Brighsun 220Ah cells

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coulomb
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Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by coulomb » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 13:26

I have my 220 Ah set now. Here are some details:
  • M8 terminal thread, depth about 12.5 mm
  • Terminal spacing 78 mm
  • Terminal bolt height 9 mm (including black or red washer)
  • Vent height 17 mm!
  • Cell width 78 mm
The vent height is a bit of an issue if like me you want to use cell-top cell management units:
Brighsun 220Ah vent above sm.jpg
Brighsun 220Ah vent above sm.jpg (93.56 KiB) Viewed 639 times
   
Brighsun 220Ah vent sm.jpg
Brighsun 220Ah vent sm.jpg (116.17 KiB) Viewed 635 times
The photos show 25 mm M8 cap head screws, screwed in as far as they go. THese are the smallest M8 stainless steel bolts I could find at Bunnings. What would normally be a nuisance with the extra height might be a useful feature, if I can find an unthreaded bush or sleeve about 8 mm tall to place between the battery straps (presumed 3 mm) and the CMU.

The 78 mm terminal spacing is unusual, though with the proliferation of different cell formats these days, you could say that nothing is "standard".

[ Edit: 9 mm was supposed to include the black or red washer; corrected text and photo. ]
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by jonescg » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 13:30

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 13:26

The vent height is a bit of an issue if like me you want to use cell-top cell management units:
Nah - just pack it out with a dozen zinc plated washers! :P
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by coulomb » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 13:40

jonescg wrote:
Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 13:30
Nah - just pack it out with a dozen zinc plated washers! :P
I thought about that, but there is the issue of dissimilar metals. Stainless steel washers could be used, but 32 stacks of them could add up to a stack of cash :(
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by weber » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 15:34

I think zinc plated washers will be OK if you use jointing compound to exclude air and moisture from between the dissimilar metals. You have to do that between the copper and aluminium anyway.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by jonescg » Thu, 19 Jul 2018, 16:23

In all seriousness though, I think you can buy thick walled aluminium tube from Bunnings or the like with an 8 mm diameter hole. You could put that on top of the buslink and then put the cell top monitor on top of that. The M8 bolt would tighten all of them down with NoAlOx or carbon-based grease.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by rhills » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 00:21

Can you make PCBs in shapes other than rectangular?

Could you make a cell-top monitor in a broad U-shape to fit around the vent?
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by coulomb » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 06:41

rhills wrote:
Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 00:21
Can you make PCBs in shapes other than rectangular?
Sure. Here is a panel of our LyteFyba CMUs:

Panel of CMUs.png
Panel of CMUs.png (14.93 KiB) Viewed 589 times
Could you make a cell-top monitor in a broad U-shape to fit around the vent?
You could, or even a rectangular-ish shape with a hole for the vent to pop through. The problem is that it's then a very specialised board, specific that that one (perhaps two) type(s) of cell. LyteFyba was designed to be very general, accommodating a wide range of cell sizes:

CMU dimensions sm.png
CMU dimensions sm.png (42.41 KiB) Viewed 589 times
You can use various pairs of holes, using one or other end of a slot, snap off one end, or punch through a 10 mm hole for Greg Macdonald's 50 Ah cells. Alas, we (Weber and I) didn't foresee the need for a cell with 78 mm terminal spacing and M8 bolts. We have boards already made up, so I think we can just extend one of the holes for my set of 16.

[ Edit: Added a sentence about how to accommodate the various cell sizes and terminal spacings. ]
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by weber » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 07:03

[Edit: I didn't see Coulomb's post above until I had completed this post.]
rhills wrote:
Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 00:21
Can you make PCBs in shapes other than rectangular?

Could you make a cell-top monitor in a broad U-shape to fit around the vent?
Sure. We could even make them with a hole in the middle for the vent. But there's a significant manufacturing setup cost for any new design, and the CMUs we already have, in stock, were designed to fit almost anything.

Image

With the idea of standoffs or stacks of washers, Coulomb is presumably considering using the hole at 112 on the ruler, and either breaking out the piece at 185, or filing both holes towards each other by 1 mm so that the terminal bolts are at 113 and 191 (78 mm apart). I'm referring to the lowest CMU in the image above.

But they were also designed for another option, which doesn't require standoffs or washers. They can be bolted to one terminal only, and have flying leads to the other terminal, using a piece designed to be snapped off, and have wires soldered for this purpose. In this case you'd snap off the piece at 103 for the negative terminal, and bolt the CMU to the positive terminal using the hole at 193, swung to one side of the vent, at about 45 degrees.

That suggests a third option. The spec sheet says the cells are 78 mm wide. Pythagoras says that makes it 110 mm between diagonally opposite terminals. The two outermost CMU holes would reach if they were filed away from each other by 2 mm each. 85 and 195 on the ruler.

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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by weber » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 07:19

coulomb wrote:
Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 06:41
Alas, we (Weber and I) didn't foresee the need for a cell with 78 mm terminal spacing and M8 bolts.
I beg to differ. The snap-off-with-flying-leads option allows for any terminal spacing, only with less convenience.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by coulomb » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 11:04

weber wrote:
Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 07:03
That suggests a third option. The spec sheet says the cells are 78 mm wide. Pythagoras says that makes it 110 mm between diagonally opposite terminals. The two outermost CMU holes would reach if they were filed away from each other by 2 mm each. 85 and 195 on the ruler.
That's clever. There would be a zig-zag of CMUs, with the zags on top of the zigs, if that makes sense. Though you need to do something tricky for the last CMU of each row. One stack of washers seems like the obvious way.

But there is a way of avoiding the tedious filing of every bolt hole. If you offset every second cell by about 5.5 mm, the diagonals will be shorter and the CMU bolt holes don't need filing. I'll have to find a source of 16 mm bolts, though. I believe that they are available on-line. Edit: for example here (also available much cheaper by the hundred).
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by lobster » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 12:11

Hi, Steve in Adelaide here with a set of 220Ah cells.

I have a photo here showing 8mm stainless steel studs nuts and washers that would permit BMS shunting modules to be fitted across cell terminals.

I am using stainless steel fittings, they are shown as inert on a chart of reactive metals .

I have used Alvania ALV300 jointing paste to exclude air and moisture from the copper/brass and aluminium terminal posts.

I have not seen these CMUs before, I will have to read the thread now. viewtopic.php?title=weber-coulombs-lytefyba-bms&t=4302

Cheers, Steve
SS Studs Nut & Washers.jpg
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by rhills » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 12:42

When I first put my hand up for a bunch of these cells, I thought "I wonder if @weber and @coulomb's LyteFYba CMU would be good for these". Well I actually thought "I wonder if Weber and Coulomb's little BMS thingy would be good for these" :D

I was a bit disheartened to see your post highlighting this "feature" of our Brightsun cells which would impinge on any cell-top BMS/CMU that I've ever seen so it's not just LyteFyba that's affected. As a bear of little brain who only got to about level 2 at Meccano in his childhood, I would prefer to avoid something messy involving lots of extra spacing nuts/washers/bushes. That also raises the height of the whole setup which can compromise positioning of the batteries.

We recently replaced the AGMs in our motorhome with Lithiums and precisely this issue resulted in us only being able to install 75% of the capacity I was hoping for, though I accept that homes usually have less space restriction than vehicles.

When I made the comment about making a "u-shaped" version, I naively thought that it would just be a bit of tweaking in the design software, post to the manufacturer and get a few spat out. I'd forgotten about the setup costs.

That said, what kind of overhead is involved? With this batch of specific batteries being spread around AEVA members, might there be enough interest in this little marketplace to spread those overheads thin enough to make it worth doing?
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by 4Springs » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 15:22

rhills wrote:
Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 12:42
When I made the comment about making a "u-shaped" version, I naively thought that it would just be a bit of tweaking in the design software, post to the manufacturer and get a few spat out. I'd forgotten about the setup costs.

That said, what kind of overhead is involved? With this batch of specific batteries being spread around AEVA members, might there be enough interest in this little marketplace to spread those overheads thin enough to make it worth doing?
With the Low Cost BMS (tm), my intention is to make a U-shaped circuit board, or possibly one with a hole. I don't have any boards made up, so it will indeed be just a tweak in the design software and then send it off to be made.
I happen to have the big Brighsun cells as well as the small ones here at the moment, and can confirm that the terminal spacing is the same. The vent is a bit different on some of the large ones, made of plastic and even higher.

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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by jonescg » Fri, 20 Jul 2018, 16:17

Just remember guys, the bus links joining one cell terminal to the next need to bolt to the brass surface for maximum contact and thermal conductivity. If you are going to space things out with nuts / washers / spacers make sure the buslinks are on the bottom of the stack, being the first thing in contact with the cell terminal. I daresay the electrical conductivity of a stainless steel bolt of a zinc plated washer will be pretty low compared to copper or aluminium.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by bigjsl » Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 21:12

I have bought 16 Batrium BMS modules of the terminal + flylead variety. I'm having some regret because it would have been easier to use the dual flylead modules but it doesn't matter.

I'm planning on using aluminium links like Steve. Thanks for the Alvania tip :-)

My PIP inverter just arrived and I have acquired 6 kw of 250 watt solar panels. I know that's more than the PIP can handle. I'm planning on a second PIP and I kinda acquired the second set of panels unintentionally.

Any suggestions on strapping the 400Ah cells?

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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by bigjsl » Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 21:41

I found 16mm M8 bolts on ebay. Bolt Stainless Steel Metric Coarse. $23 for 50. Same vendor had split washers too.

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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by coulomb » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 07:23

bigjsl wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 21:12
Any suggestions on strapping the 400Ah cells?
An easy way is a pair of aluminium plates at either end, and a pair of ratchet straps from Bunnings or elsewhere.

[ Edit: You do need a bit of space in your box for the ratchet parts. ]

It can even be made to work with odd-sized cells, but most of us won't have that issue.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by coulomb » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 07:46

bigjsl wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 21:41
I found 16mm M8 bolts on ebay. Bolt Stainless Steel Metric Coarse. $23 for 50. Same vendor had split washers too.
You need standard M8, 1.25 mm thread pitch. I don't think that "coarse" is the right description for these, so check the Ebay description carefully.

This Ebay item is for 20, very slightly cheaper for our needs and if you buy two sets, you only have 8 spares, rather than 18. They have 14 mm heads, which are a bit large, but not excessively so. With recent battery work, I needed 12, 13, and 14 mm sockets.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by jonescg » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 09:25

bigjsl wrote:
Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 21:12
I have bought 16 Batrium BMS modules of the terminal + flylead variety. I'm having some regret because it would have been easier to use the dual flylead modules but it doesn't matter.

I'm planning on using aluminium links like Steve. Thanks for the Alvania tip :-)

My PIP inverter just arrived and I have acquired 6 kw of 250 watt solar panels. I know that's more than the PIP can handle. I'm planning on a second PIP and I kinda acquired the second set of panels unintentionally.

Any suggestions on strapping the 400Ah cells?
Sounds like you're well on your way!
In terms of strapping and compression, they will appreciate the strapping, but it's not mission critical. Attached is a picture of how Mike McCarthy is strapping his up. I keep insisting he get on here and start sharing his experience...
Mike McCarthy compression tips.jpg
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The PIP5048 should be good for 5 kW of solar I think.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by weber » Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 09:51

Aluminium links are a bad idea. But if you must use them, you not only need to use jointing paste, you also need to know they have not been anodized (a deliberately thick, and very hard but invisible, non-conducting oxide layer), and you need to file or sand them to remove the thin natural oxide layer immediately before applying the jointing paste.
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Re: Brighsun 220Ah cells

Post by bigjsl » Tue, 14 Aug 2018, 09:38

Those interconnects are so nicely fabricated!

Now I'm going to have to do it properly or hide the photos forever.

jsl

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