PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Beat
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

tueddelkopp wrote: Sat, 22 Aug 2020, 00:26 Hello and Greetings from Germany, i am Rolf and i am new in this Forum.

I have a 4 kW / 5 kVA / PF0.8 Inverter with triple SCC, the Solarpower24 PRIMO MKS TRI 5K-48. I want to use it with 3 Pylontech US2000 LiFePo4 Batteries and with a Grounding Box to connect Earth to Neutral in Inverter Mode.
My first Problem was that my original Firmware 75.10 hasn`t had the Option 38 to use the Grounding Box, so i tried the patched Firmware 75.31a from this thread but this Firmware do not have the Option 38 too.
I'm also very new to this Forum. Greetings everybody.

You do not need the grounding box. As I found out on my Axpert MKS 5K the neutral of the inverter is grounded right at its output before the bypass switch. If it switches to bypass the inverter is off the grid and therefor the ground off.
Actually I didn't want this grounding because I wired the neutrals of inverter and charger together. This inside grounding can be removed or installed if not already there by removing or inserting the grounding screw. It is on the inverter board underneath the microprocessor board. There is an earth symbol next to it and a symbol indicating that it can be removed. You have to remove the microprocessor board first to access the grounding screw.
Check out your inverter in totally off condition by ringing with a multymeter between neutral and ground terminals.

Actually the way the system was delivered it is in contradiction with program point 38. Since the grounding already exists inside you cannot us an external grounding box.
Last edited by Beat on Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 02:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

Hello everybody, I'm new in this forum.

I have a few questions:
  • If I add a second unit in parallel to my Axpert MKS 5K (74.40) is it required that it also has some PV inputs or can I leave all PV panels connected to the first unit?
  • Does the "AussieView" feature of the update patch also work on the remote control panel display?
  • Where can I get the patch and the required loading software?
Thank you for your answers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Beat wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 02:25 I'm also very new to this Forum. Greetings everybody.
Welcome.
You do not need the grounding box. ... There is an earth symbol next to it and a symbol indicating that it can be removed. You have to remove the microprocessor board first to access the grounding screw.
Are you sure about this? There are small capacitors that should be connected to earth for EMI purposes, and they might use that grounding screw. Also important protection devices MOV2 and MOV3 use an earth connection near the relays (see photo below). If it's not intended to be removed, taking out the screw might leave an intermittent path to earth, with the PCB track under the main board sometimes touching the spacer, sometimes not. That could cause intermittent residual current breaker tripping, unreliable operation due to switching spikes getting into the logic electronics, and disable transient protection (via the MOVs).

Of course, if it's really designed to work that way, there should be no problem. Would it be possible to post a photo of the symbol indicating that the screw can be removed? On main boards that I have seen, several screws are indicated as earthing points, but I believe the intention is to alert the installer that if you run out of screws, don't skip this one as it is important.

Earth symbol and caps.jpg
Earth symbol and caps.jpg (188.02 KiB) Viewed 432 times
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Beat wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 03:01 I have a few questions:
  • If I add a second unit in parallel to my Axpert MKS 5K (74.40) is it required that it also has some PV inputs or can I leave all PV panels connected to the first unit?
The second machine doesn't require PV; it will work perfectly fine with all the PV on one inverter. However, there is a second MPPT there that you could possibly use to advantage, e.g. if you have an east-west split panel layout.
  • Does the "AussieView" feature of the update patch also work on the remote control panel display?
I've never tried it, but I'd say no, since the remote display (as opposed to the removable display of later models) seems to operate only via RS-232 commands.
  • Where can I get the patch and the required loading software?
Firmware is available via the index in the first post of this topic. 74.40e is here. All the software you need is in the one zip file.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by parrafin23 »

Thank you all for this fantastic forum, the knowledge and willing to share information about these inverters is just brilliant!
Hello to all btw..

Been reading so mutch on this forum of late and i have installed this P5K80MPPT-48 hybrid inverter.
Not sure how to post pictures yet, so manualy writing down the info on the sticker

Inverter Mode :
Rated Power : 500VA/4000E
DC Input:48Vdc,87A
Ac putput 220-230Vac,50Hz,22A,1ø
Solar rated current 80Ah
system Voltage 48VDc
Max Solar Voltage (voc)145CDc

I guess this is a rebrand of something and it's quite common.

Main CPU version in WatchPower (V1.13SP1, IS there any newer versions avalible?) 72.70
Should I update the firmware on my unit?
Im using the usb cable to an laptop with win10. Got a few issues with it disconnecting from the inverter..

Battery settup :
Got my hand on an Eltek Flatpack unit that i ripped the guts out of it, so im just using it to store the batteries, and the main dc fuses. its
I have 12 Monbat from Euroglobe 12MVR 150 as my storrage. I got them all for free. (Bloody heavy bastards, 51 kilos each, 112,4 Punds)

Solar Panels.

I have 4 285w panels, 2s2p, its quite cloudy morning and im getting 62.2v from the panels.

I bought battery equalizers of Aliexpress and those smal digital volt meters that im goin to connect to each battery so i can keep an eye on the voltage of each battery

Any Advice of a newbian trying to have some fun and learning experience with solar system?

Best Regards

Mr.P
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

parrafin23 wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 16:25 Hello to all btw..
Welcome.
Not sure how to post pictures yet
Just drag an image file's icon from a file explorer to the edit window.
I guess this is a rebrand of something and it's quite common.
It seems like a PIP-4048MS.
Main CPU version in WatchPower (V1.13SP1, IS there any newer versions avalible?) 72.70
Watchpower is up to V1.14SP5. They've made it harder to find now. Click the ⊕ next to Monitoring Software here: https://www.mppsolar.com/v3/download/ .

72.70 is fairly old firmware now; 73.00 replaces it. There is also patched firmware version 73.00e. See the index for links. [ Edit: However, don't update to factory firmware version 73.00. Any machine that comes with main firmware version earlier than 73.00 won't work with 73.00, and you won't find out for 2 months. ]
Should I update the firmware on my unit?
You should read up about the premature float bug, and decide whether it is affecting you. It can cause your battery to not be fully charged, and lead acid batteries don't like that.

Fully patched firmware (like 73.00e) has a number of other benefits, such as KettleKomp™.
Im using the usb cable to an laptop with win10. Got a few issues with it disconnecting from the inverter..
If that's due to a dodgy USB to RS-232 adapter, that could be a problem with updating firmware. But it might just be Watchpower and commands occasionally taking too long to respond.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

coulomb wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 07:53 Are you sure about this?
I'm pretty sure.
When I received the unit I rung a dead short between inverter neutral and earth terminals. After I removed the screw the short was gone. Since I wired the neutrals of inverter and charger together the main earth leakage protection in the DB tripped. After removing the screw no more. The unit runs now for several months without problems with over 90 battery cycles.
It looks like your main board is somewhat different from mine. See picture below. The screw is one with flat round head different from all other screws.
PICT1310.JPG
PICT1310.JPG (405.07 KiB) Viewed 404 times
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by parrafin23 »

Thank you coulomb for the information

Here is the tag on my unit :
IMG_0058.JPG
IMG_0058.JPG (2.23 MiB) Viewed 398 times
By the looks of it, it seems it has pf1 and not pf0.8 that the 73.00e firmware is made for. What is your thought about that?
I'd like to flash a new firmware to the unit.. Btw.. Managed to get the serial to work as it should, its just the unit freakin slow to respond

Got the 14sp5 up and running fine. 76% SoC and Charging current = 0 with 56v Pv, not sure if that is the float bug charge everyone is talking about.

More pics of the stuff :
Device_Overview.png
Device_Overview.png (136.84 KiB) Viewed 398 times
Parasettings.png
Parasettings.png (103.12 KiB) Viewed 398 times
Any changes i should do?

Mr.P
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

Addition:
Anyhow, if one wants to run separate neutral wires and have the inverter loads completely isolated from grid then he leaves this screw in. It serves the function of an external grounding box.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by tueddelkopp »

Beat wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 02:25 ...

You do not need the grounding box. As I found out on my Axpert MKS 5K the neutral of the inverter is grounded right at its output before the bypass switch. If it switches to bypass the inverter is off the grid and therefor the ground off.
Actually I didn't want this grounding because I wired the neutrals of inverter and charger together. This inside grounding can be removed or installed if not already there by removing or inserting the grounding screw. It is on the inverter board underneath the microprocessor board. There is an earth symbol next to it and a symbol indicating that it can be removed. You have to remove the microprocessor board first to access the grounding screw.
Check out your inverter in totally off condition by ringing with a multymeter between neutral and ground terminals.

Actually the way the system was delivered it is in contradiction with program point 38. Since the grounding already exists inside you cannot us an external grounding box.
I am really sure that on my inverter there is no internal grounding of the neutral, not on input and not on output. I metered that out. Here in Germany it is not allowed to connect inverter neutral to grid neutral and thats why i need the grounding box. My Loads are totally isolated from grid in inverter mode.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

tueddelkopp wrote: Sun, 25 Oct 2020, 00:57 I am really sure that on my inverter there is no internal grounding of the neutral, not on input and not on output. I metered that out. Here in Germany it is not allowed to connect inverter neutral to grid neutral and thats why i need the grounding box. My Loads are totally isolated from grid in inverter mode.
It looks like there are different models and versions of that inverter. I thought they were all the same. In your case you definitly need the box.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Beat wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 19:03 I'm pretty sure.
It looks like your main board is somewhat different from mine. See picture below. The screw is one with flat round head different from all other screws.
I see at least 3 probably 4 capacitors connected to that earthing point, and you may have MOVs (large green discs) south east of that screw using that earthing point as well.

Since you have the relay contact for N-E connection, I suggest you replace the screw and no longer connect AC-out neutral to AC-in neutral.

I agree that the fact that the screw at that point is different to all the others is suggestive that it's meant to be removable. But I don't like the idea of those capacitors, and especially the MOVs, not being connected to earth.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

parrafin23 wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 19:50 Here is the tag on my unit :
Sadly, your inverter is a clone. Clues: the serial number has too many digits, the nearby case screw is silver, and it's not covered by a date-of-manufacture sticker. I'll bet it came with patched firmware version 72.70c, and there is roughly an 80% chance that it can't be updated. But it doesn't hurt to try. Watchpower won't report the "c" in 72.70c.
By the looks of it, it seems it has pf1 and not pf0.8 that the 73.00e firmware is made for.
? The ratings are 5000 VA and 4000 W; that's what Voltronic call PF0.8. Also, 72.70 (and hence 72.70c) is a PF0.8 firmware (as are 73.00 and 73.00e).
I'd like to flash a new firmware to the unit.. Btw.. Managed to get the serial to work as it should, its just the unit freakin slow to respond
It might not matter if your comms board or USB to RS-232 adapter are dodgy, as I suspect you can't update anyway.
Got the 14sp5 up and running fine. 76% SoC and Charging current = 0 with 56v Pv, not sure if that is the float bug charge everyone is talking about.
Don't make the mistake of believing the SOC reported by the inverter. It's purely based on battery voltage and the low battery cutoff voltage setting. In your case, (49.8 - 42) * 10 -2 = 76%. If you change your low DC cutoff setting to 44 V it would say 56% for the same battery voltage. It seems like your battery isn't being charged properly, possibly due to the premature float bug. Perhaps post a graph of battery voltage versus time on an intermittently cloudy day to make sure. Consider doing a once-off utility charge to get the battery fully charged, so it doesn't deteriorate unnecessarily while you figure out what to do.
Any changes i should do?
If you have frequent load shedding, increase the back to grid setting to 48 V, and the low DC cutoff voltage to 44.0 V. These changes will unfortunately reduce your run time, but should save the battery from further degradation. With those settings, lead acid would only be expected to last ≈2 years (though those battery modules seem to be good quality, so they may last longer).

I'd also check the bulk/absorb voltage; 58.4 V (14.6 V per 12 V module) seems high for a sealed battery. A quick search did not come up with a manufacturer's recommended voltage. A safer voltage would be 56.4 V (14.1 V per 12 V module).
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by parrafin23 »

I had no idea that they sold me a clone, as you expected, it can not be firmware upgraded. I am torn, not sure what to do. The connection is buggy again, and i have issues changing settings in Parameters settings. I cant live with this knowing its a ripof, I did pay alot of money for this unit. I should have lisened to others saying i should get a victron.
Thankfully I have the original packagin for it. I think i'll try to return it.
I remember when i bought it from the store, they even accepted to open up the unit to have a look inside, wel.. they did open it.
Ohwel.. this is just a project for fun, not a life dependency to have it running, Electricity is quite cheap here in Norway anyways.
But I do enjoy playing around this stuff.

Thank you yet again coulomb for valuable information.

Mr.P
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

coulomb wrote: Sat, 24 Oct 2020, 08:03 I've never tried it, but I'd say no, since the remote display (as opposed to the removable display of later models) seems to operate only via RS-232 commands.
Thanks for your answers.
I had the same thoughts. I wonder if the remote control panel would work at all with the patched firmware. You should try it out.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

coulomb wrote: Sun, 25 Oct 2020, 06:50 I agree that the fact that the screw at that point is different to all the others is suggestive that it's meant to be removable. But I don't like the idea of those capacitors, and especially the MOVs, not being connected to earth.
Thanks for your considerations.
I see it somewhat different. This screw definitely connects neutral to earth. The capacitors and MOVs however should be connected to system ground, not to neutral. Well, system ground and neutral might be the same but what about all the other units that don't have that screw and whose neutral is not connected to earth?
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Beat wrote: Sun, 25 Oct 2020, 17:21This screw definitely connects neutral to earth.
? Only when the relay isn't powered, i.e. when not in bypass mode and power is on.
The capacitors and MOVs however should be connected to system ground, not to neutral.
They do, via that screw.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Lightly Patched Firmware version 75.21a for Dual and Triple MPPT models.

As requested, here is patched firmware version 75.21a. Unlike the presumably more recent firmware version 75.31, it has setting 38 to allow you to connect an external neutral to earth relay that comes on only when the inverter is in battery mode, using the dry contacts.
tueddelkopp wrote: Sat, 22 Aug 2020, 00:26 Finally i got a Firmware 75.21 from my Supplier that enabled the Option 38 to use my Grounding Box correctly.

Now i want to ask kindly if it would be much effort to apply one or some patches to this Firmware. It would be nice to have ...

* The repaired premature-float bug
* Firmware revision display screen contains patch revision

and it would be even nicer to have ...

* The bulk/absorb to float transition occurs with a different current threshold: (sum of maximum charge current settings) divided by 12.
* Float to bulk charge stage transition occurs at 1,2 V under the float setting.
* The battery low warning occurs at the cutoff voltage plus half a volt, and returns at cutoff plus one volt.
All the above features are implemented. In addition, the minimum charge current setting becomes the number of paralleled inverters times 3 A, standard is 5 A.

All patched functions have been tested, and appear to work. This version has some changes that make it work better with an LFP battery, but it could probably be used with lead acid in a pinch.
Attachments
dsp_LF1_75.21a triple MPPT.zip
(1.81 MiB) Downloaded 18 times
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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PIP4048 Parallel charging from UTILITY

Post by joaquinsfy »

HI @Columbus

I have 2 PIP4048MS working in parallel with firmware 72.70, working since 2018. Usually I charge at night using the utility at 50A using the master (MUCHGC050+crc) and now I want to use the slave charger to charge the batteries at 50 A additionally to the master.

I tried to send MUCHGC150+CRC, it's respond ACK, but nothing happens.

i also send PPCP102 to the slave to select SNU.

if I send QMCHGCR+CRC, it's says I can charge to 140A.

My other problem is that the slave LCD is broken, has backlight , but nothings appear, only the light ac/inv , no fault light, no charge light, and fans are working.

Thanks and have a nice Sunday!
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Re: PIP4048 Parallel charging from UTILITY

Post by coulomb »

joaquinsfy wrote: Sun, 08 Nov 2020, 18:21 HI @Columbus
So I'm an ancient explorer now? :)
I tried to send MUCHGC150+CRC, it's respond ACK, but nothing happens.

i also send PPCP102 to the slave to select SNU.
That looks correct to me. 72.70 seems to implement those commands just fine.
if I send QMCHGCR+CRC, it's says I can charge to 140A.
That's just a fixed response, telling you that this is a model that is capable of accepting parameters up to 140 for the MNCHGC command. It doesn't mean that everything is ready for utility charging.

I would also send it a MNCHGC command with m=1 (for the slave), in case the maximum total charge current setting is low. It might be that the maximum total charge current is say 60 A and you set the maximum total utility charge current to 50 A, then if you are already charging at 60 A from solar, then there is "no room" for utility charging, you would not notice any difference. You mention charging at night, but perhaps this test was during the day?
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by joaquinsfy »

Sorry, @coulumb , hahaha about changing your name!, in Barcelona we have a monument for you :D

At this moment, there's no sun, the battery is discharging at 5A, I change to utility, send the command MNCHGC020 and starts to charge at 20A, wait 1 minute, send a MNCHGC002, and charges at 2A, i send MNCHGC120, returns ACK , but nothing happens.

This slave has the lcd broken, I'm starting to think that also has the charger broken, the output is working because I'm using the 2 inverters at 6-7kw without problems, there's any way to know if the charger is broken?

i have another related question, when I send to the master the command to charge at 60A, it's works but the fans starts to make noise, at 50A are fine, do you know if it's bad for the charger, charge at 60A between 1am to 7am, about 6 hours?

Thanks !!
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by joaquinsfy »

Some news..

Thanks to @Tejota I change the communication cable to the slave, and send the command to charge and seams to work, maybe the command received by the master it's not replicated via parallel board.

i will buy another communication cable, and try with 2 communications cable.

Thanks guys!
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

joaquinsfy wrote: Mon, 09 Nov 2020, 01:03 ... when I send to the master the command to charge at 60A, it's works but the fans starts to make noise, at 50A are fine, do you know if it's bad for the charger, charge at 60A between 1am to 7am, about 6 hours?
That should be fine. 60A @ 50V is 3kW plus losses, that's a comfortable power level for a converter rated at 5kW continuous. It's possibly better to run at 60A with the fan running than at 50A with no fan.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Beat »

joaquinsfy wrote: Mon, 09 Nov 2020, 02:31 i will buy another communication cable, and try with 2 communications cable.
In the instructions for the parallel board I got it becomes clear to me that you MUST use both communication and both current sharing cables for two units in parallel.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Beat wrote: Thu, 12 Nov 2020, 20:20
joaquinsfy wrote: Mon, 09 Nov 2020, 02:31 i will buy another communication cable, and try with 2 communications cable.
In the instructions for the parallel board I got it becomes clear to me that you MUST use both communication and both current sharing cables for two units in parallel.
I think that the two of you may well be interpreting the phrase "communications cable" differently. Certainly you need both paralleling cables (the thick grey cables and the red-black twisted pair cables), but I believe that @joaquinsfy was talking about two RS-232 or possibly two USB cables for sending commands to the two inverters.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.
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