CZal's Mazda Roadster (MX-5)

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Post by CZal » Wed, 05 May 2010, 16:11

Not sure yet... This is the area of least expertise for me... The motor shaft already has a sizable bore in the shaft, so I was looking to extend that..

No clutch would mean that the bore would be shaped with the mating to the gearbox in mind, but I'm keen to keep the clutch so the bore should be broad enough to encompass the gearbox input shaft (or cut off part of the input shaft) I need an engineer to tell me!! Any contacts Johny?? :0)

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Post by Johny » Wed, 05 May 2010, 16:17

CZal wrote:....I need an engineer to tell me!! Any contacts Johny?? :0)
Unfortunately no. I'm still waiting on the "guy around the corner" to get back to me about my motor/battery frame. He's a welder/fitter. I have elected to go direct drive and will be modifying the tail-shaft with an inline slip yoke and adapter to my motor keyed shaft. I have found a driveline shop to do that.
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Post by bga » Sun, 09 May 2010, 05:36

Hi Costa,

Welcome to the forum.

My 2c worth:

I'd rewind the motor and ditch the gearbox, 500Nm will murder it with relish. The torque is about three times the original motor's. In low gears, it'll be limited by traction, and in high gears, the strength of the gearbox.

This also makes the install problem simpler by converting it into a drive shaft extension where the shaft length on the ACIM doesn't matter.

I would expect that the big ACIM could achieve first (or second?) gear like acceleration until the battery or controller limits it. This could be as high as 0.4 or 0.5g for 0-60kph times of about 4 seconds.

The BMW 318 has a problem with 180 frame sizes (all small 4cyl motors?) I think that I'll may have to take a chunk of the foot out in the middle of the motor to accomodate the crossframe and steering. This should still leave a good 4-point mount. It's a bit too close to call without a fit trial or more measuring.

Rewinders can make the motor operate off just about any voltage and the ABB has a generous terminal box if the wires get big. I hope my rewind is OK, because it's difficult to tune if the first guess was a bit wrong.

AC Motor's 12 wire rewind is interesting, as it allows a number of voltage options.

My guess is that you will want about 180 or 200 volts delta (or star/wye?) on the rewind to get enough top end speed without the torque getting miserable or the currents insane. This sort of reqind would probably allow full torque to about 3000 RPM, batteries and controller permitting.

You should be able to run the motor without any rewind initially, making a guess at a rewind more accurate once the driving issues are known.

There might be a place for star-delta switching to allow good bottom end torque and more modest torque at high speed if the controller doesn't do so much current. My thought was that it's better to use bigger transistors and eliminate the switching relays.

One problem is that an industrial VFD for this is going to be enormous, like a small filing cabinet. I think that the solution has to be more like TJ's. My controller should be similar, but more like a clown's shoebox and not done yet.

The 600V bus knocks out the Tritium Wavesculptor 200 controller, although they may have a higher voltage unit it the pipeline. It also makes chargers and DC-DC converters more of a problem. The batter can be consfdered to be two in series to help solve this.

All of this seems to be a matter of compromise and balance.

[edit: beautified the post, now it's only ugly]

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 09 May 2010, 15:08

woody wrote: Acceleration is not a problem. With a 22kW motor you should have 500Nm of torque (if you have the current to support it).

The problem you will hit is that after the peak power @ ~1500rpm you'll start losing torque fast:
1500rpm : 500Nm
3000rpm : 125Nm
4500rpm : 55Nm

Right: peak torque falls off as the square of the speed.

However, this is classical induction motor theory, based on Direct On Line connection. With DOL, as TJ has mentioned elsewhere, you don't get to set field and armature current separately. With the right software and a VFD with position sensing, you do have independent control of these currents, to a large extent.

The reason is that you get to set the phase of the controller output relative to the position of the rotor. So you can set the power factor, which is the ratio of real to imaginary currents. The real current is basically the armature current, which contributes to mechanical output. The imaginary current basically drives the field. Don't be scared of the word "imaginary", it just means current that is 90° out of phase with the voltage, and so draws no power over a whole AC cycle. It draws plenty instantaneous power, but returns that power half a cycle later as the instantaneous field intensity reduces, a bit like regen but magnetically based and very fast. Remember also that induction motors are "inside out" compared to most motors, in that the rotor provides the magnetic field, and the stator carries the "armature" current.

My guess of TJ's speculation (so this isn't very firm Image ) is that part of the peak torque dropoff is due to a lack of field current when the motor is driven DOL. TJ states that with DOL the ratio of stator to rotor current is fixed by the ratio of resistance to inductive reactance at the DOL frequency. At higher speeds, the inductive reactance increases, so to maintain the same field, you need more imaginary voltage to get the same imaginary current. So if you have some voltage to spare (but at higher speeds, you are heading towards higher voltage already), you could possibly maintain close to nominal breakdown torque. If you are running out of voltage, just decreasing the power factor (making more of it imaginary) will increase the field at the expense of some real voltage. But reducing the voltage only decreases the power linearly with speed (as opposed to the square of the speed you expect from DOL theory). Plus, at a highish power factor, to double the imaginary current, you only need to reduce the voltage a small amount (e.g. going from a Power Factor of 0.9 to 0.8, the real voltage only decreases 10%).

In this post, TJ notes that he is already getting more than nameplate breakdown torque from the SEW motor on the dynamometer. This could be because the nameplate is conservative, but it's also an indication that with the right software, more than conventional peak power can be achieved.

If this works out, it could change somewhat how we size AC motors for EVs.

TJ... any more results to report from the dyno run? Hopefully, there was no alum^h^h^h^h^hcopper rain or smoke release.
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Post by weber » Sun, 09 May 2010, 15:13

bga wrote:I'd rewind the motor and ditch the gearbox, 500Nm will murder it with relish. The torque is about three times the original motor's. In low gears, it'll be limited by traction, and in high gears, the strength of the gearbox.
According to engineer Richard Larsen of MX-5Plus, in low gears it will also be limited by the strength of the NA-series diff. He says when guys fit superchargers to the ICE they generally come back next weekend for a new diff. A larger NB series diff can be fitted, along with shorter half-axles and shorter propshaft.

According to Richard, the standard MX-5 gearbox is very strong.
This also makes the install problem simpler by converting it into a drive shaft extension where the shaft length on the ACIM doesn't matter.

Not sure it makes the install problem simpler. Maybe about the same difficulty, just different. See zeva's conversion pages. This is because of the PPF (Power Plant Frame). In the MX-5, there is no rear gearbox mount to the chassis. Instead this alloy beam connects the rear of the gearbox to the front of the diff. The diff has two "wings" with rubber mounts. So the whole drive-train is hung on 4 rubber mounts, two at the engine and two at the diff.

This makes the adaption and coupling problem just as complicated as when keeping the gearbox and clutch. Perhaps the simplest way is to just keep the tail section of the gearbox with its mountings to the PPF and its splined connection to the propshaft and use a taperlock adapter to connect the motor shaft to the sawn-off gearbox output shaft which is likely a different diameter.
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Post by weber » Sun, 09 May 2010, 15:24

Coulomb, I don't believe there is any magic way of beating the 1/f^2 decline in torque once you hit the AC voltage limit of the battery/controller combination. I believe TJ was talking about getting better than nameplate torque at frequencies below nominal frequency by maintaining maximum voltage (until saturation becomes significant). Same as acmotor has described. I think Woody's numbers are right.
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Post by coulomb » Sun, 09 May 2010, 15:47

Ah, so what TJ is talking about is essentially "torque boost" (in Danfoss terms)?

And torque boost delivers greater than breakdown torque?
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Post by Tritium_James » Sun, 09 May 2010, 17:59

Yes, Weber has it. Once you run out of voltage there's nothing you can do, that torque is going down at 1/f². It's below that voltage is where it is interesting, as far as I can tell the breakdown torque number in the datasheet is completely irrelevant - it's entirely up to how much current the VFD can put through the motor, and how long the motor can tolerate the abuse.

So the advantage of rewinding a motor for lower voltage is that you can put out full torque (probably limited by controller current) to a higher speed. The disadvantage of rewinding for a lower voltage is that the torque you get from whatever the VFD can put out will now be less. The trade-off is going to depend on your car, gearing, batteries, etc, etc. Quite a complex decision.

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Post by woody » Mon, 10 May 2010, 03:50

And we're back to Series/Parallel and/or Star/Delta shifting which gives you the best of both worlds.
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Post by coulomb » Mon, 10 May 2010, 06:23

woody wrote: And we're back to Series/Parallel and/or Star/Delta shifting which gives you the best of both worlds.

Well, that's assuming that you are controller current limited, and are needing every bit of current from the controller.

Contactors are sufficient pain, expense, take up space, and they introduce noise and delay so that it would be great to avoid them if possible. If you have a controller like the Wavesculptor200 with 300 A RMS capability, you can afford to lose some of the torque that this could generate with the largest possible motor.

So I think that the ideal direct drive setup is approximately a medium 4-pole motor wound for maybe half what the controller can output, so some 150 VAC for the Wavesculptor200. So you get constant torque to a useful 3000 RPM, good torque, and roughly constant power (using one minute ratings, as seems to be the fashion) out to as fast as the motor will run.

Actually, maybe you are better off with a 2-pole motor wound for 300 V. You end up with the same low-end torque up to the same 3000 RPM, then the same approximately constant power. But the difference is that a 2-pole seems to have a better torque per weight ration than a 4-pole.

Huh, in this light, is there much point in overvoltaging at all, for direct drive? When keeping a gearbox, yes, because otherwise you can't use the top half of your gearbox's speed bandwidth. And you can't easily buy 100 Hz 2-pole motors, or 50 Hz 1-pole motors   Image .

Also interesting is that overvoltaging by a factor of 2 is pretty much equivalent to halving the pole count. [Edit: which is also equivalent, ignoring losses, space, expense, etc, of a 2:1 reduction gearbox.]

Unless my head cold is stuffing up my wetware again.

Edit: yep, my head-cold has done it again! I've just finished saying that this all assumes being controller limited, and then I assume that in fact you are. Of course, the advantage of overvoltaging is that you can use some of the spare current capacity of your drive to get more power from the motor. You get that a ability by changing pole count as well, and even from a gearbox, since you can make the motor and controller work at lower speeds and hence voltages, and use the extra current capability from your drive to turn it into extra power.

You can think of it this way: the Wavesculptor200 is a sort of "low impedance device" (lower voltage, higher current) compared to industrial controllers. So you need a sort of "step up transformer" to connect to a motor designed to run with higher impedance industrial controllers. This can be achieved in several ways: wiring in delta instead of Y, putting two motors or windings in parallel, using a reduction gearbox, or rewinding or rewiring for lower voltage. [Edit: or actually using a step-up transformer!] It's all about exchanging one variable that is in short supply - here voltage - for another that is in greater supply - here current.
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Post by woody » Mon, 10 May 2010, 06:34

I was hoping that series/parallel shifting would be a better overall package (weight / cost / durability / efficiency) than a 2 speed gearbox or a huge controller.
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Post by coulomb » Mon, 10 May 2010, 06:48

woody wrote: I was hoping that series/parallel shifting would be a better overall package (weight / cost / durability / efficiency) than a 2 speed gearbox or a huge controller.

Exactly. But the Wavesculptor200 has changed the parameters somewhat, don't you think? At 500 mm long it's not exactly tiny, but it takes up a very welcome lot less bulk than the 110 kW peak industrial controller we originally bought for the MX-5. It's also about 60% of the cost of the industrial. So now, using more muscle/silicon makes more sense, don't you think?

Well, perhaps it will make more sense if it eventually gets re-rated up to 200 kW, or could be pushed there with the right cooling, which I assume is how it got its name. Then for a typical 100 kW decent performance conversion, there would be a nice 100% overhead to play with. Star/delta is 1.73, so 165 kW / 1.73 is 95 kW, still pretty decent.
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Post by CZal » Mon, 10 May 2010, 19:51

Hi all,

Thanks for all your great feedback... Looks like there's a lot more to consider than originally planned (surprise, surprise!! Image )

To add to the things that get in the way, I'm up in Brisbane doing a big installation for work (that's what's been soaking up my time over the last week or so...)

BUT I can turn this into a positive.... Coulumb or Weber, I see your MX-5 conversion is here in Brisbane.... I'm here until Thursday 4:00.... Is there any chance at all we could catch up for a brief view of your car? It might give me an idea of what is acceptable performance in single gear mode vs perservering with the gearbox.... Who knows I might have a different expecatation of what is 'good' vs 'great' vs 'not so great' :0)

It would also be a great confidence booster to see a working conversion!! Let me know or give me a bell, I'm on 0432 688 376

Regs,
C.

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Post by bga » Mon, 10 May 2010, 20:29

weber wrote:According to engineer Richard Larsen of MX-5Plus, in low gears it will also be limited by the strength of the NA-series diff. He says when guys fit superchargers to the ICE they generally come back next weekend for a new diff. A larger NB series diff can be fitted, along with shorter half-axles and shorter propshaft.

According to Richard, the standard MX-5 gearbox is very strong.

...
Not sure it makes the install problem simpler. Maybe about the same difficulty, just different. See zeva's conversion pages. This is because of the PPF (Power Plant Frame). In the MX-5, there is no rear gearbox mount to the chassis. Instead this alloy beam connects the rear of the gearbox to the front of the diff. The diff has two "wings" with rubber mounts. So the whole drive-train is hung on 4 rubber mounts, two at the engine and two at the diff.

This makes the adaption and coupling problem just as complicated as when keeping the gearbox and clutch. Perhaps the simplest way is to just keep the tail section of the gearbox with its mountings to the PPF and its splined connection to the propshaft and use a taperlock adapter to connect the motor shaft to the sawn-off gearbox output shaft which is likely a different diameter.
Oops, I was forgetting about the particulars of the MX5.
Ian's adaptor was fairly elaborate.

My guess would be that a stock engine blower would not get above about 1.4x torque torque and a radical modification probably will only double it before the crank is guaranteed to depart from the motor.

What's needed is a *more* a'la' Top gear...

The 22KW ACIM with 550Nm is like putting a 5.7L V8 in the Miata.
Actually, the Holden Gen3 V8 is only a puny 446Nm!

It does look like one of these big V8s can be shoehorned into the car. See here Apart from the body, there aren't very many mazda parts left underneath.

Now all that is needed are some batteries and a controller that can cope...
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Post by weber » Tue, 11 May 2010, 03:52

CZal wrote:Coulumb or Weber, I see your MX-5 conversion is here in Brisbane.... I'm here until Thursday 4:00.... Is there any chance at all we could catch up for a brief view of your car?
...
It would also be a great confidence booster to see a working conversion!!

In case the rest of you are wondering, I invited CZal over this evening and we spent an enjoyable couple of hours poring over an MX-5 and talking shop.

CZal is fairly convinced now, that the 180 frame won't fit, and given that he's keen to get something working pretty quickly I suggested a Tritium Wavesculptor200 along with one of the low voltage 132 frame induction motors Tritium have sourced and a 300 or 400 V set of 40 Ah LiFePO4s.
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Post by Tritium_James » Tue, 11 May 2010, 04:51

Hah Weber, your kickback will arrive in a brown paper bag sometime :P

We should be able to post some info from our dyno testing of that motor sometime this week. I'll start another topic rather than hijacking an existing one...

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Post by Johny » Tue, 11 May 2010, 15:55

Thanks weber - I like to keep up with the gossip!

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Post by CZal » Tue, 11 May 2010, 17:09

Yes, thanks for the invite and greatly appreciate your hospitality Weber... Pity about that 180L frame motor.... I knew I should've bought a Jeep!! darn little cars! Image

Tritium James, look forward to seeing your motor/controller combo packs... I'm reading the thread in the other forum now :0)


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Post by CZal » Tue, 18 May 2010, 01:17

Hi all,

Well I'm back from Brisbane to sunny (but cold) Melbourne and back into the thought processes for this car.

Thank you to both Weber and Jeff Owen for showing me such wonderful hospitality while up in Brisbane together with some much needed information. A special thanks to Jeff for not only picking me up from the station and providing lively discussion but also allowing me my first drive of an EV (ever!) all the way back in to the city.

Now after much thought, it looks like my options with the equipment I've got are reasonably limited:

Pretty much, somehow, shoehorn the 180L motor I have into the car and use the Wavesculptor200 to try and drive it (at reduced voltage with 450VDC input)
My friend here at work believes the motor can still be made to fit but I think this is the least likely option as the motor should probably be re-wound to bring its efficiency up for the lower voltage

Now after reading ZEVA's advice about limiting your expectations, driving Jeff's car, weighing up my desire to get on to the road asap and struggling as much as I have to find someone who will build the motor mount I've got in CAD. I think I should make use of the ready built kits available for the miata (I know sacrilege!!) and save the big 180L for my second conversion (which will be a complete rip off of ACMotor's design Image or a JEEP, as they've got much more space, already built to carry weight AND they look cool :0)

This is mainly driven because with all the things I need to do to get this car on the road, I figure I don't need to re-design main components to get it going (gearbox adapater, shaft connector, motor mount)... I will have enough engineering to complete with the battery install and trying to make the aircon work as a reverse cycle heater..

So..... The choice is AC50 or 9" ADC or WARP, and then where to buy the motor/controller/gbox adapter from.

Now I like the idea of the AC50. It's light, gives regen and I think will provide 'adequate' performance for a first go machine. I'm not sure I like such a low input voltage to an AC motor (since I know you can overvoltage a 9" so much easier) but a 108V into an MX-5 body makes a bit of sense...

So....... has anybody dealt with any of the big o/seas suppliers of these kits, there can be up to US$500 difference between the prices and I'm not sure if there's a reason for this... Any experience (good/bad) would be helpful in trying to choose...

I've sent out some emails to various vendors today and see what comes back.... I'm kinda pricing the AC50 combo vs the 9'DC with either 500A or 1kA controller option...

C.

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Post by woody » Tue, 18 May 2010, 05:10

Hi Czal,

there's an Azure AC24 powered MX-5 converted by Ross Blade for the current owner. (my photos)

He said the performance was nearly as good as original. There's not a lot of room left.

What range are you looking for?

Adapting an ADC or Netgain to an MX-5 gearbox bellhousing should be possible with something made from a flat plate - this makes things a lot easier.

Is the Wavesculptor + SEW 7.5kW they've tested it with not an option? (pricey?)

cheers,
Woody

Edit: removed double cheers
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Post by CZal » Tue, 18 May 2010, 07:10

Hi Woody,

The Wavesculptor's an option (I'm sure I could negotiate the price down to something reasonable, couldn't I James? :0) Especially compared to the Azure kit...

It's actually more that the AC50/DC9" solutions have a readily available motor/gearbox adapter ready to purchase... My current project has completely stalled on this very basic requirement, and as said, it's the part I understand the least...

Additionally the air-cooled/lower voltage scenario lends itself to an easier (ie first time) install...

I must admit though, I've spent most of tonight on the 'all-knowing google' and the cheap and nasty DC implementation really is looking more and more attractive! A lot more HP and Torque (more bang for the buck so to speak)

Although, this could be 'cause it's 1 in the morning, I still like the motor braking/elegance of an AC solution... oh well, more research tomorrow!! (actually later on today... crikey it's late!)
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Post by Tritium_James » Tue, 18 May 2010, 16:12

CZal wrote:The Wavesculptor's an option (I'm sure I could negotiate the price down to something reasonable, couldn't I James? :0)
Heh, if you want to buy more than 10 at a time we can do you a deal! As it is at the moment everyone buying one is actually already getting the ten-off pricing.

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Post by CZal » Tue, 18 May 2010, 17:53

lol Would love to James... In all seriousness I really want to buy local....

And the higher voltage requirement/water cooling is a bit of an issue but they can both be overcome.... My biggest concern is the fact that my install has completely stalled because I can't find an engineer to help me fit a 'non-standard' motor into the car itself...

Did you say that the 7.5kw sew is a 132 frame motor? Weber, maybe you can make a quid or two providing a gearbox adapter, motor mount kit? What do you think?

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Post by weber » Tue, 18 May 2010, 22:03

CZal wrote:Did you say that the 7.5kw sew is a 132 frame motor? Weber, maybe you can make a quid or two providing a gearbox adapter, motor mount kit? What do you think?


Yes. The SEW has the same flange and the same shaft as our 132-frame motor. We will be happy to supply you with drawings for adapter plate and coupling (a new flywheel with integral 2517 taperlock hub) for free as soon as we have them. We're working on them now. And once we've build them and proved them, then we'd be happy to supply you with the made up items as well. But have no idea of cost at present.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

CZal
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Post by CZal » Tue, 25 May 2010, 04:23

weber wrote:
CZal wrote:Did you say that the 7.5kw sew is a 132 frame motor? Weber, maybe you can make a quid or two providing a gearbox adapter, motor mount kit? What do you think?


Yes. The SEW has the same flange and the same shaft as our 132-frame motor. We will be happy to supply you with drawings for adapter plate and coupling (a new flywheel with integral 2517 taperlock hub) for free as soon as we have them. We're working on them now. And once we've build them and proved them, then we'd be happy to supply you with the made up items as well. But have no idea of cost at present.


Thanks Weber,

That's very kind of you, and makes the Aussie product at least look do-able... Do you think I can solve the "gearbox hitting the top of the tunnel" issue with different motor mounts?

So if I can build the adapter plate, I'll be able to talk to Tritium James about a motor and controller... hmmmmmm....

Else quick and dirty NetGain 9" here I come!! Either way this project needs a kick start....

Although Aussie $ taking a nose dive hasn't been welcome news....

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