jonescg's home battery storage system

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jonescg
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

Hmmm.
This from a Youtuber with one of these inverters. That is a huge amount of extra energy required per day just to keep it running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwsX8U-Q79k
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by antiscab »

wow that's crap - it would be a little heater - imagine summer

that goodwe dc-dc unit keeps looking better and better
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

antiscab wrote: Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 14:17 wow that's crap - it would be a little heater - imagine summer

that goodwe dc-dc unit keeps looking better and better
I'm not sure what to do now. The GW5048D-ES is a single phase, 5 kW, 48 volt, DC coupled hybrid inverter. But it's limited to 6.6 kW of PV (I have about 7.5 kW on the roof now). Now my two arrays are within the solar voltage and current limits, but would max out on a cool, sunny day. Decisions...
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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jonescg wrote: Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 14:21 I have about 7.5 kW on the roof now). Now my two arrays are within the solar voltage and current limits, but would max out on a cool, sunny day. Decisions...
what inverter do you have at the moment?
how many mppt does it have?
this is the one I was talking about: https://solarbatteriesonline.com.au/pro ... -inverter/
good for 6.6kw of solar
2.5kw is max charge or discharge of battery

if you connect to a 5kw inverter with 2 x mppt, you could connect 6.6kw to the goodwe *and* 3.3kw to the 5kw inverter on the other mppt.
or you could really push the envelope and use 2 of the goodwe units and run 6.6kw on both, with a common 48v battery
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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I don't have any inverter on the house yet. The shed system is unrelated as it's too difficult to pair with the house.

Since I only have real estate for one piece of power conversion equipment, it's going to have to be a DC coupled unit with two MPPTs.
The Goodwe 5048D-ES is the best contender, and would probably match the east-west profile really well.
ES.pdf
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by brendon_m »

antiscab wrote: Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 14:31 [https://solarbatteriesonline.com.au/pro ... -inverter/
good for 6.6kw of solar
2.5kw is max charge or discharge of battery
I've been looking at that unit and I think it'll be the way I go.
However I am a bit perplexed as to why it can take 6.6kW of solar but only charge the battery at 2.5kW and output 2.5kW.
I assume that it can do those simultaneously so, 2.5kW goes through to the inverter while it uses another 2.5kW for battery charging.
Or even better would be to use 2.5kW for charging and pass the remaining (up to) 4.1kW to the inverter
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

I reckon it has to do with settings, but by and large these 'upper-tier'* hybrid inverters are effectively playing an accounting game with your meter. They ramp up the AC output voltage until it matches the load being seen at the meter box, so export is just whatever is left over.

I'm pretty confident in my case the 7.5 kW (nameplate peak) solar array I have on the roof will never max out at more than about 6.5 kW because of the east-west split in the arrays. And we mainly use power of an evening, so being able to produce PV well into the late afternoon will work out well.

* not MPP / PIP / Whoflungdung brands
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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brendon_m wrote: Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 19:11 However I am a bit perplexed as to why it can take 6.6kW of solar but only charge the battery at 2.5kW and output 2.5kW.
I assume that it can do those simultaneously so, 2.5kW goes through to the inverter while it uses another 2.5kW for battery charging.
Or even better would be to use 2.5kW for charging and pass the remaining (up to) 4.1kW to the inverter
The unit consists of only a 2.5kw 48v bi-directional dc-dc that can take 150 - 500vdc input

The solar input is passed directly through to the output (which is connected to the inverters mppt input)

it decides how much power to take or inject into the solar output based on feedback from a meter in your switchboard.

so yes, if the connected solar array was putting out 6.6kw, and system would otherwise be exporting 2.5kw or more, the unit would take 2.5kw and convert it to 48v nominal for the battery, and pass the remaining 4.1kw through to the inverter.

There would likely be a setting letting the unit know that the connected inverter is only 5kw, so it wouldn't do something stupid like try to support an above 5kw load whilst the solar is also producing more than 5kw by sending more power to the inverter.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by brendon_m »

I didn't realise it could pass through all the solar power it didn't need for the battery. Well that sounds perfect for my application then. Now I just need a battery...
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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OK so I am settled on the GW5048D-ES inverter and a split east-west solar array (one on each MPPT input).

The next quandary is the phases. Do I leave the three phase wiring as is and hook the inverter up to one of the phases, but use a 3-phase EZ-meter for pushing out what I use?
Should I pay for a downgrade to single phase and run everything through that phase? I have a feeling I might hit 63 A pretty quickly at times.

Does any of this invoke export limits with Western Power? It seems like 5 kW is the maximum export for single phase, but if you have three phase, it must be balanced or kept under 2.5 kW. Does this change if I'm OK with not getting paid 7c per kWh? Does this impact VPP options later on?

https://westernpower.com.au/media/2495/ ... 170828.pdf

It's not entirely clear unfortunately.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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jonescg wrote: Fri, 24 Apr 2020, 11:53 Does any of this invoke export limits with Western Power? It seems like 5 kW is the maximum export for single phase, but if you have three phase, it must be balanced or kept under 2.5 kW. Does this change if I'm OK with not getting paid 7c per kWh? Does this impact VPP options later on?

https://westernpower.com.au/media/2495/ ... 170828.pdf

It's not entirely clear unfortunately.
I read that as a blanket 'you must not export more than a 2.5kW unbalance across phases' regardless of the 7¢ rebate
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

Presumably the inverter can be told to never export at a rate greater than 2.5 kW then?

Considering what will be on at the same time, the EV can be charged at 10 A or 32 A, the dishwasher (10 A) can be run when everything else is off, and the shed (32 A) is likely to never be on when the house loads are on. It seems feasible that it could be powered in a single phase, but it all amounts to an accounting exercise.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

This diagram is from the GW5048D-ES manual - certainly it only works on single phase. Particularly since the S-BP manual lists the option of a three-phase EZ-Meter...
GW5048DES wiring.JPG
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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Are you planning on telling western power about the installation? If not, does it really matter?

If yes, why not just ask western power?
Over on quality Solar fb group, the installers commonly say that in WA export limiting isn't presently an accepted solution, and the 2.5kw maximum difference between phases is a hard limit.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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Yeah we're making this a formal application with WP.
I did call WP and *eventually* they told me that the 2.5 kW phase imbalance was a hard rule.
This is fine, but I now have two concerns - one, can the GW5048D-ES inverter be programmed to never export more than 2.5 kW? And two, can a 3-phase EZ-Meter be installed, directing the inverter to push the same amount of power onto the grid to maximise self-consumption.

If not, I will have no choice but to downgrade to a 15 kVA single phase connection.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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Heard back from Goodwe:
Hi Chris,
Yes. Just purchase a three phases meter named as goodwe GM3000.
Then you can use this ES on a three phases house.
So that's good.
I don't care for the payment of 7 c/kWh, but I don't want to have my hardware limited, especially if I find I need to charge an electric car while the heat is on in the house or something. As for the export limit, I wonder if the fact this is a DC coupled system with a battery means I can still export at 5 kW?
WP rules.png
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by brendon_m »

Does the column to the left of that say you can only export 2.5kVA on a single phase? Seems limited...I'm guessing I'm reading it wrong.
That would mean you could have a 5kVA difference but only export 2.5kVA on 1 phase and therefore only import up to 2.5kVA on a different phase at the same time.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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For three phase standard supply customers energy storage IES shall be no more than 5 kVA of
unbalance across the supply phases. The energy storage IES 5kVA or less can be connected to a
single phase on a three phase supply arrangement if the following is achieved:
(a) The voltage rise on the service lead shall not exceed 1% on any one phase with any
possible load or generation condition.
(b) Battery IES shall be on same phase as the load it is intended to supply4
, and;
(c) AC Coupled IES (refer Figure 3a);
(i) Battery IES shall be connected on the same phase as the largest PV component of
an IES;
(ii) Site generation capacity shall be maintained across the three phases and on the
battery IES phase it shall never exceed 5 kVA, and;
(iii) Single phase PV IES and single phase battery IES shall be export limited to 2.5
kVA on the phase it is connected to;
(d) DC coupled energy sources (refer Figure 3b);
(i) Single phase IES shall be rated at no more than 5 kVA, and;
(ii) Single phase energy sources and battery storage are DC coupled and the IES shall
be export limited to 2.5 kVA on the phase it is connected to.
Not looking good
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

I don't know if it matters or not, but at least with a battery, you'd be sending a large chunk of the energy to a battery before shunting it out onto the grid. Even better when you have an east-west array which will probably peak at about 4 or 5 kW anyway, well after the panels have warmed up and lowered their outputs.

And honestly I don't care about how much I can export, I just don't want my hardware options limited. It just seems nuts to me that a 3-phase home cannot have more than 2.5 kW imbalance, but a single phase home down the road can pump 5 kW onto the line no worries. Do they think we're going to be running a foundry on L1, an assembly line on L2 and pushing 5 kW back down L3?

From the Goodwe ES series manual:
ES manual on exports.JPG
ES manual on exports.JPG (91.23 KiB) Viewed 1482 times
Makes me think the inverter can be programmed to export at a rate of no more than what's set in the App?

Edit: Yep!
GW anti reverse current manual.JPG
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by brendon_m »

Yep it's lunacy.
jonescg wrote: Mon, 27 Apr 2020, 21:43 Do they think we're going to be running a foundry on L1, an assembly line on L2 and pushing 5 kW back down L3?
How do you know so much about my secret business plans? :twisted:
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

Mike at Goodwe read the Western Power document, and he's confident it would be OK for an export of 5 kW provided the loads at the same time were on the same phase. Which is interesting, because I'm not sure which loads I should put on which phase...
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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Some preliminary testing before I start to assemble the battery enclosure.
20200503_113657.jpg
20200503_113657.jpg (263.34 KiB) Viewed 1335 times
I decided to use the 4 kW PIP inverter @bga left with me as a means to provide a regular load. It also has a built in charger at about 1.8 kW when plugged into mains. I still don't have a BMS on the battery yet, so when I charged it, one cell hit 3.65 V before the others were even hitting 3.44 V, so I suspect I have a couple of laggards in th emix. We found a source of new cells, so if we need to place an order for replacements we can.
20200503_113650.jpg
20200503_113650.jpg (203.54 KiB) Viewed 1335 times
Fired up the trusty Jaycar energy meter and given the load I'm using is a 1.8 kW bar heater, its power factor should be a robust 100%.

The CellLog8 units are the closest thing I have to a BMS. That, and me coming in and checking on it periodically. No hod links at least.
20200503_113715.jpg
20200503_113715.jpg (226.68 KiB) Viewed 1335 times
Will hopefully report back at least 18 kWh of AC power, ideally 20 kWh.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by nuggetgalore »

jonescg wrote: Sun, 03 May 2020, 12:12 Some preliminary testing before I start to assemble the battery enclosure.
20200503_113657.jpg
I decided to use the 4 kW PIP inverter @bga left with me as a means to provide a regular load. It also has a built in charger at about 1.8 kW when plugged into mains. I still don't have a BMS on the battery yet, so when I charged it, one cell hit 3.65 V before the others were even hitting 3.44 V, so I suspect I have a couple of laggards in th emix. We found a source of new cells, so if we need to place an order for replacements we can.
20200503_113650.jpg
.
20200503_113715.jpg
Will hopefully report back at least 18 kWh of AC power, ideally 20 kWh.
Neat block if cells.
For better or worse, I set my 16 up as 8S2P and have shunts across the 2P.
The shunts start blinking red and blue as they hit 3.5 V.
I watched them like a hawk the first few times and periodically since when I think they may charge up to full. I never noticed any pair to be less than 3.45 V when the first starts to get to 3.5 V.
https://imgur.com/a/6lfKptL

" We found a source of new cells, so if we need to place an order for replacements we can".
Mate of mine who missed out on the Avass cells might be interested.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

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jonescg wrote: Sun, 03 May 2020, 12:12 Will hopefully report back at least 18 kWh of AC power, ideally 20 kWh.
I hope you meant 18 kWh of energy on the AC side, Mr National Secretary and Branch Chair. :geek:
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: jonescg's home battery storage system

Post by jonescg »

Yes, yes of course.



:roll:


:mrgreen:
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