PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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daimyo
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

Hi,

I have 3xPIP-4048MS with 5400W PV and I am adding 5500W more...

Does anyone know is it possible to "return" excess power, when batteries are full, to grid (power company) with PIPs or I have to buy new 10kW grid inverter to do that?

All suggestions are welcome :)

Thank You.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

daimyo wrote:
Wed, 05 Feb 2020, 18:21
Does anyone know is it possible to "return" excess power, when batteries are full, to grid (power company) with PIPs or I have to buy new 10kW grid inverter to do that?
My understanding is that the models that can operate without a battery (so that excludes yours) can in some modes push power from PV to AC-out, but I suspect that they aim not to export anything.

So that's a no, unfortunately.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

coulomb wrote:
Wed, 05 Feb 2020, 18:33
daimyo wrote:
Wed, 05 Feb 2020, 18:21
Does anyone know is it possible to "return" excess power, when batteries are full, to grid (power company) with PIPs or I have to buy new 10kW grid inverter to do that?
My understanding is that the models that can operate without a battery (so that excludes yours) can in some modes push power from PV to AC-out, but I suspect that they aim not to export anything.

So that's a no, unfortunately.
OK, Thank You for info.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by grfarrow »

Hey all,

I have an option to go with a 64V inverter which I'd like as my current 5kw with 74.30 does not support patched firmware as yet, but based on the clipping issue at lower voltages I know this is not ideal.

Which is better, the 64V with patched firmware or the unpatched version I have now? If a patch will come out at some point I'd rather wait with my non 64V.

Thanks in advance,

Gareth

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

grfarrow wrote:
Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 15:12
If a patch will come out at some point I'd rather wait with my non 64V.
Patched firmware 74.40e is now in early alpha testing (eyeballing the code). Depending on my time, it should be available for beta testing in the next week or so.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by grfarrow »

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 17:57
grfarrow wrote:
Thu, 06 Feb 2020, 15:12
If a patch will come out at some point I'd rather wait with my non 64V.
Patched firmware 74.40e is now in early alpha testing (eyeballing the code). Depending on my time, it should be available for beta testing in the next week or so.
That's amazing news, thank you. Crazy that our purchase decisions are made by enthusiasts that fix factory issues... You guys are rock stars.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by solamahn »

4048V can export to grid
Solamahn PNG
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

Moderator note:
Moved a repair-related discussion of SCCs to the repair topic:
viewtopic.php?p=77504#p77504
Please continue that discussion in the new topic.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by mojo »

weber wrote:
Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 07:37
@mojo Please post photos of the labels on the sides of the two inverters. Block out the rightmost 6 digits of the serial numbers if you wish.

Hi, sorry for the late reply, was away for a week at the time. Here are the labels, your knowledgeable advice will be appreciated.
new inverter
new inverter
label2.jpeg (68.54 KiB) Viewed 1246 times
older inverter
older inverter
label1.jpeg (62.43 KiB) Viewed 1246 times

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Ah. One is a ...5P64 and the other is a ...5P. That means a different turns ratio for the transformer, and a different range for all the battery voltage related parameters. So the CAN packets will be different and incompatible. It will not be possible to parallel them.

It looks like your ...5P64 was bought recently, as it was manufactured in September 2019. Would it be possible to return it for a SOL-I-AX-5P (without the 64 at the end)? I think that the suppliers and/or the manufacturer see the 64 V models as superseding the 58.4 V models, but really they're just a different set of compromises. Sadly, it's possible that even if your supplier is willing to do the swap (perhaps with a generous payment to cover shipping), because of this superseding mentality it might be difficult for your supplier (presumably Mecer) to obtain a non-64 V model.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

solamahn wrote:
Sat, 08 Feb 2020, 13:41
4048V can export to grid
Hi,

Could it be connected in parallel with my 3 existing 4048MS?

I did not find 4048V model on ebay? Do you have some link to it?

Could You please give some more info?

Do you know if 5048MK can export to grid?

Thank You and best regards

T

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

daimyo wrote:
Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 15:18
Could it be connected in parallel with my 3 existing 4048MS?
No.
I did not find 4048V model on ebay? Do you have some link to it?
https://www.mppsolar.com/v3/hybrid-v-series/

The V series are hybrids, not off-grid models, so it's no surprise that they can export to the grid. [ Edit: However, they look more like the off-grid models, and may be based on off-grid hardware. That's speculation on my part. ]
Do you know if 5048MK can export to grid?
The MK (Axpert King) is a 145 V MPPT max model, meaning that it can't export to the grid. It's also the only dual conversion model, and it appears that the converter between the AC-in and battery is never run in reverse. It quite possibly is designed to be unable to do this. It's not clear whether it's possible to operate the inverter proper when the unit is in bypass mode (note: on this model, bypass mode and line mode are very different). In bypass mode, AC-in is connected to AC-out, and the inverter output is connected to AC-out (and hence to AC-in). If such operation is possible, then there would be a path for energy to flow from the PV-in to AC-in, i.e. to the grid. However, none of the operating modes in the manual show this happening.

Actual PIP-5048MK owners may be able to add real-world experience to my theory.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by jdavies1994 »

Hello all it's been a little while since I posted last hope you've all been well. I'm just curious if any of you have used the ICC APM software to switch on a control relay wired into the inverter switch (at the bottom) that switches on/off the slave inverters. And will switch more back on based on power demands etc in the house all programmed through apm.

Can any of you foresee any issues?

Cheers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by rinaldoparaipan »

The 100th inverter installed.


Thanks to your help I could manage some problems occurred.(Error 90, fan problems, firmware compatibility, etc, etc.)
You can see my works here:

www.ecowindsolar.ro
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 17:23
daimyo wrote:
Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 15:18
Could it be connected in parallel with my 3 existing 4048MS?
No.
I did not find 4048V model on ebay? Do you have some link to it?
https://www.mppsolar.com/v3/hybrid-v-series/

The V series are hybrids, not off-grid models...
Thank You... things are now much more clearer. :)

[ Edited Coulomb: trimmed quote ]

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 17:23
I did not find 4048V model on ebay? Do you have some link to it?
https://www.mppsolar.com/v3/hybrid-v-series/
Ebay seller said that V2 model is EOL and new model is:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/163192198388

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

daimyo wrote:
Thu, 13 Feb 2020, 14:00
Ebay seller said that V2 model is EOL and new model is:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163192198388
? But the one shown in the Ebay advertisement is a V2. Perhaps he/you meant that the V are now at end-of-life, and the V2 are replacing them. But the V2 are 450 V max MPPT models, so you'd need to add insulation monitoring to be legal in Australia.

I have no idea about the regulations in Croatia. Being a grid-tie capable inverter, they could well require type approval as well; they do in Australia.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by daimyo »

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 13 Feb 2020, 19:22
daimyo wrote:
Thu, 13 Feb 2020, 14:00
Ebay seller said that V2 model is EOL and new model is:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163192198388
? But the one shown in the Ebay advertisement is a V2. Perhaps he/you meant that the V are now at end-of-life, and the V2 are replacing them. But the V2 are 450 V max MPPT models, so you'd need to add insulation monitoring to be legal in Australia.

I have no idea about the regulations in Croatia. Being a grid-tie capable inverter, they could well require type approval as well; they do in Australia.
My bad... V is EOL, not V2. :roll:

Yes I have asked them again and the seller said that they have CE certificate and do not have EU regional certificates so they do not import it into the EU. :x

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by mojo »

coulomb wrote:
Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 18:57
Ah. One is a ...5P64 and the other is a ...5P. That means a different turns ratio for the transformer, and a different range for all the battery voltage related parameters. So the CAN packets will be different and incompatible. It will not be possible to parallel them.

It looks like your ...5P64 was bought recently, as it was manufactured in September 2019. Would it be possible to return it for a SOL-I-AX-5P (without the 64 at the end)? I think that the suppliers and/or the manufacturer see the 64 V models as superseding the 58.4 V models, but really they're just a different set of compromises. Sadly, it's possible that even if your supplier is willing to do the swap (perhaps with a generous payment to cover shipping), because of this superseding mentality it might be difficult for your supplier (presumably Mecer) to obtain a non-64 V model.
Thanks for that. Will have to see what is possible.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by solamahn »

Nice numbers 4048ms
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Solamahn PNG
24x300w, 2x4048ms, 75kw AGM
24x280w, JFY6000
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30x280w, 2x4048V, 35kw Winston

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Re: Bricked or not bricked...this is the question....

Post by McMajan »

coulomb wrote:
Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 08:11
All opto-couplers seem to deteriorate slightly with age, so if it was marginal then, it could well be unable to handle a firmware update now. Ordinary communications (commands and responses other than firmware updates) operate at 2400 bps, where there is four times the time for the opto-coupler output to settle at the correct level.
[/quote]
Hi friends.
Yesterday I replaced the opto-couplers of communication board as suggested by Coulomb and yes, now it works fine.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber »

Awesome remote diagnostic work, @coulomb!
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb »

Beta Patched Firmware version 74.40e for some 48 V PF1.0 58.4 V 5 kW models

This is the first version of our patched firmware based on factory firmware version 74.40 for the Axpert MKS 5K-48 (non 64 V), Mecer SOL-I-AX-5P (not SOL-I-AX-5P64), and equivalents. I note that MPPSolar don't sell an equivalent PIP model at this point. There were no patched firmware versions 74.40a-d. We jumped straight to "e" so that "e" (and later) would indicate the presence of the kettle-compensation feature, as in 73.00e for PF0.8 models, and 72.20e for PF1.0 64 V models. See the first post of this topic for these and other patched firmware versions.

This patched firmware has all the same patches as both 73.00e, 72.20e, and earlier patched firmwares, including Dynamic Charge and Load Control, AussieView™, and KettleKomp™. This includes fixing the infamous premature float bugs.

It's been a while since all the patched firmware features were listed, so here is a summary:
Change Summary
LFP† and Lead Acid Patched Firmware
  • The repaired voltage criterion for transitioning from absorb stage to float (main premature float bug fixed).
  • For non-automatic absorb stage timing, only time when the battery voltage is near the CV setting counts as being "in absorb" (second premature float bug fixed).
  • "Font" improvements, and HS -> MS for Master units.
  • Firmware revision display screen contains patch revision.
  • Fixed "change a setting twice", and "limited steps" bugs in factory firmware.
  • Improved the accuracy of all charge and discharge current readings.
  • AussieView™ improved display of data.
  • Dynamic Charge Control (DCC): vary charge current by commands without wearing eeprom and without delays.
  • Dynamic Load Control (DLC): switch inverter-proper on and off by commands to save idle power drain.
  • KettleKomp™ (load/charge compensation for important battery voltage measurements).
LFP patched firmware only
  • The bulk/absorb to float transition occurs with a different current threshold: (sum of maximum charge current settings) divided by 12, minimum 3 A.
  • Low battery cutoff voltage range changed from 40-48 V to 44-52 V.
  • Back to utility voltage range changed from 44-51 V to 46-53 V.
  • Float to bulk charge stage transition occurs at 1.2 V under the float setting.
  • The battery low warning occurs at the cutoff voltage plus half a volt, and returns at cutoff plus one volt.
More details on the features can be found here and here, and in the manuals linked near the top of this post.

Testing to date

The patched code has been thoroughly checked by eye (a multi-day process), and has been running for several days in my two paralleled PF0.8 machines. Yes, I'm taking a risk (see below), but soon I'll be reverting to 73.00e patched firmware, so that my hardware is fully protected.

Paralleling PF0.8 and PF1.0 58.4 V machines
Unfortunately, there is no proper way to do this, unless your PF1.0 machine(s) all have factory firmware version 74.10; then you can parallel with factory firmware 72.70 in the PF0.8 machines. Failing this (there would only be a handful of machines with firmware version 74.10, and I don't know of any firmware update files for that version), then the following is a RISKY possibility. You could flash 74.40e into all machines, PF1.0 and PF0.8. Note that this will make the PF0.8 machines think that they are PF1.0 machines, so the fans won't work as hard, and the firmware will let your power loads up to 5 kW without triggering an overload. This is likely very bad for your PF0.8 machines. However, in a paralleled situation, it may be possible to guarantee that the total load when shared amongst all paralleled machines will very rarely if ever exceed 4.0 kW, so the PF0.8 machines should be safe. If you do this, you do so AT YOUR OWN RISK!

This patched firmware is intended for: some genuine 48 V PF1.0 58.4 V (i.e. NON 64 V) 5 kW models.

Do not attempt to use with clones, workalikes, or 64 V models. Check setting 26 before you flash: if you can choose values higher than 58.4 V, then you have a 64 V model, and this firmware won't work. This patched firmware is not for any model with a 450 V MPPT, or PWM Solar Charge Controller; only for models with a Solar Charge Controller limited to 145 V Voc at the PV input. It is not for any model with a removable display, or for 24 V or 12 V models, or for any apparent power rating less than 5 kVA.

The 'B' initial letter indicates a beta version (tested in-house, now available for testing by all, but not yet proven as "release" quality).
The 'F' second letter indicates the LFP flavour, or 'C' for Lead ACid / Cobalt blends.
The '1' third character indicates that this is main (DSP) firmware, not SCC / display / Bluetooth firmware.

For lithium ferrous phosphate (LFP)† (16S or 15S) or lithium manganese oxide (LMO) (14S).
dsp_BF1_74.40e pf1.zip
(1.94 MiB) Downloaded 21 times

For lead acid (24S), lithium cobalt-blends (LCO, NMC, NCM, NCA) (14S), and lithium titanate (LTO) (21S or 20S)
dsp_BC1_74.40e pf1.zip
(1.94 MiB) Downloaded 15 times

For reflashing instructions see the 72.70b reflashing instructions, but ignore the zip files there.

It should go without saying that you use this at your own risk. Please report any problems to this thread.

† "Lithium ferrous phosphate" and "LFP" are the preferred name and abbreviation for what is sometimes called lithium iron phosphate or LiFePO₄.


[ Edit: added DCC and DLC features; added Axpert and Mecer model numbers. ]
[ Edit: removed a chunk out of "Testing to date", which we suspect would happen with factory firmware anyway, as we didn't touch the battery calibration code. ]
[ Edit: replaced original zip files with versions that contain a minor update to the KettleKomp™ manual. This mentions more directly how the maximum charge current of paralleled inverters affects the strength of battery voltage compensation. Thanks, Weber! ]
[ Edit: replaced zip files with ones that have slightly corrected .txt files. The error was quite minor, and has no effect on the final dsp.hex file. ]
Last edited by weber on Tue, 10 Mar 2020, 08:49, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Added: "See the first post of this topic for these and other patched firmware versions."
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
160 W solar, 2.5 kWh 24 V battery for lights.
Patching PIP-4048/5048 inverter-chargers.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by chmcshane »

Hi There,

Thanks for the effort you guys are putting in!
Great timing, my solar coming up this week. Got the Mecer SOL-I-AX-5P from grfarrow (swapped out from my previous 64v version).

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by ropasci »

Hi everyone, before updating the firmware for my inverter I don't understand which version is suitable for a PIP 5048MS(64V) (PF1) with firmware version 72.40 !!! that from the specifications on the site:

"72.40-72.89: You are running older hardware, rated at 4kW (PF0.8). You can update to the latest patched firmware 72.70ℓ or 73.00ℓ."

My inverter would belong to these specifications while the real features are different.
Thanks for the help
Sorry for the english with the translator


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