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PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 23 Dec 2015, 14:31
by weber
baal wrote: on the battery topic ..

Hi Sean, I see that I made a mistake in responding to PlanB's battery questions in this thread, which is really about a specific inverter, which is already somewhat off-topic for this electric vehicle forum. I should have started a new thread, and may yet do so. But in my defence, it was, at least indirectly, about designing software that communicates with PIP inverters.

There are probably other forums where you will find people who are far more knowledgeable about lead-acid batteries for campers.

There are at least two open source BMS projects on this forum, that you should be able to find using the search. The one used in the Black Monolith is called "LyteFyba". But they are not suitable for lead-acid due to its lower cell voltage. However you could possibly redesign them to work with lead-acid.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 23 Dec 2015, 17:59
by PlanB
Didn't feel like a mistake to me, I can use all the battery input I can get

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Thu, 24 Dec 2015, 01:34
by paulvk
Those CR225 batteries are the crown type of the Trojan T105s they are 225Ah most people seem to think the American made Trojan are the best ones
I will find out over time with my 8 T105s but people I have spoken to who have off grid systems and Trojan T105s have had them for 10years or more.
As I said if you go for flooded look into the watering system which allows you to fill all batteries with a hand pump at the same time to the correct level.
Here is a link http://www.trojanbattery.com/products/h ... ng-system/
It is made by Flowrite https://flow-rite.com/battery-watering

The Trojan T105s are 28Kg each
My installation with the 8 x T105 and the PIP-4048 inverter seems to be working well running my house.
After 3 months I have not had to add water I had a look today, all the indicators show full.

The sealed Lead acid batteries do not cope as well as flooded types with higher current outputs I would not want to try and get more than 20amps from those you posted for a long period.

Yes you really need to keep an eye on you weights as some states are being aggressive about overloading

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Thu, 24 Dec 2015, 01:36
by baal
weber wrote:
baal wrote: on the battery topic ..

Hi Sean, I see that I made a mistake in responding to PlanB's battery questions in this thread, which is really about a specific inverter, which is already somewhat off-topic for this electric vehicle forum. I should have started a new thread, and may yet do so. But in my defence, it was, at least indirectly, about designing software that communicates with PIP inverters.

There are probably other forums where you will find people who are far more knowledgeable about lead-acid batteries for campers.


its related to the same inverter thats got to count surely.

so umm your giving me the polite boot to go somewhere else already ? :(

on the electric vehicle topic then, are you using the pip-4048 in electric cars ?
can you get a 2 ton nissan patrol 4wd to run on an electric motor ?

ciao
Sean

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Thu, 24 Dec 2015, 02:51
by weber
My apologies Sean. Not giving you the boot at all. You are most welcome here. I was just thinking of people in future, who will come here looking for info on the PIP-4048MS, and like yourself will read through the whole thread, which is already very long, and will have to wade through both yours and my long posts re batteries, for which we probably should have started new threads.

And independent of that, I didn't think we were going to be of much use to you on that specific question, because I though most contributors to this thread were of the Lithium persuasion. But I'm glad that Paulvk has come through for you.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 17:01
by coulomb
Now that the firmware is sorted, I ordered my PIP-4048. The order was placed about 5pm Tuesday 22nd Dec, a few days before Christmas. Estimated delivery date: Wed. 30 Dec. - Tue. 5 Jan. So that's 1-2 weeks delivery, not too bad over the Christmas break.

But on Christmas day, my wife handed me a "sorry we missed you" card from Toll. I wondered what it was for; couldn't be the inverter already. But when I checked the consignment note number, it was! And the card was from just after noon the previous day, Christmas eve!

I only received confirmation of dispatch just after 2pm Wed 23rd December. So either they are very fast at delivering from Taiwan to Sydney, and slow to send the dispatch confirmation, or they have stock in Sydney (the Toll Priority tracking information started with "freight pickup" from "Sydney bulk" just after 4pm on the 23rd).

Or someone stuffed up the delivery. I won't know till Wednesday 30th December when they hopefully attempt a re-delivery.

The Ebay listing (I ordered from Ebay seller maximum_solar) states "Item location: TW Taiwan".

[Moderators note: Coulomb's follow up to this, has been moved to the PIP repair topic.]

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 18:49
by offgridQLD
They got the one I order very fast within 3 days of ordering and was surprised.

Your looking at a 9hr flight to Sydney. Then If it got pushed through customs quick and was kept rolling I guess its not impossible but this time of year it would be lucky.


Lets say they where selling a reasonable amount of them in AU then the smart idea for them would be to send a bulk lot by slow boat. Then charge the $100 Airmail cost from Taiwan. Cheeky but in the end you get your product just the same.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 19:28
by coulomb
offgridQLD wrote: They got the one I order very fast within 3 days of ordering and was surprised.
Wow.
Lets say they where selling a reasonable amount of them in AU then the smart idea for them would be to send a bulk lot by slow boat. Then charge the $100 Airmail cost from Taiwan.

Yes. Maybe they use Giant Power and other resellers to stock the Ebay models as well in their warehouses.
Cheeky but in the end you get your product just the same.
Except quicker.

And maybe not quite the same; I bet I missed out on the latest hardware update:

Image

From the Voltronic Power Axpert MKS 1KVA-5KVA Inverter page (Specifications tab).

It might come with more recent firmware. I'm always interested in firmware Image

There could well be more Brisbane sales soon, so that might flush out the old stock, if there is any.

[ Edit: Circled 4000W as well as the other 2 numbers. ]

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 21:31
by offgridQLD
Coulomb,
        It will be interesting to see how the unit performs without the large heat sink up top. From the inside view pic (on the ebay listing) it looks like the MPPT controller is in the same position as the old units up top and perhaps it's just a thin strip of aluminum up plate up top. Though I am thinking perhaps they could have just mixed and matched generic pics on the ebay listing as that's how the old units look from the inside.

Is your plan to run your home completely from the PIP or just some loads ?

Kurt




PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 23:41
by coulomb
offgridQLD wrote:
Is your plan to run your home completely from the PIP or just some loads ?

I plan to run everything except three large loads:
* electric oven
* ducted air conditioning, about 12 A when compressing, and about 80 A (!) of start current
* 15 A welder/EV charger outlet. I don't have an EV yet, but I'd like to be able to slow charge one during the day, so I might put another 15 A socket on the inverter.

There is another air conditioner, a small Fujitsu efficient one, that will go on the inverter. I'll probably phase out my 24 V DC lights over time.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 00:02
by solamahn
Should have bought 2 4048's

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 01:30
by Monkeytom
I bought 16 x T105 china copies from batteryguru in Sydney they were $120 ea delivered to the Gold Coast. I use them on my PIP4048HS and they work great 21KWH for $1920 time will tell, we will see?
I see they have some tubular plate t105 type in Melb could ve worth a look
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Melb-6V-225A ... SwHPlWeNxf

[ Edited Coulomb: make link clickable ]

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 30 Dec 2015, 15:36
by solamahn
I am having a problem connecting generators to 4048's running 52.30 and 72.40. Works with mains connection but not with generator. I thing 52.25 works but then the fans will run too fast. I will try 52.25 again to confirm. Generators always work with 812, 1624, 2424 and 2448 but not 3248 and 4048 but they have worked in the past. Any ideas?

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 30 Dec 2015, 15:56
by weber
solamahn wrote: I am having a problem connecting generators to 4048's running 52.30 and 72.40. Works with mains connection but not with generator. I thing 52.25 works but then the fans will run too fast. I will try 52.25 again to confirm. Generators always work with 812, 1624, 2424 and 2448 but not 3248 and 4048 but they have worked in the past. Any ideas?

Make sure parameter 3 is set to APL.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 30 Dec 2015, 16:04
by solamahn
Yes. Did that

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 30 Dec 2015, 23:11
by coulomb
solamahn wrote: I am having a problem connecting generators to 4048's running 52.30 and 72.40. ... Any ideas?

Huh. Looks like I didn't solve my Christmas puzzle properly then:

http://powerforum.co.za/topic/282-porta ... #entry4570

I'll focus more on how the AC input "quality" is assessed. Last time I looked, I didn't really definitively settle it.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 30 Dec 2015, 23:20
by solamahn
I will try 52.25 and 72.40 to see if they work.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Fri, 01 Jan 2016, 17:17
by offgridQLD
I assume you didn't have any PV connected to the SCC at the time when measuring inverter temps under load.

I would be interested to see what happens with say 100-200w base load on the Inverter at the same time that the SCC is charging the batterys at say 50A for a while.

Perhaps high temp would then trigger the fans.

My experience is that inverters in offgrid house applications tend to spend most of the time doing not much (idle loads) Typically large load times are all about the kitchen and laundry. You have the morning breakfast rush hr loads and the same for lunch and dinner. With the odd load of washing or ironing thrown in.

A good 12hrs or so over night they just idle along with the odd little spike from the fridge now and then. A large portion of the day time they are doing much the same.

Perhaps having the fans running gently under light load would be nice just to lower that idle/base load temp below 40C to help with component longevity.

Kurt

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Fri, 01 Jan 2016, 17:54
by coulomb
offgridQLD wrote: I assume you didn't have any PV connected to the SCC at the time when measuring inverter temps under load.
No, I forgot to mention that.

But I am today. It seems that even with very light PV charging (e.g. 2 A into the battery), the fans run harder and the temperature targets 42-44°C. [ Update: but that doesn't hold up now; even 7 A of charging sometimes sees the temperature peaking at 51°C. ]
I would be interested to see what happens with say 100-200w base load on the Inverter at the same time that the SCC is charging the batterys at say 50A for a while.
I only have two strings (4 panels) on the PIP at present, and this morning has been very cloudy. But I'd say it would continue to target the low 40s in degrees.
Perhaps having the fans running gently under light load would be nice just to lower that idle/base load temp below 40C to help with component longevity.

Yes, I think that would be good. But as the firmware is now, at least during the day, the temperature will be eight [ edit: was ten ] or so degrees cooler. The fans running slower at night will at least reduce the battery-only load by a very small amount.

Update: with around 15 A solar charging, it's maintaining a solid 42°C.

Update 2: there were many flaws with this test; see this post.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Fri, 01 Jan 2016, 18:34
by coulomb
When sending the same command to a PIP inverter-charger over and over, especially one with a many-keystroke CRC sequence like QPIGS, it's convenient to use a program like AccessPort, which allows you to send a sequence specified in a mixture of text and hex codes with a single mouse click. It can be downloaded here:
http://www.sudt.com/en/ap/download.htm (Windows only; doesn't mention Windows 8 or 10 but works for me on Windows 10.)

Image

[ Edit: there is also an auto-send capability. I find that an 8000 ms (8 second) delay is good for the QPIGS general status command. ]

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Sat, 02 Jan 2016, 19:18
by dockarl
Speaking as a person that's spent my fair share of time deep in the bowels of code for embedded systems like this one I'd have to say - I'm sure everyone realises - what Coulomb and Weber have achieved by reverse engineering the firmware here is 'NO SMALL FEAT' - not by any stretch. There would be very few people around with the skills to do that - definitely beyond my pay grade. I can't even begin to imagine the challenges they would have encountered.

Congrats to both of you - very impressive achievement - and thanks very much to both of you for putting my blown inverter to good use as a 'testbed' during the reverse engineering - with the cool side effect that it's now working again :)

Thanks guys - very much appreciated. HNY.

M

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Mon, 04 Jan 2016, 14:47
by Jdp
Hi all. Mike has been helping us here in South Africa. These inverters are a bit new to us. I did not get any useful stats out of the software that came with it. So I decided to build my own, thanks to the protocol this forum provided. People over here in SA saw what I did and asked me to make it available for them to use as well. So I spent about 2 months of my live sitting till 2 in the morning to build this software. So if you are interested there is a 15 day free trail. It works the best with a Victron BMV-702 as we all know we can not trust the battery values that come from the inverters.

Link to the site you can get the free trail

Here is the link to my solar setup on-line.

http://emoncms.org/JacoFourie/Power

All the best.

Jaco.

[ Edit Coulomb: now evolved into ICC. ]

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2016, 17:50
by PlanB
Dave/Mike, is the typo fix you made after your day with the monolith incorporated in the download posted a few pages back? Would like to avail myself of the improved low voltage cutout for lithiums.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2016, 18:23
by coulomb
Yes, all files with the typo bug are fixed.

PIP-4048MS inverter

Posted: Sun, 10 Jan 2016, 16:21
by coulomb
In answering a post on the South African Power Forum, I came across the Q1 command. I so wish I was aware of this command yesterday when Weber and I did the fan temperature experiments. (So you're a day late, guys! Image )

It seems to be tailor made for investigating the effectiveness of the fan control system! Like most of the well over 100 commands that the PIP responds to, this one is undocumented. (Even some of the documented commands have extra fields; for example 4 at the end of the QPIGS command. For example, you can see the PV power was around 990 W in my Access Port post above; it's the second last field. The string of eight ones and zeroes ("Device Status") is the last documented field (at least, with the documentation I have, with 20140822 in the file name).

The Q1 command (CRC 1B FC) seems to send back the following:
(        All command responses start with the open parenthesis character.
AAAAA    Local inverter status (first field). This seems to be a bit field,
         commonly taking the values 0x3809 or similar (shows as 14345 decimal).
         Edit: this seems to become a count in seconds till the end of CV
         (absorb) charging, in firmware version 72.70.
BBBBB    ParaExistInfo first field. This always seems to be 00001, even with
         no parallel card installed.
         Edit: this seems to become a count in seconds till the end of float
         charging (when it will start CC (bulk) charging), in firmware version
         72.70.
CC       SccOkFlag. I assume that 1 means the SCC is powered and is
         communicating.
DD       AllowSccOnFlag.
EE       ChargeAverageCurrent. I'm not clear on what chargers are included.
FFF      SCC PWM temperature, in °C. From global variable wSccPWMTemp.
GGG      Inverter temperature, in °C. Presumed to be from the AC heatsink.
HHH      "Battery temperature". It seems that this must be the temperature
         reported by a sensor on the battery to bus inverter heatsink.
III      Transformer temperature. It's the result of calling _wTempDegreeTxt().
         Presumably also in °C.
JJ       GPADAT bit 13 (i.e. whatever is connected to general purpose I/O line
         GPIO13). It is presumably related to temperature and fans.
KK       FanLockStatus. I'd say 01 means fans are locked, 00 means not locked.
LLL      FanPWMDuty. No longer used. Always 000.
MMMM     "FanPWM", but is actually speed in percent. 0000 represents off, and
         0100 represents 100% duty cycle (flat out). However, on start-up, this
         value goes to 0100 without the fans roaring. 0030 (30%) seems to be
         the lowest speed, quite quiet. At 42% load, the fans went to 42% 
         speed.
NNNN     SCC charge power, watts. This is one of the changes to firmware
         version 72.40 that is not present in version 52.30. In 72.40, the
         result of the call to _swGetSccChgPower() is divided by 10; in 52.30
         is is displayed as is. I suspect 52.30 would have displayed tenths of
         watts.
OOOO     ParaWarning. Presumably, some warning bitfield related to paralleled
         units.
PP.PP    SYNFreq. Wild guess: frequency of inverter after synchronising with
         the mains input.
QQ       Inverter charge status. This will likely be 10 for no charging, 11 for
         bulk stage, 12 for absorb, or 13 for float. However, bulk stage will
         usually report as 12, same as absorb. I don't know what the signif-
         icance of the leading "1" digit is; I've always found it to be one, but
         the firmware calculates this value modulo 10 (stripping off the tens
         digit) a lot of the time.
These 17 fields are followed by the usual checksum and carriage return.

So you can see that an experiment could possibly be designed to find out whether the transformer temperature measurement is being affected by the fan air flow direction. However, it would probably require either some guesswork, or access to the transformer while the unit is running. The latter is likely not practical on a 2015 model machine.

[ Edited 11/Jan/2016: changed several descriptions after actually examining the results (no load) ]
[ Edited 17/Dec/2016: Inserted PWM temperature field (FFF); moved other fields down (so now ends as QQ instead of PP ]
[ Edited 14/Jan/2017: Guess on the meaning of "Battery temperature" changed. SynFreq now a wild guess. ]
[ Edited 3/Feb/2017: Amended guess of first two fields for firmeare version 72.70 ]
[ Edit: Always found it on -> Always found it to be one ]