toying with the idea of a motorbike conversion

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offgridQLD
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toying with the idea of a motorbike conversion

Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 29 Apr 2015, 16:05

Last weekend I was looking at my Electric recumbent trike with its 6kw out runner motor and 1/2 finished aluminium battery boxes and found it difficult to justify putting more time into it and getting it back on the road in the same format as it was befor taking it of the road.

Predominantly due to legal reasons. It will always be a risk to ride it on a public road (as it breaks all the electric bike rules in AU) and I think I might quit while I am ahead and have had my fun with it. I'm limited to where I can ride it legally.

So it got me thinking If I really want motorbike performance why not just build a bike that can be road registered.

I'm kind of drawn to the 80s bikes like the Honda CB750. Nice wide simple frame and can look kind a cool as a cafe racer. "Hey after driving the dorky Imiev around I need something with a bit of cool factor"Image

Anyhow I stumbled across this great example of a simple build that wasn't to exotic...(expensive) and looks like it would cover most of my needs as a bike to get around on to the local town or a lazy joy ride in the local hinterland area.

Could be handy transport On days when I don't have enough PV to charge a car but stil want to get out of the house. I'm sure I can spare enough to charge a motorbike.

Inspiration example link.
https://electricfinn.wordpress.com/page/5/

I recently picked up (yet to take delivery of) 32x40Ah calb CA cells. I purchased them to use as a range extender for the Imiev but my wife wasn't to keen on the idea of heavy battery's and inverters strapped behind the back seat of the Imiev inches from our 8yo daughter in the event of serious crash. A Fare point that I couldn't live with the results if it went bad. Using them just for trips when I'm the only one in the car (not often) wasn't great value.

So considering 25 cells gave that guy in the linked example 60km range and 100kph top speed along with a significant weight reduction over the stock 750's curb weight. Then if I have 32 cells to play with I might be able to push the range out a little more running closer to 100volts still be well within or more likely under the stock weight.

Fabrication of all the parts (That for the most part looked very simple) Battery boxed, motor mounts would be in house. So really just other than the bike it's self. A motor and controller package and a few small accessory is all that would be required.

Contractors, battery's bms, Cycle analyst, shunts, fusing, cable, terminals and raw material for fabricated parts I have already.

So motor and controller suggestions (I'm still not 100% keen on brushed motors as used in the example I linked to) Perhaps even some dona bike suggestions if my ideas are not the best.

How are the rules with emotor bike conversions. Its my understanding its a lot easier than trying to get a car through all the hoops?

Kurt



Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed, 29 Apr 2015, 06:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 29 Apr 2015, 16:37

i can no longer ride and as such have had 2 CBX550FII's (1 was going to restore 1 for parts) sitting for over 6 years (most of that time under cover but under a tarp for the last 3 months as i lost the storage place)

i know i'll never get back on it no matter how much i want to, if you want to look at them and talk price your welcome to come and see

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Post by Richo » Wed, 29 Apr 2015, 21:16

offgridQLD wrote:So motor and controller suggestions
I guess an ME0913 or ME1115 (from $1k+) would be a place to start. 12kW/30kW
Wouldn't be 750cc performance tho.
Sevcon Gen4 Size 4 Dont know price - speak to Rod.

offgridQLD wrote:How are the rules with emotor bike conversions. Its my understanding its a lot easier than trying to get a car through all the hoops?
Im sure every state is different but I have been told the inspectors assume if you crash it you and your bike are a write off so don't care about 10/20G crash ratings   Image
Ah pass on the heater too Image
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Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 29 Apr 2015, 21:35

Yes the list is a little shorter given air-conditioning, heating, power steering, vacume booster don't need to be considered in most bikes

I had a look at the two motors mentioned they look resonable. No I wouldn't expect 750 performance and don't really need it. I would be favoring the look and style, finish and relabilty of the bike conversion more that outright performance. I noticed the east/west 4cly bikes had a nice big empty space to work with when the ICE was removed so wouldn't nessaserly need to be a 750 frame. Perhaps some benefit in using a running regesterd bike but not 100% on that one.

Thanks for the ideas and offers.

Kurt



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Post by jonescg » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 01:16

Come to the Qld Raceway round of the electric superbikes. You can get some ideas then :)
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 02:02

Yes I will do my best to get there this time.

A super bike beast is a way different league than I would be aiming for using lifepo4 and vintage frame on a budget.

Though some inspiration never went astray.

I am starting to like the idea of not having to cart around 1000kg+ of car body. Just to move myself from one place to another. Everything can be wound back yet still retain a similar outcome in range and performance than a car that uses a lot more battery, motor and controller.

Kurt

Last edited by offgridQLD on Wed, 29 Apr 2015, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 15:50

offgridQLD wrote: No I wouldn't expect 750 performance and don't really need it.
Image Oops forgot to check your cells.
The total cell power output is about right for the motors 12/30kW.
So you wont get any better performance unless you change batteries anyway.
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 16:02

Yes really would be looking for something to cruse along with predominantly 60 - 80km roads in the hinterland. Take in the views, fresh air and twisty undulating terrain.

Local town is 12km away lots of other small towns and the coast is withing a 60 - 80km return trip. Very popular area with motorbike riders as there is so much riding variate within a small area.

Not looking to prove anything or set any records defiantly not a race bike build.But I build to take my time with and make everything look and function well as a package.

My wife even mentioned it again this morning so it seems to have her tick of approval more than shoving the cells behind the backseat of the Imiev.

What about the Motenergy ME1304 liquid cooled?


Specifications


Continuous Power (kW):     22,32
Peak Power (kW):     51,6
Rated Continuous Current (A):     250
Peak Current for 1 min (A):     650
Voltage Controller max (V):     96
Peak Stall Torque (Nm):     88
Rated Torque (Nm):     33
Efficiency (%):     93
Turns per Phase     20
Resistance L-L (ohm):     0,0063
Inductance @ 1kHz (mH):     0,066
Inductance @ 120 Hz (mH):     
Voltage Constant (V/RPM):     
Torque Constant (Nm/A):     
RMP max (1/min):     6500
Weight (kg):     16,8
Temperature Sensor:     KTY84-130
Encoder Type:     Sine/Cosine

Not that I would be able to use all the Rated 250A Continuous Current of the motor with 40AH lifpo4 cells But reliability might be higher being liquid cooled and under stressed.

Or is that to much motor?

Kurt





Last edited by offgridQLD on Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by carnut1100 » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 17:06

I want a Zero......but $$$$$
Might do this myself in a year or two!

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 17:13

"I want a Zero......but $$$$$
Might do this myself in a year or two! "

Build a trike (you know the kind that usualy have a VW engine in the back) But use your wrecked Imiev. Offer cruses around The country Image

Typically I would say the same and go with a Zero but only if the price justified it. Cars are expensive to build and there are a few inexpensive OEM cars getting around. But bikes particularly if you already have some of the main components don't look to bad on cost compared to something OEM

Kurt

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Post by mikedufty » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 20:35

I'm not sure electric motorbikes make a lot of sense, the aerodynamics are lousy compared to a car, and the weight advantage is offset by having to cart heavy batteries around.

I still want one though.

The zero was really nice to ride, needs to be half the price.
Though I would probably rather have a zero than the equivalently priced ICE bikes around, in reality I wouldn't spend that much on either.

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 20:50

" the aerodynamics are lousy compared to a car, and the weight advantage is offset by having to cart heavy batteries around. "

We are not using lead acid Image or going for a 500km range!

Given the total area of a bike vs a car and all the other associated drag a car has I totally disagree with the above statement. For one person transport it runs rings around a car.

Almost all of the commuter style converted bikes I have looked at are lighter once converted to electric than the original ICE package.

Most 4cly motor - gearbox packages in the 750cc range are a good 60 - 100kg depending on the age and style of bike. Then you have about 20kg or so of luiquid fuel, mufflers, radiators and a host of other crap on a gas bike.

The battery's I am thinking of using are only 45kg + about 20kg of motor and controller.

Kurt

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Post by Richo » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 21:06

offgridQLD wrote:
What about the Motenergy ME1304 liquid cooled?

Continuous Power (kW):     22,32
Peak Power (kW):     51,6

I cant find reliable data to back up those numbers so I'm skeptical.
Even the ev power datasheet only suggests 8.5kW (non water cooled specs?)

That motor suits the Gen4 Size6 96V.
The 80V controller would probably be a bit limiting for this motor.

That is better that the original motor(37kW) in my Handi and not far off the motor I have to put in it(65kW)
For about $3k that almost makes me rethink my ACIM controller + motor combo!
Esp since I loose ~15kg

I'd be suprised if you could get 35kW out of your batteries so this motor is too much for the battery.
But would be a good match for the bike if you plan to upgrade batteries later.
I'm always of the opinion to put the biggest motor in anyway. Image
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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 30 Apr 2015, 21:37

Yes I was skeptic of the specs it was a copy past from the first webpage I could find.

8.5kw sound ok as a continuous rating.

32 x 3.2v is about 105V x 40ah at 2c (80A) gives just over 8kw.

The Imiev allows 3c discharge max on its cells and my experience is other than hard acceleration and very steep hills. All steady speeds limits can be met under 1C (16kw). 100kph is about 10kw. Thats in a 1080kg car, not a bike.

I would prefer a controller that could take advantage of the full 105v nominal (so I could use all the cells) and closer to 110v hot of the charger.

I like to be more realistic about the calb cells and respect the 2c max (continuous) 1C preferred rating they have. Or you just end up shortening there life.

Kurt



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Post by Richo » Fri, 01 May 2015, 00:30

offgridQLD wrote: Yes I was skeptic of the specs it was a copy past from the first webpage I could find.


This page has the ME1302 and ME1304 with better dimensional drawings.
Interestingly the ME1302 is cheaper but has 62kW peakdue to 120V rather than 96V
Unfortunately once again this is getting out of the realm of off the shelf controllers.

http://shop.asmokarts.com/category.php?id_category=97

I'd still want more formal specs or real life tests with these motors before I'd commit to buying.
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 01 May 2015, 15:15

I was under the impression that Sevcon have or will have soon a 120v Gen 4 controller. Its mentioned as available soon and listed on some webpages.

That looks like in size 4 it would be a good match for the ME1302.

Kurt.

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 01 May 2015, 17:26

offgridQLD wrote:

32 x 3.2v is about 105V x 40ah at 2c (80A) gives just over 8kw.

*snip*

I like to be more realistic about the calb cells and respect the 2c max (continuous) 1C preferred rating they have. Or you just end up shortening there life.


you end up shortening their life - it would appear to be rather non linear too

In my orignal vectrix conversions I used 42 x 40Ah cells
A vectrix draws 60 - 80A continuous @ 130V to maintain 100kmh

Now after around 50'000km many of these battery packs that have had sustained high current use either have majorly reduced capacity, and/or increased internal resistance - near retirement in other words

All the 42 x 60Ah conversions (including mine) are still in service, with less capacity loss and higher mileage (mine has done 100'000km and capacity is still around 50Ah)

1C continuous seems to be the magic number to stay below - mind you cells have improved a great deal on 4 years ago.

If you want something cheap and easy to make - vectrix lithium with 100km range @ 100kmh is around $6000

Obviously not as challenging as rolling your own

Oh - and bike energy efficiency is good even at high speed

My vectrix has a lifetime average of 8kwh/100km or 80wh/km

If I drove my iMiev the way I ride my bike, it would use 16kwh/100km or 160wh/km
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 01 May 2015, 17:53

Like I mentioned befor the Imiev looks dorky enough as it is. So a scooter is out of the question. I'm not to keen an owning a 2nd geek machine Image

Sounds like the bikes consume way more energy than I was assuming. My long term average in my Imiev is about 100whr km ( from the battery) and at 1080kg can drive at 100kph at the same consumption as your scooter (130v x80A).Image

As it wold have really just been a project to make use of the 32 - 40ah calb cells.I might Just have to assign the little cells to stationary storage (camper van) If 1c is all they are good for with any reasonable life expectancy.

kurt
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Post by antiscab » Fri, 01 May 2015, 18:00

offgridQLD wrote:
Sounds like the bikes consume way more energy than I was assuming. My long term average in my Imiev is about 100whr km ( from the battery) and at 1080kg can drive at 100kph at the same consumption as your scooter (130v x80A).Image


ah, mine is 80wh/km measured at the power point

pushing air out of the way is what takes real power - do you spend much time at 100kmh or above?

80kmh and below is where bikes really come into their own
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Post by offgridQLD » Fri, 01 May 2015, 18:15

No legal limit in QLD (well around Brisbane) is 100kph so not much over that unless merging into freeway trafic where I always peg the full 135kph limiter on the Imiev for a few seconds to safely merge in.

Though for the most part you struggle to get any time at the 100kph speed limit in most areas as everyone just dribbles along or its just to congested.

I would say my true average speed would be about 50kph. Considering all the stop start and slow speed limits 60 - 80 with some 100kph zones.

Kurt




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Post by Richo » Sat, 02 May 2015, 00:14

offgridQLD wrote: I was under the impression that Sevcon have or will have soon a 120v Gen 4 controller. Its mentioned as available soon and listed on some webpages.

Yeah it seems that the 120V are a "special" made to order.
No prices no lead times.
offgridQLD wrote: That looks like size 4 would be a good match for the ME1302.

I have made some more inquiries regarding the ME1302 specs.
If the ME1302 turns out to be good then i'll look into the 120V Sevcon Controller further.
Hopefully I'll have some more info next week.

Any of the ME1302,ME1304,ME1114,ME1115 would be ok for the bike anyway.
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Post by Richo » Mon, 04 May 2015, 21:06

I have started another thread regarding the ME1302/1304 motors.
viewtopic.php?title=motenergy-me1302-me ... 532#p56722

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 03 Nov 2016, 22:06

This project was on the back burner for a while as I had been preoccupied with solar offgrid and other projects.

Though now things have settled down and I have had time to ponder different ways to use some of my old EV components and work out what kind of additional leisure EV I would like to build and get the most use from.

A bit of history as a teenager I grew up on several hundred acres. Part of that land included a very large hill (around 500m elevation) and very steep and in places rocky terrain ( every now and then they hold DH mountain bike events on the land)

For several years the Motorbike of choice on the farm was the trials bike. Extremely low geared light weight (70kg) and very torqey 250cc bikes that more or less didn't have a seat as you stood up most of the time tacking obstacle and steep climbs. I got reasonably good at it though never bothered to get involved in any club level events as I guess I didn't see the need given I had access to the land anytime.

Now I have my own small bit of land (a lot of it very steep and rocky) along with endless places near by for trials riding even a trails coarse just a stones throw away. So perhaps a trails bike would be a good project for me in 2017.

So a few days ago it got my thinking I wonder if anyone has built a Electric trials bike. Sure enough there were a few examples. One production example that got my attention was the Electric motion 5.7.

Some digging around I found that it uses the a simple inexpensive Golden motor 5KW BLDC Motor - HPM5000B. The motor then drives a jack shaft via a toothed belt for reduction then onto a 10 or 11 tooth sprocket and chain drive to the rear wheel.

From what I can see they are just using a Sherco 250cc trails bike frame unmodified (or a copy of it) Very simple drive line that I have most of the parts for all ready from other projects.

Given the simplicy of a trials bike and the need for high torque but very low speeds 55kph max. The example production bike only uses 48v battery. There isn't a real need for huge range on a trails bike (GAS versions have a tiny petrol tank) So the example I looked at had just 3 battery options 48v - 16ah , 48v 25ah or a long range version with 35ah from memory. Weight was very similar to a Gas version at around 70kg for the 25ah version.

The killer though was the price $12,000.

Yes competitive with a spanking new 2016 gas trials bike though you can get a good 2nd hand 250cc sherco trials bike for about $2000- $4000 depending on year and condition though that's a bike with a running motor in good shape. Way less for just the frame if the bike had gearbox or engine issues.

The 5KW BLDC Motor - HPM5000B is about $400 US for the liquid cooled version and about $360 for the air cooled version they used in the Electric motion 5.7. They don't seem to be using the controllers that are on offer from Golden motor webpage. I haven't narrowed that down yet but the 48v controllers look to be about $350 US.

I have several (48 all up) 10ah headway cells collecting dust. That would give me 30Ah pack at 48v.

So I think I can get away with building a nice electric trials bike for very little outlay. So now I am Looking for a 2nd Sherco to start with and will most likely order the motor. That way I can get the drive line sorted and play around with battery placement.

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Post by offgridQLD » Thu, 03 Nov 2016, 22:09


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Post by mikedufty » Thu, 03 Nov 2016, 22:28

I got an OSET 16 electric trials bike for my kids a while ago. Mostly bicycle components apart from the frame, motor mounted on the swingarm so chain geometry stays constant. Really too small and underpowered for adults. They now have a 20" version which is supposedly good fun for grown ups too. A fair bit cheaper than the one you were looking at.
The trials central forum has a heap of discussion of elecric trials bikes if you haven't found it yet. I think the home made ones are buried in the EM and OSET subforums.
http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/for ... ic-forums/

Definitely a motorsport area where electric can compete fairly well with ICE as the range requirement is low. Interesting experiments going on with real or virtual clutches to get that initial jump for competion use, but probably not needed to play on the farm.

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