PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by 6mdx » Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 08:21

Weber, on utility, not charging yet, Battery at 51.0

Interestingly the pv feed after the breaker is =batery voltage with both PV stings isolated from the 5048.
Seems like you were correct re the SCC short.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 08:32

6mdx wrote:
Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 08:10
Weber, the battery voltage at 50.5 PV at 51.5, charging at 35 amps atm.
That sure sounds like MOSFETs failed short-circuit in the SCC. The PV voltage wouldn't normally be so close to the battery voltage if it was maximum-power-point tracking, unless you only have 2 x 60 cell panels [Edit: in series] per string. How many panels do you have per string, and are they 60 or 72 cell panels?
Yes U1 is 34 10, remember this is 5048 so thats why weird number.
Yes. I was aware it was a 5048. Coulomb and I have only heard of those having 74.xx (except for those with the 64 V option which have 72.xx, where xx<40). When was it made? Does it have the 64 V option?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by 6mdx » Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 09:29

Weber
Panels are 60 cell, connected 2s3p each string, ie 2s6p total. (Edit for 3kw total) Open circiut at the breakers is 64 atm.

This PWM SCC.

It appears that it is not charging at all on utility as battery voltage continues to drop
Set #16 to CSO and CUE no effect.

I checked and inverter was purchaced from maximum solar November 2017, so still under warranty?
Robert
Last edited by 6mdx on Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 10:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 10:24

6mdx wrote:
Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 09:29
Weber
Panels are 60 cell, connected 2s3p each string, ie 2s6p total. Open circiut at the breakers is 64 atm.

This PWM SCC.

It appears that it is not charging at all on utility as battery voltage continues to drop
Set #16 to CSO and CUE no effect.

I checked and inverter was purchaced from maximum solar November 2017, so still under warranty?
Robert
Ah! Yes, you did say it was PIP-5048HS. I note that this thread is for MS. So it is fully expected that the PV input voltage will be just above the battery voltage and we have no evidence of shorted MOSFETs after all. Even the leakage back to the PV inputs when the PV array is isolated, is expected.

To get utility charging, you also need to set the output priority (param 1) to "uti". It can't charge from the utility unless it also feeds the loads from the utility.

Yes. You should contact Maximum Solar about a possible warranty replacement.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by 6mdx » Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 11:28

Thanks Weber, that got the utility charging and bypassing.
I realise this forum is about the mppt 4048, but you guys are the best source of knowledge about these devices.
Cheers Robert

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by 6mdx » Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 15:24

Weber the utility charger seems to be working fine. Seems like the problem is the SCC

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by DanoP » Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 17:16

Hallo,
I have some strange battery current (charge, discharge) reported from PIP4048 (QPIGS data) when in PIP is line mode (bypass) and PV charging is starting (PV power about 60 W in early morning).
PIP reports charge current 1A (difference between battery charge current and battery discharge current is positive value), but battery voltage is still falling.
Voltage falling is steeper than in time when PV is sleeping. When PV is sleeping (night) than it correctly reports -1A (discharge current 1A).
It looks like there is some bug in buttery current reporting. I use FW 73.00C (LFP).

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Re: LG Chem Resu 10 with PIP-4048MS

Post by djonexx » Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 05:12

weber wrote:
Sat, 25 Aug 2018, 14:31

Hi djonexx. Welcome. I assume you mean LF1_73.00c. No. You would not use that firmware with the LG Chem batteries. The LF1 firmware is only for batteries using LFP (Lithium Ferrous Phosphate) cells (15 or 16 in series). All other lithium chemistries should use the LC1 firmware, the same as is used for lead-acid. The LG Chems use NMC (lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt oxide) cells (14 in series).

You can think of the "LF" as standing for "Lithium Ferrous" (phosphate) and the "LC" as standing for either "Lithium Cobalt" (blends) or "Lead aCid". But the "L" also stands for "reLease" in both cases, as opposed to "B" for "Beta".
Thank you, weber!. I will report back with additional info after installing the battery.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 06:19

Hi @DanoP. Thanks for reporting this. Can you please tell us what battery current is shown on the LCD when you get the false reading from QPIGS? Do you get the same false reading on the LCD?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 12:29

Patched Firmware 72.20a for PF1 models with 64V option

[Edit: This has been superceded. Please see the Firmware section of the index post to find the latest patched firmware for your machine.]

What's this? Has Coulomb gone mad? Probably :P , but has he gone even more mad? We've seen 72.70 for over a year now, and 72.90 has been sighted. Well, Voltronic have chosen these numbers, and for whatever reason they're using 72.00 to 72.20 as the firmware versions for these models, which are more recent than 72.70. But note that while this firmware is more recent, it does not replace the firmware for any PF0.8 models, or any without the 64 V option. It's in its own parallel compatibility group as well, meaning it won't parallel with any other models (so far) either.

This patched firmware fixes the premature-float bugs in the manufacturer's firmware for the PIP-5048MS (with 64V option), Axpert MKS 5K-48 (PF1, with 64V option), and equivalents. It does not contain the patches for our dynamic current control (DCC) or AussieView™ additions, and we have not provided a version with our voltage and current threshold changes for LFP cells. This is primarily due to the fact that we don't have a suitable inverter to test them on.

Here are the zip files with all the software you need, to reflash your PIP-5048MS with PF1 and 64 V option or Axpert MKS 5K-48 (PF1 with 64 V option), and to revert to factory 72.20 firmware if required. See these installation instructions.

Note: This firmware is only suitable for the 48 V models with 5kW/5kVA (PF1.0), and the 64 V maximum battery voltage option, which I believe is a special order. It is not suitable for the more ordinary models with a 4 kW/5 kVA rating, or others (including the 5 kW models) that don't have the 64 V hardware.

For lead acid (24S), lithium cobalt-blends (LCO, NMC, NCM, NCA) (14S) and lithium titanate (LTO) (21S)
dsp_BC1_72.20a pf1 64V.zip
(1.89 MiB) Downloaded 42 times

It should go without saying, that you use this at your own risk. The original unpatched 72.20 firmware is included in the above zip-file, in case there's a problem with the patched version.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
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Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 00:28

Hi guys what's up.? Hey weber
My pip 4048 units have been working great until a few days ago a lightning storm now has one of my units working funny the LCD screen went out and solar would only charge with inverter on, voltage was all over the place?? so disconnected it from parallel and shut it off for a few days turned it back on today and now it seems to be working fine????? Even the LCD is working again and I put it back in parallel all is working...
what the heck any ideas?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 06:47

Hi @Solar Junky,

That's crazy stuff. Thanks for sharing. My only guess is that you were very lucky that the induced voltages from the nearby lightning were not great enough to do permanent damage, but they did put some of the peripheral interface chips (for control and sensing) into unusual states, possibly just resetting them to the state they are in when first powered up, before the microprocessor sets them up for normal operation. You probably only needed to completely power it down (isolate if from PV, AC and battery) briefly, in order to restore normal operation. But you should be on the lookout for problems that still remain, due to permanent damage of some device. It's also possible that some devices, while operating correctly now, have had their lives shortened.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 11:07

Yes Weber I'm scared that the problem will pop back up. I tried shutting everything off and powering it down a few times, still got error code (voltage difference) and crazy voltage differences between the two units... the hated blinking red light!. (Maybe I didn't wait long enough?)
I thought unit was fried.

Where is the best place to buy a 4048ms? mpp solar does not sell them any more. Found some on alibaba that look the same with same specs. thinking it will parellel with my unit?

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 11:14

Weber since I got your help my units have been working flawlessly till that bad lightning storm recently. I think it's worth investing in another unit as a backup my system was not the same minus the two thousand Plus watts of solar when the one unit stoped charging????

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 11:24

Replacing a failed 4048 in a parallel set is a problem people will increasingly be facing. I do not have a solution.
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by bigjsl » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 13:53

I bought one of these clones.

It came with a parallel kit installed.

Parallel mode was enabled.

So far, I haven't been able to install Coulomb's firmware but I haven't tried since I turned parallel mode off.

It is however working quite well and I will probably buy a second and possibly third one to run in parallel.

The firmware update process starts, the inverter stops making AC so it's clearly talking but the actual update process doesn't get to reporting any further progress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5KVA-Pu ... 26839.html

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by DanoP » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 18:17

weber wrote:
Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 06:19
Hi @DanoP. Thanks for reporting this. Can you please tell us what battery current is shown on the LCD when you get the false reading from QPIGS? Do you get the same false reading on the LCD?
Hello, on LCD is shown battery current 1A, but real current measured on battery wire is 0A (oscilating +- 20 mA). PIP is in bypas mode (L). QPIGS response is 235.1 49.9 235.1 49.9 0564 0525 013 412 51.00 001 028 0038 0001 060.4 50.99 00000 01110110 00 00 00086 010

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 20:09

weber wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 11:24
Replacing a failed 4048 in a parallel set is a problem people will increasingly be facing. I do not have a solution.
My solution was to have a spare infact I have two, one for each location.
When you consider the difference in cost compared to say a victron unit a full set of spares is still cheaper!

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 00:53

bigjsl wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 13:53
I bought one of these clones.

It came with a parallel kit installed.

Parallel mode was enabled.

So far, I haven't been able to install Coulomb's firmware but I haven't tried since I turned parallel mode off.

It is however working quite well and I will probably buy a second and possibly third one to run in parallel.

The firmware update process starts, the inverter stops making AC so it's clearly talking but the actual update process doesn't get to reporting any further progress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5KVA-Pu ... 26839.html
Thanks for the post! Looks like my first unit.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 01:01

Thanks everyone for the awesome input. Always hated that my two units didn't match I bought them at different times.

Link to my system https://youtu.be/K7OaZ3tzMxk

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 01:05

bigjsl wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 13:53
I bought one of these clones.

It came with a parallel kit installed.

Parallel mode was enabled.

So far, I haven't been able to install Coulomb's firmware but I haven't tried since I turned parallel mode off.

It is however working quite well and I will probably buy a second and possibly third one to run in parallel.

The firmware update process starts, the inverter stops making AC so it's clearly talking but the actual update process doesn't get to reporting any further progress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5KVA-Pu ... 26839.html
Like this older 4048 style build with the big heat sink.... seems more heavy duty. Think they change them to save on Manufacturing & shipping cost??

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 14:05

DanoP wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 18:17
Hello, on LCD is shown battery current 1A, but real current measured on battery wire is 0A (oscilating +- 20 mA). PIP is in bypas mode (L). QPIGS response is 235.1 49.9 235.1 49.9 0564 0525 013 412 51.00 001 028 0038 0001 060.4 50.99 00000 01110110 00 00 00086 010

Your QPIGS response shows 86 watts of SCC output power (2nd-last field, "00086"). With a 51.0 V battery, that's 1.7 A. That appears, truncated, as 1 A of SCC output current (13th field, "0001"). When in line mode with AC charging off, our code subtracts 0.7 A of losses and then rounds to the nearest whole amp. That's why it shows 1 A going into the battery (10th field, "001"). So our code is behaving as we expect it to.

But you measure 0 A (± 0.2 A) and tell us that the battery voltage is falling.
Do you have any other DC loads, apart from the PIP-4048?
Where are you measuring the current?
How are you measuring the current?

Assuming you're correctly measuring the current at the inverter's battery terminals, there are two possibilities. Either:
1. The losses in your inverter when in line mode with AC charging off, are far higher than we have measured on our own PIP-4048's, being about 1.7 A compared to our 0.7 A.
or
2. Your SCC is overestimating its output current by about 1 A.

The second option seems far more likely than the first. We don't patch the SCC code, but we do sometimes have to lie to the SCC about AC charge current, when we want a max total charge current below 10 A or above 60 A (or above 80 A depending on SCC version).

What is the firmware version of your SCC (the "U2" version)?
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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 18:56

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 22:19
I note that the MSE series, being "economy" models, aren't parallelable. So they should not have the major charge bug, which is in a function associated with parallel operation.
Weber goaded me into doing the hard work to test this theory by analysing a firmware I have (version 20.44); that firmware is for a model that can't be paralleled.

While I stand by my claim that these MSE firmwares *should* not have the major charge bug, it turns out that they do :x This time, it can't be blamed on a typographical error like less than where greater than is intended, in this firmware they explicitly check the battery voltage with the float voltage setting, and there is no comparison with the absorb voltage setting (misnamed as the CV setting) at all. I can't explain how they keep getting it wrong.

Or at least, I believe that they are still getting it wrong in the MSE models. If anyone has one of these models, please check for the bug presence, using the method Weber described here, and post the results. Perhaps I'm misreading the firmware, and something else will ensure that the battery voltage reaches the absorb voltage setting before the absorb stage is terminated.

Edit: Another possibility is that I'm looking at old firmware and they've corrected the bug by the relatively modern MSE series.

I note that Weber's post re the way to test for the charge bug was back in December 2015. That's well over 2½ years ago!

Edit Jan 2019: I can confirm that the same bugs exist in the PIP-5048GK / Axpert VM III models (newer models with the fancy new LCD, USB, etc), using firmware version 25.90.

[ Edit: tried to smooth out the mouthful in the first sentence. ]
[ Edit: Made it clear which firmwares should not have the major charge bug. ]
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by reecho » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 20:15

Handy that I have just completed a MSE PIP setup with AVASS cells...

Before we test I would suggest it does have the float bug... on initial monitoring...

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Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by DanoP » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 22:36

weber wrote:
Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 14:05
DanoP wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 18:17
Hello, on LCD is shown battery current 1A, but real current measured on battery wire is 0A (oscilating +- 20 mA). PIP is in bypas mode (L). QPIGS response is 235.1 49.9 235.1 49.9 0564 0525 013 412 51.00 001 028 0038 0001 060.4 50.99 00000 01110110 00 00 00086 010
Your QPIGS response shows 86 watts of SCC output power (2nd-last field, "00086"). With a 51.0 V battery, that's 1.7 A. That appears, truncated, as 1 A of SCC output current (13th field, "0001"). When in line mode with AC charging off, our code subtracts 0.7 A of losses and then rounds to the nearest whole amp. That's why it shows 1 A going into the battery (10th field, "001"). So our code is behaving as we expect it to.

What is the firmware version of your SCC (the "U2" version)?
SCC firmware is U2 04 10. I did some more measurement today morning, and problem looks that my SCC is laying for low powers.
SCC reports 60W (on LCD and on QPIGS) but from PV there goes only 24W (69V 0.35A). So yes, your battery current calculation is correct, problem is in my SCC.
I measure battery current on battery terminal with clamp meter, and there is no additional DC load.
My PIP takes about 0.7A when running from battery, with no load and AC is present. When AC is not present it consumes little bit less.
Why was falling battery voltage after SCC starts is mystery for me. It did not appears today.

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