PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Powermos2k17 » Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 00:19

Dear all,
I'm new of this forum.
I have some friend that have bougth the PIP4048MS and I've see great work around it then thank for it.
My friend asking me the following question about mixing the power between the power source solar, battery and utility.
I like to know if is possible drive the inverter behaviour from the point of view of the power to the load, in other word if is possible make a dynamic mixing of the power between solar, batteries and utility in order to preserve the batteries lifetime.
My think is to drive the inverter by a selfmade microprocessor based card able to manage the inverter protocol command, I can do that without any problem (I can use micro, asic, writing firmware and make pcb as well). Before start in this task I kindly ask you that are more expert with this inverter if this should be feasible by using external current transducer with a custom card and most important if there are commands able to perform dynamical power mixing in that sense.
Could you please let me know something more on the subject? Of course if all can be do the work will be released as freeware.
I'm a power electronic engineer, loving reverse engineering and modding stuff!
Bye
Powermos

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 21:48

Hi Weber,
I have around two weeks on the 72.70c beta and the only issue that i notice its that the invertor temperature increased a bit after the upgrade:
before the upgrade the temperature was between 40 and 45 , now its around 45-50 celsius degrees.
Thanks
IonutD

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by dinu_tiberiu_george » Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 23:43

Hy again. Today i have a smoky problem. I have 2 pip 5048ms connected in parallel. I connected my master pip 5048ms with an ethernet cable to the laptop and try to establishing the connection. And a minutes later a very dense smoke came out from the inverter. The inverter is still working properly, but the usb connection is not working any more on this inverter. If i use the connection from the slave inverter is working properly. I think that my comunication board of my inverter has gone. I already write a mail to mppsolar suport. Was it a mistake trying to connect via an ethernet cable trough rs322 port?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 09:03

[Moderator note: This is partly a response to this post in the PIP repair and hardware modification topic.]
Howard wrote:
Wed, 29 Nov 2017, 13:45
Hi Weber,
Thanks Mate. Are you going into production with the EV MX5?
Hi Howard. No. But I'm happy to convert another one for anyone who wants to pay. :)
May be you can give me some ideas on my VR commodore when I get round to it:)
Sure.
ionutd wrote:
Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 21:48
Hi Weber,
I have around two weeks on the 72.70c beta and the only issue that i notice its that the invertor temperature increased a bit after the upgrade:
before the upgrade the temperature was between 40 and 45 , now its around 45-50 celsius degrees.
Hi IonutD. Thanks for testing. What version were you running before the upgrade? What were the ambient air temperatures before and after? Were you running our LFP version or our lead-acid/lithium-cobalt version of 72.70c beta?
dinu_tiberiu_george wrote:
Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 23:43
Hy again. Today i have a smoky problem. I have 2 pip 5048ms connected in parallel. I connected my master pip 5048ms with an ethernet cable to the laptop and try to establishing the connection. And a minutes later a very dense smoke came out from the inverter. The inverter is still working properly, but the usb connection is not working any more on this inverter. If i use the connection from the slave inverter is working properly. I think that my comunication board of my inverter has gone. I already write a mail to mppsolar suport. Was it a mistake trying to connect via an ethernet cable trough rs322 port?
Hi dinu_tiberiu_george. Yes, it was a mistake to connect an ethernet cable to the RS232 port of the inverter. You should only use the cable that was supplied with the inverter, and a USB to D9 serial adapter, as we describe here. But I hope that MPPSolar support will recognise that by having an RJ45 socket for its RS232 port the product invites such a connection, and so I hope they will supply you with a new comms board.

If not, it can probably be repaired by replacing a few low-cost parts. If they are charred beyond recognition, tell us what their designators are (e.g "U2", "R3", printed in white on the circuit board) and we'll look them up. Or better still, post a photo.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 09:10

Powermos2k17 wrote:
Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 00:19
I'm new of this forum.
Welcome, Powermos.
My friend asking me the following question about mixing the power between the power source solar, battery and utility.
I like to know if is possible drive the inverter behaviour from the point of view of the power to the load, in other word if is possible make a dynamic mixing of the power between solar, batteries and utility in order to preserve the batteries lifetime.
Using the RS232 commands, it's not possible to do much in this direction. I assume you would like to minimise the small charges and discharges from the battery as the load and solar power varies. Unfortunately, unless you change the firmware dramatically, it's not possible to blend battery power via the inverter with grid power. When power is supplied to the load from the battery (battery mode), it's not possible to use grid power at all, certainly not with standard or the present patched firmware. Weber and I are not willing to invest the huge amount of work that would be required to safely fiddle with the inverter control part of the firmware.
My think is to drive the inverter by a selfmade microprocessor based card able to manage the inverter protocol command, I can do that without any problem (I can use micro, asic, writing firmware and make pcb as well).
So this self-made microprocessor would talk to the main DSP via the 2400 bps serial interface? If so, you could do the same from a PC or completely external microprocessor, and save the hassle of a custom PCB. If you mean replacing the existing daughter board that holds the DSP microprocessor, that's a massive amount of work. I would think that you would rather retain the existing DSP daughter board, and modify the existing firmware. But even this is a massive amount of work, for what I see as very little gain.
Before start in this task I kindly ask you that are more expert with this inverter if this should be feasible by using external current transducer with a custom card and most important if there are commands able to perform dynamical power mixing in that sense.
There is already a LEM current sensor on the AC output, so no need for an external one. You could gain some speed with an external sensor, but there aren't commands that would allow the SCC charge current (the only real variable) to be modified any quicker than it already is.

The blending that you seek really requires a "hybrid" inverter, where grid power can be adjusted to keep the battery power low.
I'm a power electronic engineer, loving reverse engineering and modding stuff!
You might be able to achieve your goals on either a Voltronic Power hybrid inverter like the Infini series, or the Goodwe ES series. Unfortunately, I have no experience with any of those.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by dinu_tiberiu_george » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 14:06

Hy,
If the mpp solar does not support a new board, is it ok to leave it just like that? I am using the connection of the second inverter. Thx

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PurePower » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 16:22

Hi weber and Coulomb,

This is an awesome achievement to get us all this far. We highly appreciate your efforts in doing this. If ever there is a need for me to test any type of scenario, please do not hesitate to PM me. I'll try and assist in any way possible.

Cheers mate!

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 19:25

dinu_tiberiu_george wrote:
Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 14:06
Hy, If the mpp solar does not support a new board, is it ok to leave it just like that? I am using the connection of the second inverter. Thx
Yes. It's OK to leave it like that. The comms is opto-isolated, so you could only have damaged components on the serial port side of the optos, not the inverter side.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by ionutd » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 20:22

weber wrote:
Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 09:03
ionutd wrote:
Sat, 02 Dec 2017, 21:48
Hi Weber,
I have around two weeks on the 72.70c beta and the only issue that i notice its that the invertor temperature increased a bit after the upgrade:
before the upgrade the temperature was between 40 and 45 , now its around 45-50 celsius degrees.
Hi IonutD. Thanks for testing. What version were you running before the upgrade? What were the ambient air temperatures before and after? Were you running our LFP version or our lead-acid/lithium-cobalt version of 72.70c beta?
I'm running lithium cobalt version dsp_BC1_72.70c, before i had 74.smth :)
Ambient temperature didn't change it was around 26 before the upgrade , and its around 26 now.
Should i try to update to dsp_LC1_72.70c ?
Thanks
IonutD

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 04 Dec 2017, 07:28

ionutd wrote:
Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 20:22
I'm running lithium cobalt version dsp_BC1_72.70c, before i had 74.smth :)
I'm afraid you're going to have to explain what 74.smth is. Use private messaging if you prefer.

Folks should rest assured that there is no reason why inverter temperatures should be any different between the original 72.70 and our patched 72.70c. We have not changed anything to do with fan operation, or low-level inverter or charger operation. And the temperatures that IonutD mentions are not a problem.
Should i try to update to dsp_LC1_72.70c ?
Yes. Everyone who feels competent to carry out the reflashing operation should update their post-2013 PIP-4048MS or Axpert MKS 5kVA to the 72.70c release version that is compatible with their battery, even if they are currently running 73.00.

The main reason for the existence of our patched firmware is to correct two bugs in the charging code, which under certain very common circumstances result in stopping charge (going to float) prematurely. This results in wasting your available solar resource, not using the available capacity of your battery, and in the case of lead-acid batteries, prematurely ageing your battery.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Mon, 04 Dec 2017, 16:43

Please note on the RJ45 of the inverter there is a +15 volt power output to drive the remote control unit this is provided by a small transformer on the comms board which also provides this 15 volts to the RS232 so be careful not to short this out.
I run the HLKRM04 RS232 to TCPIP converters from this which gives the inverters a TCPIP connection either cabled or wireless.
Also note I change settings over the internet without any problems this is safe to do as the manufacturer has correctly used a CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) to confirm valid data.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by PurePower » Mon, 04 Dec 2017, 20:26

weber wrote:
Fri, 01 Dec 2017, 15:51
We've also added seven "easter eggs", that we collectively call "AusieView". We'll award coloured stars to posts that describe any of these easter eggs in a way that benefits others. They aren't exactly hidden. We're just too lazy to document them ourselves. :D We figure we've done enough work just implementing them. :geek: :ugeek:
I'm currently running the LFP 72.70c firmware, these are the notable changes (hoping they are the easter eggs)

1. The Up button now only loops through all the Input display info(Top left info)
2. The Down button now only loops through all the Output display info(Top right info), effectively the up and down buttons work independently.
3. The Input display now also shows the Inverter temperature.
4. The Solar panel icon on the LCD display shows the amount Solar power available. Not sure how its calculated though?
5. The program settings text display has changed on almost all the program settings from 1-38. Eg. Program 1 now displays "out [01] Sbu" , Program 6 now displays "oLr [06] LrE", Program 26 now displays "AbS [26] 53.2v", Too many to mention, although i could list them all.
6. Program 32 has a little "m" now displaying, i'm guessing to indicate that the setting is defined in minutes.
7. Program 16, Solar first option LCD text display changed from "CSO" to "SoL"

I hope i got them all or are there more?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Mon, 04 Dec 2017, 21:22

PurePower wrote:
Mon, 04 Dec 2017, 20:26
I'm currently running the LFP 72.70c firmware, these are the notable changes (hoping they are the easter eggs)

I hope i got them all or are there more?
Well done, PurePower! I count 5 stars there. We counted your items 1 and 2 as the same easter egg, for example.

Five stars.png
Five stars.png (89.34 KiB) Viewed 3645 times

So there are still two more to be found. Plus a couple associated with dynamic current commands that we were going to give away in the release post, but it seems Weber overlooked it. So four more up for grabs! Who will claim them?

[ Edit: My bad. The two stars associated with dynamic current control are actually given away in the dynamic current control manual. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 05 Dec 2017, 09:24

PurePower wrote:
Mon, 04 Dec 2017, 20:26
4. The Solar panel icon on the LCD display shows the amount Solar power available. Not sure how its calculated though?
The solar panel icon bar-graph shows the SCC output power rounded to the nearest kilowatt (up to 3.5 kW). It's not "available solar power" (that would be really useful, but it would be impossible to calculate, as far as I know). So really this is the same information as PV "input" power, except quantised to just 4 levels. [ Edit: "input" is in quotes because it's really the output of the SCC. But since the SCC claims around 98% efficiency, it's close to the PV input power (PV voltage multiplied by PV current). ]

Weber has reminded me that he didn't overlook the LCD changes associated with the Dynamic Charge Control; they are in the DCC manual (updated since the beta post).
So that's back to two stars left. However, it's all rather arbitrary, so extra stars can be awarded for extra details. For example, Weber wanted to cut one of your stars down to one sixth of a star! That might be a clue that could earn you or other readers an additional star.

[ Edit: Condensed long explanation of PV bar graph. Added note re "input" power. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Fri, 08 Dec 2017, 22:28

The manual below describes all the display improvements added in patched firmware 72.70c.
AussieView Manual.txt
(8.71 KiB) Downloaded 144 times
[Edit: superceded, see below]
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Mon, 11 Dec 2017, 08:31

Updated to describe all the display improvements including the improvements to the 7-segment "font".
AussieView Manual.txt
(10.57 KiB) Downloaded 265 times
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Wed, 13 Dec 2017, 13:41

Hi folks, not sure if this is the correct forum so let me know if not.

I have just ordered a PIP5048MSD and trying to decide what panel string configuration I should use. I will be purchasing a second PIP5048MSD with parallel kits if testing goes ok. (I have been running a shed/pool pump off an IPS4000 ( PIP "4048") for 9 months and am looking at converting part of the main house load to "hybrid" mode with 2 x 5048MSD's.)

The panels I plan on using for the 5048 are rated Voc = 37.x volts. When I plugged the multimeter in today (nice 25 degree day with lots of sun, panels were cool to start with) I get a Voc of 35.9 - 36.2V. After a few minutes in the sun the voltage dropped a couple of tenths. Each 5048 will have 6kw of panels across the 2 inputs. Panels are 3-5 years old.

The panels on the existing 4048 read around 120Voc at the panels and around 115.5Voc at the 4048. There is a bit of a cable run and currently going through 2 sets of breakers which all adds resistance.

So what's my question..... Should I put 3 or 4 panels in series?? 4 panels calculates to 144Voc, which by the time it gets to the 5048 will probably be around 140Voc (??). My guess is Vmp would be closer to 110V - 115V. Is this living too dangerously from a PIP reliability point of view and the 5048 max Voc of 145V?? What do people see during winter with respect to Voc if the temp drops to 10 degrees say?

I live in Queensland (Sunshine Coast), so winters never get really cold here.
My concern if I go 3 in series is that Vmp will be at the lower end of what I would like (aiming for 100V-110V), and obviously current goes up a bit as well, more cable, more breakers, less efficient? etc)

Thanks in advance for any advice.
John

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 13 Dec 2017, 14:30

Welcome John. I direct you to this post,
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4332&p=58265&hilit ... age#p58265
updated by this,
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4332&p=60374&hilit ... age#p60374
and this.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4332&p=61829&hilit ... age#p61829
Another option, apart from two 72-cell panels, or 3 of the REC-PEs, is two of these in series:
http://www.rpc.com.au/catalog/seraphim- ... -4524.html

We can calculate your open circuit voltage at 10 °C if you tell us the exact Voc at STC (25 °C) and the temperature coefficient of voltage, from the panel datasheet. Or just give us a link to the datasheet.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Wed, 13 Dec 2017, 15:01

Hi. Voc at 25= 37.2. Temp co Voc = -0.32%/c.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Wed, 13 Dec 2017, 16:09

Going from 25 °C to 10 °C is a drop of 15 degrees. So the open circuit voltage will go up by 15 * 0.32% = 4.8%. So it will be 104.8/100 * 37.2 = 39.0 V. So 3 in series will be under 120 V (and will remain so down to 2 °C). But four of them would be 156 V.

I note that there is no voltage drop due to cable or breaker resistance in the case of open circuit voltage, because there is zero current.

The lower limit for Vmp for the PIP is pretty much its absorb voltage setting [26] as required for your battery [Edit: possibly plus 1.5 V as mentioned by Coulomb, here]. So 3 in series will be fine in that regard too.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by jds686868 » Thu, 14 Dec 2017, 06:02

Cool, thanks for the confirmation Dave. 3s it will be then. Not sure why I was getting a few volts drop close to the PIP - maybe a bit of cloud cover when I went to measure?
Thanks again.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Sat, 16 Dec 2017, 07:48

jds686868 wrote:
Wed, 13 Dec 2017, 13:41
So what's my question..... Should I put 3 or 4 panels in series??
Three panels is optimal. with 250W panels I see (roughly) voltages of 70 to 90 under load.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by cristof » Wed, 20 Dec 2017, 23:25

Hi all,
first please apologize for my poor english.
I am runing a new solar inverter from MPP SOLAR (VOLTRONIC for sure)
It's a MPI serie 5.5kw. It's working well from the front keyboard, but imposible to connect to the software (SOLAR POWER) (similar to watch power, but MPI serie is GRID / OFFGRID). My laptop is window 10, when I connect the USB cable to inverter, there is a device detection, (management device as HID device).
In the CD for software there is a software called commAssistant. if I run it I can send a few HID command as QPI,QI, QPIRI...
it's seems the connexion is good.
But nothing, no data, no connexion from SOLAR POWER software.
Does somebody can help me ?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by vulcanescu35 » Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 05:30

good evening,
I can't use the management interfaces on PIP 4048 MSD simultaneously ( USB+RS232). if I'm connected to the USB port (where I use a raspverry PI) and at the same time trying to connect to RS 232 I can not synchronize Watch Power until I disconnect the USB port. I'm interested in using Raspberry on USB with ICC software and serial connection with a PC for Watch Power.
is there any solution to this?

best regards,

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 06:25

Welcome to the forum.
vulcanescu35 wrote:
Sat, 30 Dec 2017, 05:30
I'm interested in using Raspberry on USB with ICC software and serial connection with a PC for Watch Power.
is there any solution to this?
Both the RS232 and the USB ports use the same serial port on the DSP. So I can't see an easy solution there.

Perhaps you could use a serial port on the Raspberry Pi to talk to Watchpower on the PC, and get the Pi to act as a sort of router, interleaving commands and directing responses to the PC or other Pi software as appropriate. You could assume that any response is to the most recent command, so it might not be very difficult.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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