI serie . This model have two MPPT input (hight voltage MPPT (range 120 to 450 VDC), it's the same as Voltronic InfiniSolar E 5.5KW. I have Solar Power as Software.
As I can't find any forum for it, I post in this one.
One of the MPPT input is dedicated to a Micro hydro turbine with permanant magnet alternator. it's a 3 phase generator, and I use a 3 phase rectifier to convert to DC.
Many people witch are using permanant magnet generator use solar MPPT controler for battery charging.
When I have received the hybrid inverter, it was imposible to connect the software. I was able to send few commands with CommAssistant.exe. After contact with MPP Solar support team, they had to remote control the unit and have changed the serial number with commassistant.Now I can connect the Software.
Now I have a new probleme, I did not saw it before. There is a parameter, I can't change it as I need "factory password", this parameter is "Maximum feed-in grid power" and it's set to 100W. Doest it mean that I can't feed more than 100W into the grid ?
I have also a probleme with the Hydro turbine . The turbine is set to provide around 350W, when I connect 350w bulb, it's working and I can read in 2 multimeter 220W / 1,6A.
But when I connect to hybrid inverter MPPT input,it show only around 100W in the software (PV 1 input power), and turbine increase speed as if she was connected to a small load. I have ordered a few 470uf/450V capacitor, may be the mppt input is disturb with non filtering AC
Does anybody can help me ?
Merci à tous

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Sun, 28 Jan 2018, 18:19

6mdx wrote:
Sat, 27 Jan 2018, 07:26
Has anyone tried a bluetooth or wifi dongle to connect the pip to pc?
Getting sick of goind down stairs to satisfy curiousity
Not happy that the remote will do it all for me and messy to get the leads where i want it.

Cheers Robert
There is the HLK-RM04 RS232 to TCPIP board which gives a wireless access point that you can connect to, you then install a virtual RS232 port on your PC

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 28 Jan 2018, 18:58

cristof wrote:
Sun, 28 Jan 2018, 04:04
I have, since december 2017 a MPP solar inverter. It's a 5.5KW MPI serie . This model have two MPPT input (hight voltage MPPT (range 120 to 450 VDC), it's the same as Voltronic InfiniSolar E 5.5KW. I have Solar Power as Software.
That's rather different to the inverters discussed here: grid interactive, dual MPPT, and high voltage MPPT.
Now I have a new probleme, I did not saw it before. There is a parameter, I can't change it as I need "factory password", this parameter is "Maximum feed-in grid power" and it's set to 100W. Doest it mean that I can't feed more than 100W into the grid ?
You may be able to get the factory password here: http://powerforum.co.za/topic/326-infin ... -password/
But they also warn that using the factory password voids warranty.
I have also a probleme with the Hydro turbine . The turbine is set to provide around 350W, when I connect 350w bulb, it's working and I can read in 2 multimeter 220W / 1,6A.
But when I connect to hybrid inverter MPPT input,it show only around 100W in the software (PV 1 input power), and turbine increase speed as if she was connected to a small load. I have ordered a few 470uf/450V capacitor, may be the mppt input is disturb with non filtering AC
I don't expect that the filter capacitors will make much difference; there is only about 6% ripple on rectified three-phase. However, 220 W @ 1.6 A is about 138 V, which is near the low end of the MPPT range. Maybe the slight extra voltage from the filter capacitors will help get more power into the MPPT charge controller. But it may be that the design of the charge controller is just not suitable for wind turbines.
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by al76 » Mon, 29 Jan 2018, 09:24

Hi Anyone,
I have a problem with my pip4048ms. The solar charging doesn't seem to activate until late morning and full sun. I can hear a relay clicking every few seconds.
My setup is offgrid with 240aH AGM Ritar. Pip is approx 13months old. Firmware versions 72.70 and 04.12 if thats helpful
Solar is 2 strings of 3 x 185w panels.
This morning the charging didn't start until 11:45am when the sun finally came out.
Yesterday it was after 1pm before charging started.
Any ideas how to resolve this?
Regards
Alan

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 29 Jan 2018, 10:14

Hi Alan,

Thanks for giving complete details of your system, both hardware and firmware, including batteries and solar panels. That makes it much easier to help folks with problems.

185 W panels are almost certainly 72-cell panels. Can you count 6 cells by 12 cells on each panel? If so, you need to rewire your PV array as 3 strings, with each string having only 2 panels in series.

The problem is occurring because your PV array is producing too high a voltage when the panels are cool. As the air warms up and the panels get more sun on them their temperature increases. This causes their voltage to drop. Eventually the voltage is low enough to be safe for the inverter. The inverter can't tolerate more than 145 V from the PV array.

Please let us know if this solves your problem.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 29 Jan 2018, 12:27

Coulomb is my hero. :D

We have been working on porting all our patches to version 73.00. One test-reflash last Friday properly bricked one of my inverters! We'd had crashes before, while testing our patches, but the bootstrap-loader had always worked and allowed us to recover. This time, none of the things Coulomb previously wrote about, for recovering from apparent brickings, worked. And in fact we no longer expected them to work, thanks to Voltronic trying to protect themselves from the Chinese clone makers (understandably).

But Coulomb read an old version of the bootstrap-loader code and determined that there should be a 3.5 second window after a restart, before it hit our bad code and crashed. Then we determined, by sniffing the output of the reflash tool, running on the laptop, that there was a 12 second delay before the reflash tool sent its first command to the inverter. And it would retry every 2 seconds after that (for 10 tries). So we tried delaying powering up the inverter, after starting a reflash, and it worked! Hoorah!

Coulomb has now written up the new method, here:
If you think your inverter is bricked

This could be a major breakthrough for anyone with a PIP/Axpert that they think was bricked during a reflash. Give it another try with this method!
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by al76 » Mon, 29 Jan 2018, 19:15

weber wrote:
Mon, 29 Jan 2018, 10:14
185 W panels are almost certainly 72-cell panels. Can you count 6 cells by 12 cells on each panel? If so, you need to rewire your PV array as 3 strings, with each string having only 2 panels in series.
Yes they are 72 cell panels. The OCV is 44.3v.
weber wrote:
Mon, 29 Jan 2018, 10:14
The problem is occurring because your PV array is producing too high a voltage when the panels are cool. As the air warms up and the panels get more sun on them their temperature increases. This causes their voltage to drop. Eventually the voltage is low enough to be safe for the inverter. The inverter can't tolerate more than 145 V from the PV array.

Please let us know if this solves your problem.
Thanks for this response. This sure does make a lot of sense and takes a load of my mind.
Will I need to consider cable size with more amps?
Is the constant relay clicking having any significant impact on lifespan of relay?
Its Summer now, will changing string length affect winter situation?
Thanks again for you response

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by SparkyNZ » Tue, 30 Jan 2018, 12:05

Hi guys,

I've been following for a while, especially interested in the Float/Absorption fixes. Glad the Dual-MPPT unit is almost there with an official update.

One question I had from previous pages was in regards to the apparent glitch when charging from a generator. Setting [11] to 30A works fine, but upping it any higher (40A/50A etc.) results in a constant cycle where the charge current will ramp up to somewhere between 35A & 40A before resetting itself back down to 0A and repeat.
Was any further progress made on this about the cause/whether it's the same for grid inputs?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 30 Jan 2018, 13:13

SparkyNZ wrote:
Tue, 30 Jan 2018, 12:05
One question I had from previous pages was in regards to the apparent glitch when charging from a generator. Setting [11] to 30A works fine, but upping it any higher (40A/50A etc.) results in a constant cycle...

Sorry, no progress as yet. I've still not seen this happen, but I have now seen a generator that would not work with the inverter at all, not even with the charge limit set at 2 A. That generator was a cheap, non inverter model that audibly stuttered, and the frequency was about 2.5 Hz high, so I'm not surprised that the inverter refused to synchronise with it.

So I'm thinking that these inverter chargers are quite picky. But there does seem to be something odd about which generators they accept, and I still hope to find out what's at the root of this. It may be patchable.

[ Edit (again) : With grid input, I don't expect to see this cycling behaviour ever.]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 30 Jan 2018, 19:40

al76 wrote:
Mon, 29 Jan 2018, 19:15
Thanks for this response. This sure does make a lot of sense and takes a load of my mind.
Will I need to consider cable size with more amps?
Yes. You should ensure that your array cable can carry the short circuit current of all 3 strings continuously. You should also ensure that your array cable does not drop more than 3% of the maximimum-power voltage, at the maximum-power current.
http://www.voltagedropcalculator.com.au
So 4 mm² will be OK if your most distant panel is no more than 8 metres by cable length, from your inverter. 6 mm² will be good for 12 metres. If it's further than that, you could run each string to the inverter in a separate 4 mm² pair. That would be good for 25 metres.

You never need string fuses when paralleling two strings, but when paralleling 3 strings you need string fuses if the short circuit current from two strings in parallel is greater than the maximum fuse rating given in the panel datasheet.
Is the constant relay clicking having any significant impact on lifespan of relay?
Probably not, as it should not be carrying any current at the times when it opens or closes.
Its Summer now, will changing string length affect winter situation?
Thanks again for you response
No. There will be no problem in winter with strings of 2 x 72-cell panels, no matter how cold it gets. But if you leave it with strings of 3, the problem will only get worse as the weather gets colder.

The consideration with strings of 2 x 72-cells is whether, in the middle of the hottest summer day, their maximum power point voltage will fall below the absorb voltage setting [26] plus 1.5 volts. This is very unlikely. And even if it does occur, it only means that you will not be getting the maximum power from your panels at that time. These are times when excessive voltage drop in the array cable can have a significant impact.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by al76 » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 10:31

Thanks again for your response
weber wrote:
Tue, 30 Jan 2018, 19:40

No. There will be no problem in winter with strings of 2 x 72-cell panels, no matter how cold it gets. But if you leave it with strings of 3, the problem will only get worse as the weather gets colder.

The consideration with strings of 2 x 72-cells is whether, in the middle of the hottest summer day, their maximum power point voltage will fall below the absorb voltage setting [26] plus 1.5 volts. This is very unlikely. And even if it does occur, it only means that you will not be getting the maximum power from your panels at that time. These are times when excessive voltage drop in the array cable can have a significant impact.
I have had this setup running for 12+ months and didn't see this behaviour last summer. I'm hoping to get on the roof today and disconnect 1 panel from each string.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 10:48

al76 wrote:
Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 10:31
Thanks again for your response.
I have had this setup running for 12+ months and didn't see this behaviour last summer.
Of course you didn't have too low voltage near mid-day last summer, because you have 3 panels in series. Instead you have too high voltage near dawn in winter.
If you had 2 x 60-cell panels in series you would have too low voltage near mid-day in summer (unless they were 60-cell panels with an unusually high voltage, or your summers are very cool).
With 2 x 72-cell panels in series you should not have any of these problems.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by al76 » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 11:41

weber wrote:
Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 10:48
al76 wrote:
Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 10:31
Thanks again for your response.
I have had this setup running for 12+ months and didn't see this behaviour last summer.
Of course you didn't have too low voltage near mid-day last summer, because you have 3 panels in series. Instead you have too high voltage near dawn in winter.
If you had 2 x 60-cell panels in series you would have too low voltage near mid-day in summer (unless they were 60-cell panels with an unusually high voltage, or your summers are very cool).
With 2 x 72-cell panels in series you should not have any of these problems.
The solar volts readout on the PIP, Is that OC or the MPPT value? Its not obvious to me from reading the manual. Thanks again.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 12:15

If the inverter is not drawing any current from the PV array, then it will be the OC voltage. If the inverter is doing maximum power point tracking, then it will be the MPPT voltage. You can tell what state it is in by looking at the PV power readout. If it's zero, it's open circuit.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by al76 » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 13:57

weber wrote:
Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 12:15
If the inverter is not drawing any current from the PV array, then it will be the OC voltage. If the inverter is doing maximum power point tracking, then it will be the MPPT voltage. You can tell what state it is in by looking at the PV power readout. If it's zero, it's open circuit.
The OC voltage reported by the Pip is about 130v Once mppt kicks in with charging it drops to about 110v
Image
From this graph you can see that Volts sits about 130v until about 10am the mppt/charging kicked in.
I turned off the solar about 4pm ( on graph you can see Volts drop to zero) to try and change the string but I had a connector issue then it it started raining :(
I turned the solr back on and as you can see the V went back to about 125v and the relay just clicks away again.
A graph same time period but showing watts
Image
and amps graph
Image
Anyway some more info. Given the OC volts is well below max of 145v is it possible there is some issue with the pip?
I'll be adding some more panels soon so I may have to wait to do the string mod test.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 15:19

al76 wrote:
Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 13:57
The OC voltage reported by the Pip is about 130v Once mppt kicks in with charging it drops to about 110v
From this graph you can see that Volts sits about 130v until about 10am the mppt/charging kicked in.
...
I turned off the solar about 4pm ( on graph you can see Volts drop to zero) to try and change the string but I had a connector issue then it it started raining :(
Hi Alan, If your connector issue was difficulty in getting MC4 connectors apart, I note that a 16 mm (or 5/8") open-end spanner works well to compress the barbs and allow them to come apart. Much better than fingers (too fat to fit in the notches), and much better than pointy nose pliers (jaws not parallel). But even with the spanner compressing the barbs, it can take a lot of pulling and wiggling to get them apart.
I turned the solr back on and as you can see the V went back to about 125v and the relay just clicks away again.
Given the OC volts is well below max of 145v is it possible there is some issue with the pip?
I'll be adding some more panels soon so I may have to wait to do the string mod test.
It does seem that your PIP is more sensitive to high voltage than is claimed in the manual, but for all I know, they may all be like that. What are your U1 and U2 firmware version numbers?

But no matter whether the PIP is out of spec or not, there is no doubt that the optimum number of 72-cell panels in series, for a PIP-4048MS, is 2. Please just do the experiment.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by al76 » Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 19:09

weber wrote:
Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 15:19

It does seem that your PIP is more sensitive to high voltage than is claimed in the manual, but for all I know, they may all be like that. What are your U1 and U2 firmware version numbers?
Firmware versions 72.70 and 04.12
weber wrote:
Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 15:19
But no matter whether the PIP is out of spec or not, there is no doubt that the optimum number of 72-cell panels in series, for a PIP-4048MS, is 2. Please just do the experiment.
Will have another attempt tomorrow.
Thanks again

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by vulcanescu35 » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 05:29

hi guys,

own a pip 4048 msd, with MAIN CPU Vers: 75.20
SCC1CPU :1.02
SCC2CPU: 1.02

now, i have a problem with the absorption voltage that does not take more than 1 min, and i wanted to know if the firmware released by you for MSD / MST can solve and it is suitable for my inverter?

best regards,

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 06:45

vulcanescu35 wrote:
Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 05:29
hi guys,

Welcome.
...
i wanted to know if the firmware released by you for MSD / MST can solve and it is suitable for my inverter?
Yes. The 75.31a patched firmware fixes just the problem of exiting absorb stage to float stage too early, and nothing else, other than identifying itself on what was the U1 display page (main firmware version). So that should fix your problem.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 13:26

Wanted: 74.xx firmware update file

It appears, based on this South African thread, and this Voltronic Power web page (in the Specifications tab), that the single-MPPT 4 kW 5 kVA model (e.g. PIP-4048MS) will not be available in future, being replaced by the single-MPPT 5 kW 5 kVA model (e.g. PIP-5048MS). Part of the evidence for this is that the Voltronic model number for these two devices is exactly the same, namely "Axpert MKS 5K", and in the South African thread we can see the model number "SOL-I-AX-5M" on labels for both 5000VA/4000W (2015) and 5000VA/5000W (late 2017) models.

The worst thing about this is that we are fairly certain the 5 kW 5 kVA model still has the premature-float bug in its firmware, which is version 74.10, and we do not have a firmware update file for it. Nor can it be extracted from the inverter.

It is astounding that despite several attempts on our part, and others, both via MPP Solar and direct to Voltronic, and all our posts in public forums, we still have not managed to get through to them that this bug exists, and how simple it is for them to fix it.

So we'd appreciate if anyone can send us a firmware update file for any 74.xx version (by Private Message if you prefer), so we can fix this bug yet again.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by vulcanescu35 » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 15:12

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 06:45
vulcanescu35 wrote:
Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 05:29
hi guys,

Welcome.
...
i wanted to know if the firmware released by you for MSD / MST can solve and it is suitable for my inverter?
Yes. The 75.31a patched firmware fixes just the problem of exiting absorb stage to float stage too early, and nothing else, other than identifying itself on what was the U1 display page (main firmware version). So that should fix your problem.
thank you for the huge support provided on this forum!
  With particular respect,
Cristian

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kurnol » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 13:21

Good afternoon all,

First off I have learnt a great deal from this forum, thanks. At xmas I bought a second 4048ms, been running one for a year no issues. Connected the second one up today. Paralleled the batteries and the output, no pv's connected. Set up the master no issues, as soon as I turned on the slave it alarmed and the fault light came on. Is there any fault codes you can access?
Triple checked all the parallel connections and they are correct to drawing.
Any ideas. I have emailed my solar.
Thanks

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Kurnol » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 14:17

Kurnol wrote:
Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 13:21
Good afternoon all,

First off I have learnt a great deal from this forum, thanks. At xmas I bought a second 4048ms, been running one for a year no issues. Connected the second one up today. Paralleled the batteries and the output, no pv's connected. Set up the master no issues, as soon as I turned on the slave it alarmed and the fault light came on. Is there any fault codes you can access?
Triple checked all the parallel connections and they are correct to drawing.
Any ideas. I have emailed my solar.
Thanks
Update, after sitting down and having a beer, i decided to go check for a fault code and it worked fine this time! Only thing i did different was switch off the breakers on my ac outlet side.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 15:31

Kurnol wrote:
Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 13:21
Good afternoon all,
Welcome.
Set up the master no issues, as soon as I turned on the slave it alarmed and the fault light came on.
So both are independently set to PAL mode (setting 28)?
Is there any fault codes you can access?
When the fault light is on, and the "ERROR" indicator is on to the right of the middle two digits, the two digits in the middle are the fault code. For example, in the attached, it is indicating error/fault code 71, which you look up in the Parallel Installation Guide because it's an error specific to paralleling machines.

Can you quote that number please? Or are you saying that the LCD doesn't come on?

[ Edit: Error 71 means "Firmware version inconsistent". You have to have the same or "compatible" firmware revisions in the master and all slaves. See the Parallel Compatibility post for details. ]

[ Edited the edit to point to the parallel compatibility post; 72.70 and 72.70a are actually not always compatible. ]
Attachments
Error 71.png
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 15:41

Kurnol wrote:
Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 13:21
... At xmas I bought a second 4048ms, been running one for a year no issues. Connected the second one up today. Paralleled the batteries and the output, no pv's connected. Set up the master no issues, as soon as I turned on the slave it alarmed and the fault light came on. Is there any fault codes you can access?
Triple checked all the parallel connections and they are correct to drawing.
Any ideas. I have emailed my solar. Thanks
Hi Kurnol. Are you saying you have a fault light (red), but no fault number?
If you have a fault number, and are looking for the explanation of what the number means, some are listed in the main manual (page 28) and others in the parallel manual (page 14).

What happens if you disconnect the master from the battery and start up only the slave? Does it still have a fault?
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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