PIP-4048MS inverter

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 00:29

What's that you say? You think I might be voiding my warranty?

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 01:24

ROFLMAO

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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 01:43

Weber, I just read through the PIP4048 user manual cover to cover and no were did it say not to cut the inductor off the main board with a power saw. Image

so your warranty should be fine.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 16 Jan 2017, 14:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by weber » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 03:23

Hee hee ha ha. Well I tried to desolder it. But it has 6 pins! 4 are mechanical only, but that makes it as difficult as an IC. You have to melt the solder on all the pins at once. At least with an IC they are close together. The inductor's two electrical connections, and the tracks they are soldered to, just sucked up whatever heat I threw at them. So I got out the micro butane torch. I almost set fire to the PCB. I certainly caused it to char and bubble. The inductor never budged. I think its base board is glued to the top side of the PCB by the conformal coating, and the black stuff that glues the winding to its base board is a thermoset, as hard as a rock. I tried poking it with a hot soldering iron. It didn't notice.

But I was determined not to let the bastard beat me. Image

Hence the sabre saw.

I won!

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Post by paulvk » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 03:59

Could you have a look at the FETs on the small heat sink near the DC connection to confirm they are really 60V working.

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Post by weber » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 05:21

Image

It's a pair of T225-size cores glued together. POCO part number NPF225040. Overall dimensions 57.2 mm OD, 34.8 mm ID (difference/2 = 11 .2 mm), 29 mm wide (14.5 mm per core). 50 nH/turn². 64 turns, in 3 layers. Approximately 6 m of trifilar 1.45 mm dia wire, 1.65 mm² (15 AWG). [I earlier thought it was 1.29 mm dia, 1.31 mm² (16 AWG)]. Datasheet
paulvk wrote: Could you have a look at the FETs on the small heat sink near the DC connection to confirm they are really 60V working.

Yes. IRFB3006. I understand they are only used to protect the inverter from a reverse polarity battery.

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Post by solamahn » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 12:29

Old type with black heat sink on top. Airflow direction up. You would not think this setup would make much difference because the fans are at the bottom and the heat sink is at the top but if you try it you will see that the heat sink is cooler. Also depends on the firmware revision because some have the fans running faster more often.
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Post by paulvk » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 14:22

When I get the main board out of this inverter I will have a look and see how the FETs are connected with only a 60v rating if they are always across the battery then they a flying very close to the sun!

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Post by coulomb » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 14:31

weber wrote: 50 nH/turn². 64 turns...

The datasheet says 50 nH/turn² for each core. From this page, the formula for inductance of a toroid is

L ~= μN²A/(2πr)

where A is the cross sectional area. So with twice the area, for the same permeability μ, number of turns N, and radius r, you'd expect twice the inductance from two cores. That's 100 nH/turn², or 100 x 64² = 409,600 nH = 410 μH. That's reasonably close to my measured 390 μH.

I note that I was way off with my distance estimation, coming up with 4.4 m. But that was based on 1.31 mm² wire, and Weber measured it at 1.65 mm². That would increase my estimation by 1.65/1.31 to 5.5 m, not too far from his approximately 6 m. I recall the first time I measured the wire, I found a higher diameter than the 1.3 mm Weber claimed, but did it again and found 1.3 mm, so I took his figure.

The wire may not be exactly 15 AWG; China is a metric country, and odd AWGs are uncommon. So it might be 1.5 mm diameter, or 1.4 mm.

While poking about on my spare main board, I noted that the battery side converter's transformer and inductor are both wound with litz wire.

[ Edit 19/Jan/2017: rewrote the first section calculating expected inductance, as I had made such a hash of it. ]
Last edited by coulomb on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 09:48, edited 1 time in total.
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PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Northland » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 16:20


Last edited by Northland on Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 05:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Northland » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 16:27

My pip died again. A minor short circuit elsewhere in the system caused this on the scc board:
ImageImageImage

Do you think it's just a case of running a wire from one side of the board to the other?
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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 17:05

As long as nothing more was damaged.

I have never liked the ridiculously tall standoffs used to transmit power down to the main board.

What kind of protection down/up stream did you have? Protection was rated to high to do it's job or the connection is underrated. Probably the latter.

That said go over all connections when you get a new pip as both my units has several that needed tightening.

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Post by Northland » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 17:31

63A breaker tripped, but too late I guess. 125A fuse didn't blow.

Seems there is more damage. I ran a wire over but it didn't solve it.

These things die way too easy
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Post by Northland » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 17:45

Just out of warranty, of course.

Is it possible to use the scc board as a stand alone?

Might get a victron multiplus, can use shore assist mode to boost the output of my small victron Phoenix
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Post by coulomb » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 19:00

Northland wrote: My pip died again. A minor short circuit elsewhere in the system caused this on the scc board...

That black carbonated mess needs to come completely off. It can be conductive, which would reduce the isolation between copper pads that may have 450 V on them.
Do you think it's just a case of running a wire from one side of the board to the other?
You've answered this yourself; no it won't. There are already many vias connecting the top and bottom copper areas already, so adding a wire won't help.
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Post by coulomb » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 20:02

paulvk wrote: When I get the main board out of this inverter I will have a look and see how the FETs are connected
I traced that part of the schematic a while back [ Edit: this may not be the MOSFETs you are talking about; sorry for the confusion if that's the case. ] ; I reproduce the left corner of that diagram here:
Reverse protection sch.png
Reverse protection sch.png (5.79 KiB) Viewed 97 times
The four reverse protection MOSFETs are in parallel. So they see battery potential, but only when you connect the battery the wrong way. At that point, it's unlikely that the battery is near 60 V, so I guess that's not too bad. As soon as the battery is present and the right way around, it's a low impedance, with only millivolts from drain to source.

Edit: but as I look at the schematic above, it seems to me it would never start, so there must be a bit more to it. But the essentials would be correct.
Edit 2: It starts due to the integral diodes in the MOSFETs. Changed schematic to show these.
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 10:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by coulomb » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 20:09

Northland wrote: Is it possible to use the scc board as a stand alone?

In theory yes, it's much the same hardware as some Voltronic stand alone chargers, but you would have to send it commands all the time at 2400 bps, and the commands are not documented.

It's possible you could patch the SCC firmware to not require commands, but that would be a huge amount of work.
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Post by paulvk » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 21:12

So they are always across the battery does that not mean that their working voltage will be exceeded if the battery goes above 60v!

On another note I came across an interesting power meter on e-bay
100a 120v wireless with color lcd display just search on
"DC 120V 100A Wireless Volt Ammeter Power Meter"

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Post by offgridQLD » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 23:34

Guys if you haven't already ordered the wire from that eBay seller listed I would perhaps consider not doing so.

I could have have just annoyed him by asking him to change my order to a different spec. He was Ok with that at first (so he should be as it was listed for less money)

Then asked him to also change it to 30ft instead of 10 offering to pay in full the extra necessary. He insisted that now the cost would now be $30 for very 10ft of wire and I would need to pay an extra $60 on top of the $22.70 I had already payed him total $82.70

Real cost should have been $51.86 an extra $29.16 not $60

On top of that I then get a message saying he has sent just 10ft of the original order 35/32 size.



Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 13:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coulomb » Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 23:56

paulvk wrote: So they are always across the battery does that not mean that their working voltage will be exceeded if the battery goes above 60v!

No, the reverse protection MOSFETs are in series with the negative lead of the battery.
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Post by weber » Wed, 18 Jan 2017, 00:11

Hi Kurt. I didn't see your post before I placed my order. But you can't really fault them for having promptly sent off your original order, can you? Image

I just ordered 6 m (20 ft) of the litz wire consisting of 100 strands of 32 AWG (0.2 mm). I ordered Qty: 2, Length: 10FT, and included a message saying "Please supply as one 20 ft length". I confirmed with them beforehand, that they will honour this request. Total AU$47.28. It will take 3 to 5 weeks to arrive (free postage).
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 18 Jan 2017, 01:11

That sounds like it should begin fine.

I think I will just give up on emending that order and just add the 10ft of 32/35 the the parts bin in the shed for another project one day.

If your results are sucsefull then I will reorder the same under my wife's eBay acount as he has it in for me now Image .

I reversed the direction of the two stock fans In my 2013 pip4048 today. Sitting idle most of the day it actualy feels like there is more hot/warm air flowing out of the case now.

As in placing your hand near the top left side vent you can feel heated air on your hand where befor with the fans where blowing down I don't remember there being much not air exiting the bottom. Vents.

Perhaps this is just because the air is flowing over the hot Inductor then directly out the top side vents.

To me the black heat sink on top feels warmer to than when the fans where blowing out the bottom.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 14:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Northland » Wed, 18 Jan 2017, 17:06

coulomb wrote:but you would have to send it commands all the time at 2400 bps, and the commands are not documented.


Is this data only for relay state?
I can't see any other reason for the scc to receive data unless it's error checking.
What if you bypass the relays?

When the main board sh*t itself last time the scc still charged. But not this time
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Post by coulomb » Thu, 19 Jan 2017, 16:31

Northland wrote:
coulomb wrote:but you would have to send it commands all the time at 2400 bps...


Is this data only for relay state?
I can't see any other reason for the scc to receive data unless it's error checking.

No, I think this is mainly to send the target charge current. The SCC processor will send regular QGS commands to the DSP processor, and the DSP processor has to respond with a (GS to the SCC, and the target charge current is one of a handful of values sent as parameters to the (GS command. It doesn't look all that easy.
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Post by coulomb » Fri, 03 Feb 2017, 20:27

A minor update for the Lithium Iron Phosphate patched firmware based on original firmware 72.60.

Image

Update: a newer patched firmware is described in this post.

I've been using the patched firmware version 72.60A for about two months with little trouble. However, Weber and I have both noticed that at times, the PIP takes quite a long time to get to float, when it seems that the conditions have been right for some time (the battery voltage is near the bulk/absorb setpoint, and the charge current is the low single digits of amperes).

I watched data from my PIP-4048 closely yesterday. When the maximum charge current is set to 100 A, the float transition current threshold is 100/24 = 4 A. I believe it needs to be strictly under this threshold, i.e. 3 A or less. Yesterday, it never made it to float, instead disconnecting the charge sources due to overtemperature, which in turn was due to the Celltop Management Units (CMUs) remaining in bypass for such a long time. Plus, it was quite a hot day.

3 A is only 5% of the 60 A SCC rated current, and the SCC has to cope with continuously changing PV conditions as well as varying loads on the battery due to the AC loads. The problem seems to be that with this low threshold, the SCC rarely is able to achieve these conditions without exception for the required 50 seconds or so.

I suggested to Weber that perhaps the float transition current needs to be a larger fraction [ edit: smaller divisor] of the maximum charge current setting to make it easier for all the criteria for switching to float mode to be met. I suggested dividing by 15; in version 72.60A we divide by 24, and in earlier versions we divided by 30. He agreed, and patched firmware version 72.60b was born.

This lower float transition current divisor is the only change from version 72.60A. Please see that post for details of that version, and installation instructions in the post following it.

dsp_Li1_72.60b.zip (1.5 MB)

[ Edit: corrected "smaller fraction" to "larger fraction [ edit: smaller divisor]" ]
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 24 Feb 2017, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
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