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Post by T1 Terry » Sat, 24 Jan 2015, 02:51

crustovich wrote: Thanks Terry, the Dingo looks good, I can't see anything in the specs that specifies battery chemistry, so I assume I can use it for my test Lead Acid and later reprogram it for the LTO's when I get them?
Also you mention the solid state inverters from Jaycar, are they the Pure sine or the standard inverters in 800w?

The Jay Car reference was for solid state relays http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SY4086 for use with the Dingo to switch solar input up to around 80 amps with a good heat sink, beyond that you need a tunnel heat sink and fan cooling. You could either switch the on/off of an inverter like this   http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pure-Sine-Wa ... 3f1081fb33 or switch the 240vac output using a relay like this http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SY4084, which has it's good points of the inverter not trying to start up under load if the charger starts up as soon as power is supplied, but the disadvantage of wasted stand by current of nearly 1 amp eating up your solar input.
If the charger goes through a check system mode before actually starting the charging process I''d go for wiring into the on/off rocker switch in the inverter and switching that with the "G" terminals in the Dingo.
Program 4 on the charging side for the Dingo allows a lot of adjustments to bulk, absorption and float voltages and the length of the absorption stage from mins to 4hrs. They are quite a good bit of gear for the money, and best of all, they are Aust made, so a call to the help desk puts you in touch with an Aussie speaking engineer if it's a really tricky question, but the young lady on the switch can answer just about any question you throw at her, a very switch on company.

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Post by crustovich » Mon, 26 Jan 2015, 23:51

Thanks for the info and links, makes it very easy to see what you are talking about. Bit confused with the solid state relay, why do I need to switch solar input up to 80 amps?

The plan is to put all this (Dingo, Inverter, relay and battery/s) into a ventilated steel box (like a tool box or ATX computer case with a thermal fan or 2) that I can put behind one of the rear wheels and lock it through the wheel "spokes" with a bike lock. Is this feasible or is there too much heat involved/ components that don't play well together?
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Post by T1 Terry » Tue, 27 Jan 2015, 01:24

crustovich wrote: Thanks for the info and links, makes it very easy to see what you are talking about. Bit confused with the solid state relay, why do I need to switch solar input up to 80 amps?

The plan is to put all this (Dingo, Inverter, relay and battery/s) into a ventilated steel box (like a tool box or ATX computer case with a thermal fan or 2) that I can put behind one of the rear wheels and lock it through the wheel "spokes" with a bike lock. Is this feasible or is there too much heat involved/ components that don't play well together?

I believe you were planning to use 600w of solar for a 12vdc nom. system, that means you need to handle between 35 amps and 40 amps of solar input. This link will show you how the solid state relay is connected http://www.plasmatronics.com.au/downloa ... .V1.11.pdf I would skip running through the Dingo and just run it all through the solid state relay.
A small computer fan will move enough air to keep the relay cool

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Post by crustovich » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 01:27

Ok, have got the 1000/2000w Pure Sine Inverter.
When I hook it up to a fully charged battery (12V17AH showing around 14V) It will run a 17w Flouro Light fine, but if I hook it up to the car charger, the car charge controller will go through its boot up sequence, then charge for about 20sec then the Inverter will alarm and the charge controller will throw an error.
While this is happening, an ammeter on the battery is jumping around a bit but doesn't seem to go below the inverters 10v cut-out, the watts only gets to about 6 (hooked up to the flouro it is showing 17w as expected).
If I try running a 2000w heat gun off the battery/inverter, it (the inverter) alarms and cuts out straight away.
The Car charger is drawing around 2200w when connected to the grid.
Is the battery the likely culprit, or do I need to reduce the draw the charger is asking of the 1000w inverter? I assumed the inverter would only give what it had in wattage?
Last edited by crustovich on Tue, 10 Feb 2015, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 03:25

You can't get the full 1000w out of an ebay 1,000w inverter, they measure them by how much power they draw from the battery at full power. The 2,000w part is someone imagination run wild, it's milisecs it can handle that over load, and then it's again measure on the input side, not the output side.
To run your 2200w charger you will need one of these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/360771967853 ... 1439.l2648 as they have a heavy toroidal transformer that can better handle the peak power demands for longer periods than the electronic light weight units.

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Post by antiscab » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 05:14

what current does your EVSE ask the car to draw?

even 6A is 1450W (6A is the lowest the J1772 standard covers)

be aware that when the car charger powers up, it will ramp up the current to the current requested by the EVSE - which is why it takes 20 sec for the inverter to trip out

so basically, the charger ramps current up to 6A or 10A (depending upon your EVSE) and once the current gets beyond the 4A the inverter is capable of the inverter shuts down

basically, you need a bigger inverter
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Post by crustovich » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 17:30

So the general consensus is the 3000w/9000w inverter will do the job?
Also I notice the one you linked, Richo has a built in 40A charger, would that mean I don't need the Dingo? I already have the 3-32 relay.
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Post by Johny » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 18:55

Just thought meandering here....
If you have 600W of panels and we assume say that you will get 500W for 5 hours....that's 2500W - into the battery.

The 2500W solar might be 90% efficient so 2250W - thats 187AH. The car will draw around 2500W so lets just guess at 200A from the 12V battery. Puekart factor will also mean that more will come OUT of the 12V battery than went in. (I realise I'm assuming Lead Acid here). Then there is the car charger efficiency.

Anyway. Overall IMO you will be lucky to add 2.5kWh to the battery on a good day. Is it really worth all this considering you are already dragging around a petrol generator? (Not to mention the chiropractor bills and increased chance of injury in an accident.)

If it were a pure battery vehicle I would understand.

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Post by Richo » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 20:30

I think the lead sled is for testing purposes.
It's also why I suggest a smaller pack that charges a number of times per day.
Then it is left in the car park for a number of days.
Get back and the car is fully charged.

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Post by crustovich » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 21:01

Yes Richo's right, the car will be parked in the sun for 4 days at a stretch and the panels will stay on the roof most of the time (folding over to cover the windscreen when parked) so the chiro won't get a look in.
Yes from a purely financial/comfort viewpoint, it doesn't make sense, but you could run the same argument about the last 10 years of EV development, and now the EV/Hybrid is about to become the biggest game in town.
I just like the idea of it sitting there passively collecting its energy for the trip home, and keeping the sun/weather off the cabin, and learning as I tinker with stuff.....
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Post by Johny » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 21:05

crustovich wrote:....I just like the idea of it sitting there passively collecting its energy for the trip home, and keeping the sun/weather off the cabin, and learning as I tinker with stuff.....
Fair enough. Don't get me wrong - this discussion and development are interesting especially for battery only EVs..

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Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 21:32

crustovich wrote: So the general consensus is the 3000w/9000w inverter will do the job?
Also I notice the one you linked, Richo has a built in 40A charger, would that mean I don't need the Dingo? I already have the 3-32 relay.

The charger in the inverter runs off mains, you still need the Dingo to control charging of the battery, especially if it's going to be over a prolonged period as the traction battery and cycling battery will end up fully charged so the solar will need to be controlled. If it was just a day I think you could connect the solar up direct as the traction battery would take all the solar could produce, plus the losses involved.
Have you sourced the solar panels yet? I have just finished fitting up 980w of Sacred Solar light weight panels to a caravan roof and 200w to checkerplate for portables and the output is quite impressive.

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Post by crustovich » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 21:49

Yes Terry I have got the panels, the ones I got fit nicely into the boot when dismantled, as I mentioned, I plan for the array to stay on the roof for the shorter trips to work, but with the option to remove it and stow it in the back for longer "higher speed" trips, and these 100w panels were the only ones I could find with the right size and price.
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Post by Adverse Effects » Wed, 11 Feb 2015, 23:47

crustovich wrote: Yes Richo's right, the car will be parked in the sun for 4 days at a stretch and the panels will stay on the roof most of the time (folding over to cover the windscreen when parked)


all i see there is

"the car will be unattended for 4 days at a time giving me (any thief) 4 days to work out how to get them off the car and home"

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Post by mikedufty » Thu, 12 Feb 2015, 00:44

Maybe you should read the whole thread? I think he mentioned it is in private secure parking.
There are plenty of solar panels sitting around permanently on house roofs if you really want to steal one.

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Post by Adverse Effects » Thu, 12 Feb 2015, 00:59

mikedufty wrote: Maybe you should read the whole thread? I think he mentioned it is in private secure parking.
There are plenty of solar panels sitting around permanently on house roofs if you really want to steal one.


speaking from a mis spent childhood where it was a Saturday night thing to go in to the city and go car to car in the secure car parks (that is where the cars with the most money in the ash try where) and make pocket money for the next week

just because it says "secure parking" dont meen no one can get to your car

as for the panels there 6' off the ground and the ones on houses are 25'+ off the ground and usually mounted a lot tougher than anything sitting on the roof of a car and yes i have read the full thread and watched it with intrest
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Post by crustovich » Thu, 12 Feb 2015, 01:19

I do take your point Adverse Effects,
Although the Parking lot has monitored security cameras, and being at an airport, has staff entering and leaving 24/7, and staff bus every 15 minutes, I plan to have the panels locked to the frame (possibly using sliding window bolt locks) which in turn is locked to the lockable roof-racks , but I am yet to finalize the system (only got the panels the other day). Not a bullet proof system, but there is a good chance they would set off the car alarm trying to pry them off the roof, and then trying to walk past the cameras with a bunch of bulky solar panels under their arm trying to look nonchalant at 2 in the morning....
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Post by T1 Terry » Thu, 12 Feb 2015, 01:46

We had the local lads try to nick a few portable panels set up in the front yard, and they were just sitting there. The got the broken one, but the others were too heavy/bulking to make the running get away, so we collected them from across the road :lol: We fitted stainless cables and locks to join it all into one lump and that made it far too bulky and heavy to go anywhere

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Post by crustovich » Fri, 13 Feb 2015, 23:20

Terry, the Inverter arrived today and it's huge and weighs 25kg, so is not suitable for lifting in and out of the car.
Will one of electronic lightweight units like this:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pure-Sine-Wa ... 417a9449b1
not work?
Otherwise Johny's comments about the chiropractor will be real!
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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 13 Feb 2015, 23:59

Why do you need to lift it in and out of the vehicle? I thought the idea was to have it mounted inside the vehicle, the solar feed into the battery pack, when the voltage rises high enough it turns the charger on and this does a partial recharge, stops, recharges the battery and the cycle starts again. Why does it need to frequently removed from the vehicle?
The light weight unit you linked to will power something that will run from a 10 amp powerpoint, as long as there are no high start up loads etc like powering up capacitors or any other device with a high inrush current, they have virtually no over load capability and the 3000w inlet produces not much more than 2400w output I'm afraid, but they are great heat generators Image

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Post by Adverse Effects » Sat, 14 Feb 2015, 01:05

T1 Terry wrote: but they are great heat generators Image

T1 Terry


that is another thing you will have to keep an eye on the internal temp of the car

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Post by crustovich » Sat, 14 Feb 2015, 02:06

The plan is to have the whole system external to the car.
1.The car is new and under warranty which would be void if I start cutting holes in it for cabling.
2. 25kg is a lot to permanently lug around, and would take up a not insignificant portion of the boot area.
From a previous post:
"The plan is to put all this (Dingo, Inverter, relay and battery/s) into a ventilated steel box (like a tool box or ATX computer case with a thermal fan or 2) that I can put behind one of the rear wheels and lock it through the wheel "spokes" with a bike lock"
The 25kg inverter would make the system unusable IMO.
So before I purchase inverter no.3, is the electronic one going to work?
- The J1772 charger is 10amp,
- I don't know about start up load, can I read this somewhere?
- The constant load (as per my "clever watts"reader) is around 2200w.
- If it's in a steel box with fans, is the heat going to be an issue?
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Post by T1 Terry » Sat, 14 Feb 2015, 02:29

I have no idea about the start up loads or momentary loads, that is someone else's area of expertise, the steel or better aluminium box, with well designed vents to keep out water, 50*C thermostats to power the fans and sufficient baffling etc to ensure the cold air comes I one end and goes out the other and no recirculation at all, and it will work just fine. May I suggest lags to get it off the ground and some form of ant/cockroach proofing as they just love these type of things to nest in.
My vision of how the whole thing would work. An aluminium box pivoted off the rear tow bar, sits on an adapter on the towbar tongue, locks to the right hand side along with a clamp for a jockey wheel. Access to the rear involves dropping the jockey wheel to the ground, removing the locking device and swinging the box away to the left. When the set up was not required, a set up to the left of the vehicle parking spot where the box swung onto a rack where it could be secured and the hinge pin removed leaving the vehicle for use box free. This would mean all connections were external to the vehicle so every thing was removable and no permanent scares left on the vehicle

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Post by rhills » Tue, 17 Feb 2015, 07:46

T1 Terry wrote: I have no idea about the start up loads or momentary loads, that is someone else's area of expertise..
I'm no expert, but I'll have a crack at defining these... the real experts can point out where I'm wrong :-)
Startup Load: A lot of electrical equipment draws more current when it's starting up than it does when it's up and running. The Startup Load would be the maximum current (and perhaps length of time?) the given bit of equipment consumes while starting up.

Momentary Load: Most electrical equipment will rumble along drawing current within a relatively narrow range. Occasionally, when working extra hard, it may draw much more current, outside the normal range for a short period of time. A momentary load figure will be the maximum expected current (and probably duration) This may of course be the same as the Startup Load.

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Post by T1 Terry » Tue, 17 Feb 2015, 15:33

Sounds like a good explanation Rob, thankyou. The actual figures was the bit I didn't know as they need to be accounted for when sizing a light weight inverter as they don't have the long duration over load capabilities of the heavy weight transformer type inverters. Even though the start up load may only last for 30ms, it's still too much for the light weight inverters, their over load capacity is maybe 5ms at the best, no idea why they even bother listing it as it's such a short overload time it's useless. I have even had them shut down when trying to power up an electric stove element rated close to the inverters max load rating, the in rush current is beyond their overload capability, so capacitor charging is way outside their scope of operation unless it is fitted with a precharge circuit, not in your average off the shelf design.

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