PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

[coulomb]

Anyone tried the new Axpert VMIII or Axpert King?

However I'm curious if the existing communication protocol still works with the newer models.

Sorry for the late reply. I am able to read a firmware for the Axpert VM III, and can confirm that the usual commands all seem to be there. A few commands are present in the table of commands, but not implemented; these are likely to do with current sharing and the like, which doesn't apply to the Value/Economy models (they have no paralleling ability). This suggests that the Value/Economy and ordinary models do/will share the same source code, and the former will implement essentially a subset of the latter's commands.

There are several commands I don't recognise, such as QBEQI and PBEQA, which I think may be Query Battery EQualise Inquiry and Program Battery EQualisation Active respectively. [ Edit: the latter is most likely Activate, as in equalise now. ]

My guess is that the Axpert King (PIP-MK) models will eventually replace the Axpert MKS (PIP-MS) models having the same power and voltage, although MPPSolar doesn't sell or even mention the 5 kVA PIP-MK as yet. So I'd guess that the King will retain the usual commands that present monitoring software uses, and will likely add a few new ones for battery equalisation and the like. But again, it's just a guess.

[weber]

There are several commands I don't recognise, such as QBEQI and PBEQA, which I think may be Query Battery EQualise Inquiry and Program Battery EQualisation Active respectively. But that's just a guess.

Why guess when you can google it? See download/file.php?mode=view&id=642, now linked from this thread's index page.

Are you sure there's a PBEQA command? The above manual lists 6 commands that begin with PBEQ, but none of them are PBEQA.

[coulomb]

Why guess when you can google it?

Wow. Well found.

Are you sure there's a PBEQA command? The above manual lists 6 commands that begin with PBEQ, but none of them are PBEQA.

Yes. There is a slight mismatch between the documentation you found and VM III firmware version 25.90. But it's still very valuable for my work; thanks for finding it.

There are commands to set the equalisation interval, in days. So this seems to finally be real, automatic equalisation for lead acid batteries. Just when they are being replaced by lithium. But I'm sure there will be lead acid installations for many years.

[paulvk]

Seems like they have implemented most of the recommendations I sent them , just need plug in connections for the battery and AC so replacement of units is not a major task.
Note if you send recommendations to them make certain it comes with hard data eg flooded lead acid needing 62V for equalization as per Trojan specs.
I think lead acid will be around for a long time, lead is not that rare and its got a very good record of being re-cycled so although its toxic it stays in batteries.

[curasun]

Hello guys.
Disaster struck me!
Here is what happened may can help me....
Last week I installed a MPPsolar PIP-5048MG, on a lithiumion battery bank consisting of 84 cells of 24ah Ford energi hybrid, in 2p14s3p configuration, around 7.6kwh.
Connected first the battery and powered up everythings was right booted up and I connected the output to my fridge.didn,t connect pv because I was charging from a separate charge controller. Left till the following day.
Next day I installed a dc-breaker in my box and connected a piece of dual wire to the breaker, so I had NO pv connected to the breaker because I had to go on my roof to connect 4 panels in series.
So after connecting the the piece of wire to the breaker I went to connect the other end to the PV input of the inverter, as soon as I begin to tight the screw the screwdriver made contact with the case and made a big spark, the red light of fault came on and I saw the output went to 110vac. I turn it off immidiately and left it of for 3 minutes and turn it on again but then I heard a small explotion and I turned it off.
I live in the dutch carribean so to sent it to Taiwan will cost a lot, better to buy a new one. but I decided to let my fried wich is a electronic technician open the case.
We opened it and found 2 IGBT of the AC output blown, part number IRGP4066D. Ordered the parts when they we will change them.
I cann't untherstand if the case was live or the PV input had power on it. DO any of you unther what could have happened.
Next time ill turned it completly of before connecting the PV and AC in and out.

Thx in advance for you help.
R.G. Specht

[coulomb]

Disaster struck me!

I'm really sorry to hear that.

Last week I installed a MPPsolar PIP-5048MG...

So that's a model with the 450 VDC MPPT.

... I went to connect the other end to the PV input of the inverter, as soon as I begin to tight the screw the screwdriver made contact with the case and made a big spark, the red light of fault came on and I saw the output went to 110vac.

I suspect that the Solar Charge Controller could well be damaged by that event.

I turn it off immidiately and left it of for 3 minutes and turn it on again but then I heard a small explotion and I turned it off.

So that's possibly two separate pieces of circuitry that have failed.

but I decided to let my friend which is a electronic technician open the case.
We opened it and found 2 IGBT of the AC output blown, part number IRGP4066D. Ordered the parts when they we will change them.

Please use the first post index of this thread and read my posts on repairing the IGBTs in a PIP-4048. Most likely when the IGBTs fail short circuit, their gates connect with the 400 V bus and blow up some of the gate drivers. So you need to test and repair as needed any gate drivers, otherwise the new parts will fail immediately. With two IGBTs it's not too bad, but if you've just replaced 16 or more MOSFETs on the battery side, it can be very disheartening to have them all blow up within a second of switch-on.

While the IGBTs tend to fail in obvious ways, the gate drivers can fail while appearing normal. Even if they have burned up, they are so small it's often difficult to notice the problem unless you really look for them. Also check the other pair of IGBTs very carefully. We have had some fail with only the most subtle of cracks to indicate a problem.

I can't understand if the case was live or the PV input had power on it. DO any of you [ understand ] what could have happened.

Your model has the 450 VDC MPPT. This model doesn't buck down to battery voltage like the 145 VDC models. I believe that it boosts directly to the ~400 VDC bus; that's the same bus (possibly on the other side of the buck stage) as the inverter IGBTs run from to make 230 VAC. Since solar panels are isolated from their cases and therefore from earth/ground potential, there is no need for electrical isolation in the MPPT. (The 145 VDC MPPTs are not isolated either, in that case from the 48 V battery). When inverting, the 400 VDC bus has switching voltage on it with respect to the AC outputs. The neutral output will be at earth potential, so the DC bus will have a complicated but low impedance potential with respect to earth and therefore the metal chassis. Your screwdriver short circuited this potential, allowing a high current to flow. That current will have flowed through a pair of IGBTs. That's why one pair failed. As soon as one pair failed short circuit, it likely protected the other pair, although I would not be surprised if they were partly damaged in some way.

After checking and if necessary repairing the other IGBTs and gate drivers, I would completely disconnect the MPPT when first testing the inverter. There could well be a problem with the MPPT, which could affect the inverter, possibly in damaging ways. Check for damage and/or short circuits in the MPPT before reconnecting.

That was an expensive lesson.

[Vissie]

Good day
I have a question. Can I test the main board by just plugging the control board in and connect the 48V batteries and shorting the switch pins?
Or must it be screwed onto the casing for the 4 earth screws to make connections?
I repaired 2 boards and was trying to test it like this after I was sure that the signals was going to the gates like in previous posts
The lcd comes on but it only shows the battery on screen and will not switch on the inverter
The one board had a 10k resistor and one O/P diode on the switched power supply blown. The other one blew one of the small transistors that drives the small signal transformers that supply the square wave to the fet gates. All the fets and igbts were ok
I need to know as it is a pain to screw everything back every time to test.

Ok. I build it in and there is no difference. One of the control boards gives a fault code ( HS) I cannot find it in the service manual. Does anybody know what it is?

[curasun]

Coulomb Thx for you reply.
I'll let my technician see the post and do the testing of the gate drivers.
(Vissie also thx because you explanation in your question i the next post made the testing more untherstanble).

R.G.Specht

[coulomb]

Can I test the main board by just plugging the control board in and connect the 48V batteries and shorting the switch pins?
Or must it be screwed onto the casing for the 4 earth screws to make connections?

Yes, you can test on the bench; the earth connections are not required for operation. You can even run it without the control board for certain tests. Obviously you need to be very careful, and I would not run a large load while on the bench.

I repaired 2 boards and was trying to test it like this after I was sure that the signals was going to the gates like in previous posts

Well done finding those faults, even if you haven't seen them working yet.

The lcd comes on but it only shows the battery on screen and will not switch on the inverter

All I can think of is you might not have the right settings to cause the inverter to come on. Or it might have judged the battery to be "weak". Run through the settings for anything that might be stopping the inverter from coming on.

The one board had a 10k resistor and one O/P diode on the switched power supply blown. The other one blew one of the small transistors that drives the small signal transformers that supply the square wave to the fet gates. All the fets and igbts were ok

Interesting. I've seen more of the larger components (IGBTs and MOSFETs) blowing up, taking out the smaller components.

One of the control boards gives a fault code ( HS) I cannot find it in the service manual.

That's actually not a fault code; it's only a fault code if the fault LED (red) is lit, and the "ERROR" indicator is showing. The "HS" means it's a MaSter; setting 28 must be set to PAR. It's just so hard to get something that looks like an "M" into seven segments. Our patched firmware has an "M" in "MS" that doesn't look like a "H", which is hopefully less confusing. If this machine isn't supposed to be paralleled (does it have the paralleling board installed?) then setting 28 is wrong, and there may be others incorrectly set that is preventing the inverter from turning on.

Good luck; it's good to see people attempting to fix these machines instead of just throwing them away.

[Vissie]

Coulomb. Thank you for your answers
Is there a way to reset this control boards to the factory setting?

[coulomb]

Is there a way to reset this control boards to the factory setting?

Yes, there is the PF command (checksum 0x0439). The easiest way to reset to defaults is to download the free WatchPower program on a connected computer, and use one of the menus or buttons to reset all settings to defaults. I don't know the details since I don't use the program myself.

[Vissie]

Thank you. I will try it

[dRdoS7]

Hi,

Having just bought one myself, I was interested to see this:

Disaster struck me!

I'm really sorry to hear that.

Last week I installed a MPPsolar PIP-5048MG...

So that's a model with the 450 VDC MPPT.

... I went to connect the other end to the PV input of the inverter, as soon as I begin to tight the screw the screwdriver made contact with the case and made a big spark, the red light of fault came on and I saw the output went to 110vac.

That was an expensive lesson.

I wanted to ask: if the inverter had been powered off/isolated from AC & batteries, it wouldn't have happened?

I'll be replacing my "old" PIP-3048LC with the PIP-5048MG shortly (well, hopefully not!). Eventually, I'll transfer my existing solar array from a Classic 200 to the 5048. Just want to be sure the same can't/won't happen to me.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

[coulomb]

if the inverter had been powered off/isolated from AC & batteries, it wouldn't have happened?

Yes, assuming you've also isolated the solar panels, then the only source of energy is the bus capacitors. I believe that they have bleed resistors, so they will have discharged within about a minute. So all safe.

[dRdoS7]

Hi,

if the inverter had been powered off/isolated from AC & batteries, it wouldn't have happened?

Yes, assuming you've also isolated the solar panels, then the only source of energy is the bus capacitors. I believe that they have bleed resistors, so they will have discharged within about a minute. So all safe.

OK, much thanks.

Yes, I would def. isolate the panels too! Have to move the wiring to another DC CB for the 5048. Yes, the array DC isolator will be off too. Plus the combiner will be off. Think that covers it. Also, I'll do it after dark, as Mr. Murphy says: To be sure, to be sure."

dRdoS7

[6mdx]

Hi all, what setting controls the 04 low battery warning. My 5048ms is triggering at 49.5 v , which is not low for my 15s lfp batteries.

TIA Robert

[weber]

Hi all, what setting controls the 04 low battery warning. My 5048ms is triggering at 49.5 v , which is not low for my 15s lfp batteries.

TIA Robert

Hi Robert. The low battery warning thresholds depend on the Low Cutoff Voltage (setting 29). In the standard firmware, a low battery warning is given after the battery voltage falls below cutoff+2 V and stops after the battery voltage goes above cutoff+4 V. When we modify the firmware for LFP batteries, we change these to cutoff+0.5 V and cutoff+1 V.

I am pleased to announce that Coulomb and I are making good progress in porting our patches to the PIP-5048MS (Axpert MKS 5K pf1 with 64V option) because forum contributor Monkeytom has loaned us two of them for testing. Thanks Tom!

[6mdx]

Hi Robert. The low battery warning thresholds depend on the Low Cutoff Voltage (setting 29). In the standard firmware, a low battery warning is given after the battery voltage falls below cutoff+2 V and stops after the battery voltage goes above cutoff+4 V. When we modify the firmware for LFP batteries, we change these to cutoff+0.5 V and cutoff+1 V.

I am pleased to announce that we are making good progress in porting our patches to the PIP-5048MS (Axpert MKS 5K pf1 with 64V option) because forum contributor MonkeyTom has loaned us two of them for testing. Thanks Tom!

Hi Weber, thanks for the info. My two 5048ms turned up the day after Toms. I still havent seen the parallel boards.

Great that you two are making progress. It pretty exciting porting all your previous efforts to the new generation inverters.
Cheers Robert

[Savage1ZA]

Hi Guys,

Is there any new / additional information available about the error 51? My 5KW Axpert also now out of the blue, started with this very intermittently. What's also very strange to me, is that it only occurs during VERY hot and sunny conditions (30C+ ambient). Irrespective of load, and never during the night. In fact, it's always between round about 11AM and 3PM. Just as quick as the Inverter will start giving this fault condition (on and off, intermittently), just as quick it will just magically stop and return to normal pro-longed operation.

No change to any settings, no change to any loads, no change to batteries. As randomly as it starts, just as randomly it stops. My PV is also very close to the max acceptable parameters (as someone else posted) - I too, will be disconnecting my PV tomorrow to see whether the fault / issue persists without the PV connected. Someone else said they stopped experiencing the problem after disconnecting the PV.

[coulomb]

Hi Guys,

Welcome to the forum.

Is there any new / additional information available about the error 51?

You may be providing it here; see below. Error 51, for other readers, is documented in the user manuals as "Over current or surge". It seems to relate specifically to inverter current. There are separate limits for battery and line (bypass) modes; I assume that your problem is only when in battery mode.

My 5KW Axpert also now out of the blue, started with this very intermittently. What's also very strange to me, is that it only occurs during VERY hot and sunny conditions (30C+ ambient).

This suggests something is drifting with temperature, and the temperature may be elevating because the solar charge controller is working hard.

Irrespective of load, and never during the night.

If there really is no correlation with actual load, then that strongly suggests that the problem is a measurement problem, not an operating condition problem.

My PV is also very close to the max acceptable parameters (as someone else posted) - I too, will be disconnecting my PV tomorrow to see whether the fault / issue persists without the PV connected. Someone else said they stopped experiencing the problem after disconnecting the PV.

The correlation with PV has been mentioned before. I can't see how it makes any difference to the main firmware. So it may well be that the SCC (Solar Charge Controller), which is now packed in rather tightly with the main board components, is causing heating of some measurement components, e.g. the hall effect current sensor for inverter current.

What is your main firmware (U1) version number?

If it's earlier than 73.00, the it may not be working the fans hard enough. In 73.00, they increased the fan speed for a given PV power. Initially, I thought that this was a way of making the inverter cool harder during the day, and be more quiet at night when people appreciate the quiet more. But now it looks like the SCC might need more cooling than it used to, certainly more than back when the SCC heatsink used to be on top of the inverter. So updating to factory or patched firmware based on 73.00 might be a simple solution. It might also be worth noting the inverter temperature when the overload happens.

Instead of a sensor drift error, it might be that the inverter automatically derates its maximum inverter current limit as the temperature increases. I've not seen this in the firmware so far, but I haven't been looking for it, and might just not have come across it as yet.

The other possibility is that some EEPROM settings might be corrupted somehow, causing up to about 25% scale errors, and possibly offset errors as well. There is a command to reset these to factory defaults, but I would not recommend using it except as a last resort. You would lose any factory calibrations by using that command. There are commands to adjust the scale and offset eeprom calibration values; this would be better if you notice that power readings are consistently in error, and suspect that these errors are pushing your inverter to think that it's over the limit. But you say that there is no correlation with load, so this seems unlikely in your case.

[ Edit: Added sentence about losing factory calibrations if using the force all EEPROM to defaults command. ]

[birdibird]

Hi all,

I just wanted to share here that my dream came true yesterday.
Thanks to this and other forums, I made this work!!
(I know It is a bit off topic, as this topic is Non-EV, but it is also about the PIP (and I also have LiFePO4 batteries )

We are now charging our Renault Zoe electric car off grid!

I bought the PIP-5048MG which supports batteryless mode, so I have a direct PV ->EV system.
And it is working!

This is my setup:

-24 220Wp panels in 3 strings
-MPP Solar PIP-5048 MG (4500 Wp, 48 DC, 5000W AC output, supports batteryless mode)
-solar fuses, RCCB, DC and AC MCB's
-earth rod
-MC4's and cables etc

I oversized to be able to charge on cloudy days and in the winter. Atm it is quite sunny here, so the real test is still to come

I am using the 'granny charger' of Renault (1 fase 230V) atm in 10A mode.
Today I'll try 14A.
Future will be to build a smart/open evse to squeeze the max out of the sun and the panels!

I'll keep you posted.

I am curious if one of you know if the tweaks you guys made in the software could work for the MG.

[coulomb]

We are now charging our Renault Zoe electric car off grid!

I bought the PIP-5048MG which supports batteryless mode, so I have a direct PV ->EV system.
And it is working!

Neat!

I am curious if one of you know if the tweaks you guys made in the software could work for the MG.

Most of the tweaks are about battery charging, usually a very important task, but in your case, not really needed! But of course not everyone will be doing what you're doing.

Also, we don't have any 450 V MPPT firmware to patch, apart from the VM (Value Mppt) models. So far, I haven't found how the main processor talks to the Solar Charge Controller at all. So for some time, quite possibly forever, there won't be patches for the MG.

[birdibird]

Also, we don't have any 450 V MPPT firmware to patch, apart from the VM (Value Mppt) models. So far, I haven't found how the main processor talks to the Solar Charge Controller at all. So for some time, quite possibly forever, there won't be patches for the MG.

I get it.
Can I somehow extract the firmware from my MG? Would be interesting...

I do have LiFePo4 batteries, though, which I might connect. Or not, to keep it separated.

Other question:
I ended up bonding in my distribution box earth and neutral. (I have no AC in). Otherwise the car did not want to charge.
Have you guys been doing this too?
The setting 38 did not work, I only heard a lot of rattling coming from the MG. That might be because I don't have batteries connected, not?

[coulomb]

Can I somehow extract the firmware from my MG? Would be interesting...

No, it's protected by a 128 bit password, so about 3×10³⁸ combinations. Plus, you need slightly specialised equipment and knowledge.

I ended up bonding in my distribution box earth and neutral. (I have no AC in). Otherwise the car did not want to charge.
Have you guys been doing this too?

Most of us have AC input, so that provides the earth.

The setting 38 did not work, I only heard a lot of rattling coming from the MG. That might be because I don't have batteries connected, not?

Setting 38 ("Allow neutral and grounding of AC output [to be] connected together") merely changes how the tiny relay on the communications board is controlled. You have to provide an external power supply and relay to do the actual neutral to earth connection. I can't see how that would cause rattling, unless your power supply (which in your case is only PV) was very weak. Was it around dawn or dusk?

I assume that your inverter has an internal relay for this (one of the relays is now a changeover type), so that with no power applied, you'd see neutral connected to earth anyway. It should stay that way while in battery mode. It would be in battery mode for you all the time, I think, apart from a few seconds after startup, and perhaps when the PV power is too low for the present load (including the ~50 W of idle internal load).

So I guess what you are saying is that you had to connect an earth from your AC switchbox or elsewhere (e.g. metal water pipe) to the earth of the inverter (AC in, AC out, or the metal box). I'd say this is needed to conduct away the switching transients from the Y capacitors (line and neutral to earth). These might otherwise upset the car charger or EVSE.

[birdibird]

Setting 38 ("Allow neutral and grounding of AC output [to be] connected together") merely changes how the tiny relay on the communications board is controlled. You have to provide an external power supply and relay to do the actual neutral to earth connection. I can't see how that would cause rattling, unless your power supply (which in your case is only PV) was very weak. Was it around dawn or dusk?

nope, I tried it at different times with the same result.

I assume that your inverter has an internal relay for this (one of the relays is now a changeover type), so that with no power applied, you'd see neutral connected to earth anyway. It should stay that way while in battery mode. It would be in battery mode for you all the time, I think, apart from a few seconds after startup, and perhaps when the PV power is too low for the present load (including the ~50 W of idle internal load).

How do you mean, with no power applied? PV power? If there is no PV power, the MG is off, because there is no battery connected.
So, I don't know if neutral would be connected to earth then. I think not, as it seems the setting 38 is for that. When the inverter has no power (off), neutral and earth are not connected.
Also, the MG switches off and restarts when there is not enough power for the load. This happens at dusk, so I need to be there to switch everything off.
The mode it is in is a special 'battery mode', as it bypasses a battery.

So I guess what you are saying is that you had to connect an earth from your AC switchbox or elsewhere (e.g. metal water pipe) to the earth of the inverter (AC in, AC out, or the metal box). I'd say this is needed to conduct away the switching transients from the Y capacitors (line and neutral to earth). These might otherwise upset the car charger or EVSE.

I put a earth rod in the ground and connected it in my switchbox to the earth wire of AC out (earth AC out, AC in and the metal box are interlinked in the inverter) and of course to the earth wires of the car and the house circuits.
This did not work for the car. After reading a lot and speaking to various people I interconnected earth and neutral in my switchbox and then it worked.