What an EVSE provides

How do you store and manage your electricity?
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

Tasmania has 'liquids' not just water ! Image
UWA at least states 'do not run extension leads where exposure to water is likely' UWA policy also requires reporting of and RCD trip.

Both state extension lead must be uncoiled. I guess Bob does that. Image

Re use of extension lead and 10A socket. You told me that it was fine ! See, I do take notice of you, even if you are wrong. Can and should are not the same. Image
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Post by jonescg »

The fuel tax is a pretty silly way to collect revenue for roads, especially as electric propulsion becomes more common. But applying a separate tax to electricity through your EVSE is a rather inefficient way of doing it. Most people will be happy to pay something for the privilege of driving on public roads, but how they pay it should really be proportional to how far they drive in addition to the vehicle weight. After all, the more a road is used the more maintenance it demands.

So surely, submitting an odometer reading at every rego payment would suffice? Then charge a cents-per-kilometer rate accordingly. I drive about 6000 km a year, if that, so my contribution would be much smaller than that of Tuarn's, who drives >40,000 km a year. Who cares what you power your vehicles with; it's the road usage that costs the public purse.
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

Hi,
I have to make a comment on the roll-up-extension-lead-under-the-bonnet idea: it sucks!
If any lead is still wound up, there is a big risk of a fire.

regards Doug
ps: pls do not put any ideas into ´their´ heads. No Bureaucratic or Govt involvement in my pleasure pls!

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Post by Jeff Owen »

acmotor wrote: After all, they haven't put road tax on LPG yet
From the RACQ:

From 1 July 2012, the excise on LPG will go up to 5cpl and then increase by 2.5cpl annually to a maximum 12.5cpl on 1 July 2015.


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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

Well there you go... EV energy watch out !
Yeah, showing my age there. There used to be no excise.Image A 2.5c/l came in in 2011 to be incremented until 2015, unless our misguided masters stay in power and they need to make it 38c/l for revenue, same as petrol (not to be spent on roads)!

Surely it is the weight of the vehicle that is the #1 cost factor in the engineering of road construction and maintenance.
e.g. a 60 tonne truck will do 1000 times the damage to a road and have cost maybe 100 times more for the road / bridge construction. Even the lowley public transport bus probably out costs the vehicles it replaces in terms of road engineering. Perhaps its emissions are not much improvement over the modern car pool it replaces, given its often 'empty' travels, let alone the (potentially) zero emissions an EV !

This is a sore point and part of the reason rail suffers. Trucks don't pay for their true road useage.
So a km based road levy is not the way to go. (I have to say that Image)

Oh yeah, a trivia point. Perth electric trains run regen braking. Good.
bga sent me a snippet of logged data showing that for a typical station stop of a 150 tonne train it regenerates just over 14kWh. Enought to drive my i 100km. Image perhaps not that bad if the train is full.

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jonescg
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Post by jonescg »

No, just fitter Image

You would have to agree that damage to a road is the product of a vehicle's weight and how often its used? We already charge based on weight at rego renewal, but in the absence of a fuel excise there is no way of accounting for usage rates.
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Post by woody »

jonescg wrote:You would have to agree that damage to a road is the product of a vehicle's weight and how often its used?
It varies quite a lot in road construction, e.g. fully engineered road construction such as freeways and concrete roads cost a lot to build handle a lot of "kilogram kilometres" per maintainance dollar.
Compare a fire trail or dirt road which doesn't see much traffic but requires maintenance due to rain. And the usual suburban road which is bitumen over compacted gravel is somewhere in between.

Also you do more road damage when you accelerate (brake / turn / climb / descend) than simply rolling at constant speed. Fuel excise takes this into account somewhat.

If you are doing huge distances then it would be safe to assume you do most of them on freeways / highways which are well engineered and don't require much stopping/starting.
We already charge based on weight at rego renewal, but in the absence of a fuel excise there is no way of accounting for usage rates.
Er, those little numbers under your speedo are your total distance travelled, these are recorded with your rego renewal :-P

This is how it works in NZ, AFAIK - you pay per distance. This is for Diesels and EVs. (In OZ you get a tax rebate if you are using diesel for non-transport uses)

To me some (publicly available) function of distance, weight, fuel type would be fair, proportional to distance is probably a fair approximation.
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Post by jonescg »

woody wrote: Er, those little numbers under your speedo are your total distance travelled, these are recorded with your rego renewal :-P


Really? I've never had to disclose the odometer, either in Qld or WA. Mind you the year of manufacture sort of gives it away (1974, 1988...)
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Post by woody »

jonescg wrote:
woody wrote: Er, those little numbers under your speedo are your total distance travelled, these are recorded with your rego renewal :-P


Really? I've never had to disclose the odometer, either in Qld or WA. Mind you the year of manufacture sort of gives it away (1974, 1988...)
I think in NSW they use it for stats. It would be hard to tell in my car (5.1 digit Miles) whether I had done 8046km, 168,981km, or even 329,915km.
I doubt the NSW system is set up for Miles or if the mechanic knows he is meant to translate...

I dug up some stats last year for Aus, from memory about 1/2 the km are done by 5% of the cars, most of the km are done by cars under 3 years old:
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Post by acmotor »

jonescg wrote: No, just fitter Image

You would have to agree that damage to a road is the product of a vehicle's weight and how often its used? We already charge based on weight at rego renewal, but in the absence of a fuel excise there is no way of accounting for usage rates.


Fitter ? well you would be after 30,000km Image

Damage to roads is all about weight #1.
i.e. 100,000 or more push bikes ridden along a road do less damage than one truck. You would identify with that. Even a push bike ridden 30,000km up and down the road. It is simple strength of materials mechanics.
It is all about the stress strain curve of the road surfce and the substrate. Light loading keeps you low in the elastic area. Ideal for essentially non elastic road materials. Heavy loading places you in the top of elastic and locally into the plastic area. This results in fatigue of the materials. Overloading places you in the destructive zone of plastic failure.
That is why the weights and measures section of road transport come down heavy on overloaded truck axles. An overloaded axle driven Perth to Darwin can do millions of $ damage.
Purching the stress strain curve higher to cope with heavy vehicles costs a lot more in road/bridge construction.
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Post by jonescg »

Yes, absolutely a heavy vehicle can do plenty of damage to a road, I get that. But if that vehicle drove that same road 5 days a week for a year that's 260 times more damage.

We already pay higher rego for heavier vehicles, ipso facto, the weight of the vehicle and its impact on publicly funded infrastructure is factored in. The other part of the damage equation is usage rates, which currently the fuel excise deals with by proxy. In the absence of a fuel excise (when we all go electric) some other cost recovery scheme relating to road usage is needed.

I would much prefer to pay for my road usage based on (GVM / axel number) * km travelled over a pair of wires tapped into my expensive EVSE Image.
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acmotor
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Post by acmotor »

I'm not certain you follow the vehicle weight vs road damage concept. It is not at all linear. As such, heavy transport does not pay anywhere near enough either in rego or fuel excise for the proportion of damage (and initial infrastructure cost). Until it does, other transport such as rail will suffer.

Just think for a minute..... kWh in an EV is very much linked to vehicle mass x km. That is what you wanted ! Actually I can see there being a taxing mechanism based on that in the future. Not looking forward to it, just saying it will come.

Another trivia... a super tanker provides the equivalant of 1000mpg/tonne of cargo carried. Makes cars and trucks look silly.
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Post by bladecar »

Somewhere, fairly recently, I came across the suggestion that supertankers are the most polluting mode of transport on the planet, because there are no regulations whatsoever on their propulsion system's emissions. Imagine a 3 litre single in a motorcycle, incredibly powerful, but a piece of sh*t in comparison to its capacity.

Edit: syntax
Last edited by bladecar on Fri, 02 Aug 2013, 04:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by antiscab »

large sea going vessels like tankers and container carriers burn bunker fuel, which is basically the crap left over after refining crude

cheap fuel, which is important since big ships burn a colossal amount of it

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Post by bladecar »

Hi Matt,

They might burn a whole lot less of it if there were emissions regulations on the ships.

It would be interesting to recognise the damage from an oil tanker.

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Post by acmotor »

Monster diesel engines in big ships are around 50% efficient. Compare that to 25 to 30% best case in vehicles. That is a big starting point.
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Post by jonescg »

acmotor wrote: I'm not certain you follow the vehicle weight vs road damage concept. It is not at all linear. As such, heavy transport does not pay anywhere near enough either in rego or fuel excise for the proportion of damage (and initial infrastructure cost). Until it does, other transport such as rail will suffer.
...Never mind.
acmotor wrote: Just think for a minute..... kWh in an EV is very much linked to vehicle mass x km. That is what you wanted ! Actually I can see there being a taxing mechanism based on that in the future. Not looking forward to it, just saying it will come.
Scary thought. I'll charge my EVs by direct solar if it comes to that.
acmotor wrote:Another trivia... a super tanker provides the equivalant of 1000mpg/tonne of cargo carried. Makes cars and trucks look silly.


And they are at their most efficient when they travel at 30 km/h. About what sailing ships achieved 100 years ago...
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Post by g4qber »

Bosch cheaper EVSEs
but they don't ship to aus...yet.

US$489 16A
http://bit.ly/13GZuoZ

US$643 30A - 18 foot cable
http://bit.ly/16oreE0

US$849 30A - 25 foot cable
http://bit.ly/13GZO72
Last edited by g4qber on Fri, 02 Aug 2013, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by acmotor »

g4qber is doing his best to keep us on topic ! Image
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Post by g4qber »

http://www.plugincars.com/inexpensive-c ... 27891.html



"EVSEs are, in a way, glorified on-off switches, and it's the on-board charger mounted in the car which controls how fast it charges

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Post by Adverse Effects »

acmotor wrote: g4qber is doing his best to keep us on topic ! Image


yes but 47+ posts in less than 7 days and most of them starting new threads and most of them could be combined in to a few threads

its getting to the point i am looking for the ignore member button Image
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Post by Lismore_Doug »

Had a look at the link:
http://www.plugincars.com/inexpensive-c ... 91.html%20
Could not believe they could not find the information on building the unit, or sourcing the parts. It seems some of these people want to have things handed to them on a plate...(its all on the site, but is a bit buried)
...mind you I am still waiting on my Open-EVSE Kit! Ordered about 3 weeks ago, & received an email saying it was almost ready to ship then....hopefully should turn up soon. I have the J1772 plug & 3M cable, as well as the relays, switches & a suitable box: just need the (Arduino based) control board.

As far as pre-built EVSE´s go: it seems realistic to have a 110v unit upgraded, at the $US297 from EVSE Upgrade. What could be done is to buy a US 110V unit which commonly only ship to the US,have it shipped to EVSE upgades, then have them ship it home to Aust.

regards Doug

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Post by antiscab »

Lismore_Doug wrote: As far as pre-built EVSE´s go: it seems realistic to have a 110v unit upgraded, at the $US297 from EVSE Upgrade. What could be done is to buy a US 110V unit which commonly only ship to the US,have it shipped to EVSE upgades, then have them ship it home to Aust.


If you're willing to spend that kinda money, you could get the EMW EVSE pre-built version

it's rather more programmable, and can handle way more power

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Post by Lismore_Doug »

Matt,
I was not impressed by the way EMW builds their chargers, so I would be unlikely to go for a pre-built EVSE from them.
fyi, what I did not like about the charger was the isilated wires going unsleeved thru the back panel: really dangerous in a car, & not even good practice for stationary projects.

The Open EVSE seems much better designed which is why I am building that. I would like a compact higher current car charger tho, to carry around. Even better if it was current selectable.

In time, I will trip over a reasonably priced faulty EVSE, & re-build it using the Open EVSE board. I reckon there would be some in Japan: wish I could access ebay there!

regards Doug

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Post by weber »

I've done it. I've invented the Dutyor(TM). Not to be confused with the dutor, a two-stringed musical instrument played in Uzbekistan.

Image

What's that you say? What am I on about, and can you have some of what I'm smoking?

Here are some quotes from earlier in this thread, by way of explanation:
Lismore_Doug wrote: Hi, On the subject of the use of a resistor for coding: The problem I see there is the possibility of a high resistance joint or failure changing the resistance. Personally I think the use of the timing pulses is quite an easy, reliable solution.
weber wrote: Thanks for responding, Doug.

I want to make the current-rating automatic and foolproof based on what type of 3 pin plug adapter is used. ... I also want to eliminate the heavy and bulky EVSE that tends to pull the plug partly out of the socket.

The problem with the J1772 duty cycle method is that it requires a +-12 Vdc power supply for the oscillator and relay, which can only be obtained from the 240 Vac mains. This power supply and relay are too big to fit in the back of a plug or inline socket and so would require a box in the short cable of each plug adapter.

By having only a resistor in each plug adapter, I can move the pilot oscillator, relay and their power supply to the handle of the J1772 gun at the car end of the charge cable, as "BetterLeaf" has done with his "BareEVSE".

I agree it's not as failsafe as the oscillator. If you can come up with a way for me to fit an oscillator and its power supply in the back of a 3-pin plug I'd love to know about it. Maybe we could feed it power on the same wire it signals on.

So that's what I've done. I've made a two terminal device, no bigger than a resistor, that pulses on and off at 1 kHz with a constant duty-cycle, when connected between earth and a 330 ohm pullup to a 3 volt DC power supply.

Instead of a resistor or capacitor, I can now use a "dutyor" to code for the current capability of various 3 pin plugs, and it will fit inside the plug, within the earth-pin sector, and connect between earth and the fourth wire (the "sense" wire). I use the same encoding of current-capability to duty cycle, as used by J1772, and the same frequency, but with a lower voltage and the power supply at the other end of the cable.

Image

This particular one is a 16.7% dutyor (representing 10 A), as you can see on the scope in the background. Since these photos were taken it has been coated in a blob of epoxy ready to go inside a plug.

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