PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

non-EV Solar, Wind and other renewable power sources
non-EV batteries and other energy storage stuff
Forum rules
Important!
This forum is for discussion of Non-EV matters.
paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 20:09

weber wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 11:24
Replacing a failed 4048 in a parallel set is a problem people will increasingly be facing. I do not have a solution.
My solution was to have a spare infact I have two, one for each location.
When you consider the difference in cost compared to say a victron unit a full set of spares is still cheaper!

Solar Junky
Groupie
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 04:00
Real Name: Danny
Location: Orlando

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 00:53

bigjsl wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 13:53
I bought one of these clones.

It came with a parallel kit installed.

Parallel mode was enabled.

So far, I haven't been able to install Coulomb's firmware but I haven't tried since I turned parallel mode off.

It is however working quite well and I will probably buy a second and possibly third one to run in parallel.

The firmware update process starts, the inverter stops making AC so it's clearly talking but the actual update process doesn't get to reporting any further progress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5KVA-Pu ... 26839.html
Thanks for the post! Looks like my first unit.

Solar Junky
Groupie
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 04:00
Real Name: Danny
Location: Orlando

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 01:01

Thanks everyone for the awesome input. Always hated that my two units didn't match I bought them at different times.

Link to my system https://youtu.be/K7OaZ3tzMxk

Solar Junky
Groupie
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat, 15 Oct 2016, 04:00
Real Name: Danny
Location: Orlando

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Solar Junky » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 01:05

bigjsl wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 13:53
I bought one of these clones.

It came with a parallel kit installed.

Parallel mode was enabled.

So far, I haven't been able to install Coulomb's firmware but I haven't tried since I turned parallel mode off.

It is however working quite well and I will probably buy a second and possibly third one to run in parallel.

The firmware update process starts, the inverter stops making AC so it's clearly talking but the actual update process doesn't get to reporting any further progress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5KVA-Pu ... 26839.html
Like this older 4048 style build with the big heat sink.... seems more heavy duty. Think they change them to save on Manufacturing & shipping cost??

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2539
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 14:05

DanoP wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 18:17
Hello, on LCD is shown battery current 1A, but real current measured on battery wire is 0A (oscilating +- 20 mA). PIP is in bypas mode (L). QPIGS response is 235.1 49.9 235.1 49.9 0564 0525 013 412 51.00 001 028 0038 0001 060.4 50.99 00000 01110110 00 00 00086 010

Your QPIGS response shows 86 watts of SCC output power (2nd-last field, "00086"). With a 51.0 V battery, that's 1.7 A. That appears, truncated, as 1 A of SCC output current (13th field, "0001"). When in line mode with AC charging off, our code subtracts 0.7 A of losses and then rounds to the nearest whole amp. That's why it shows 1 A going into the battery (10th field, "001"). So our code is behaving as we expect it to.

But you measure 0 A (± 0.2 A) and tell us that the battery voltage is falling.
Do you have any other DC loads, apart from the PIP-4048?
Where are you measuring the current?
How are you measuring the current?

Assuming you're correctly measuring the current at the inverter's battery terminals, there are two possibilities. Either:
1. The losses in your inverter when in line mode with AC charging off, are far higher than we have measured on our own PIP-4048's, being about 1.7 A compared to our 0.7 A.
or
2. Your SCC is overestimating its output current by about 1 A.

The second option seems far more likely than the first. We don't patch the SCC code, but we do sometimes have to lie to the SCC about AC charge current, when we want a max total charge current below 10 A or above 60 A (or above 80 A depending on SCC version).

What is the firmware version of your SCC (the "U2" version)?
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 18:56

coulomb wrote:
Mon, 13 Aug 2018, 22:19
I note that the MSE series, being "economy" models, aren't parallelable. So they should not have the major charge bug, which is in a function associated with parallel operation.
Weber goaded me into doing the hard work to test this theory by analysing a firmware I have (version 20.44); that firmware is for a model that can't be paralleled.

While I stand by my claim that these MSE firmwares *should* not have the major charge bug, it turns out that they do :x This time, it can't be blamed on a typographical error like less than where greater than is intended, in this firmware they explicitly check the battery voltage with the float voltage setting, and there is no comparison with the absorb voltage setting (misnamed as the CV setting) at all. I can't explain how they keep getting it wrong.

Or at least, I believe that they are still getting it wrong in the MSE models. If anyone has one of these models, please check for the bug presence, using the method Weber described here, and post the results. Perhaps I'm misreading the firmware, and something else will ensure that the battery voltage reaches the absorb voltage setting before the absorb stage is terminated.

Edit: Another possibility is that I'm looking at old firmware and they've corrected the bug by the relatively modern MSE series.

I note that Weber's post re the way to test for the charge bug was back in December 2015. That's well over 2½ years ago!

Edit Jan 2019: I can confirm that the same bugs exist in the PIP-5048GK / Axpert VM III models (newer models with the fancy new LCD, USB, etc), using firmware version 25.90.

[ Edit: tried to smooth out the mouthful in the first sentence. ]
[ Edit: Made it clear which firmwares should not have the major charge bug. ]
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

User avatar
reecho
Senior Member
Posts: 658
Joined: Sun, 17 Apr 2011, 02:39
Real Name: Richard Baird
Location: Perth WA
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by reecho » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 20:15

Handy that I have just completed a MSE PIP setup with AVASS cells...

Before we test I would suggest it does have the float bug... on initial monitoring...

DanoP
Noobie
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 16:44
Real Name: Daniel Petrik

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by DanoP » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 22:36

weber wrote:
Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 14:05
DanoP wrote:
Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 18:17
Hello, on LCD is shown battery current 1A, but real current measured on battery wire is 0A (oscilating +- 20 mA). PIP is in bypas mode (L). QPIGS response is 235.1 49.9 235.1 49.9 0564 0525 013 412 51.00 001 028 0038 0001 060.4 50.99 00000 01110110 00 00 00086 010
Your QPIGS response shows 86 watts of SCC output power (2nd-last field, "00086"). With a 51.0 V battery, that's 1.7 A. That appears, truncated, as 1 A of SCC output current (13th field, "0001"). When in line mode with AC charging off, our code subtracts 0.7 A of losses and then rounds to the nearest whole amp. That's why it shows 1 A going into the battery (10th field, "001"). So our code is behaving as we expect it to.

What is the firmware version of your SCC (the "U2" version)?
SCC firmware is U2 04 10. I did some more measurement today morning, and problem looks that my SCC is laying for low powers.
SCC reports 60W (on LCD and on QPIGS) but from PV there goes only 24W (69V 0.35A). So yes, your battery current calculation is correct, problem is in my SCC.
I measure battery current on battery terminal with clamp meter, and there is no additional DC load.
My PIP takes about 0.7A when running from battery, with no load and AC is present. When AC is not present it consumes little bit less.
Why was falling battery voltage after SCC starts is mystery for me. It did not appears today.

User avatar
Vissie
Noobie
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 07:24
Location: South Africa

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Vissie » Wed, 05 Sep 2018, 22:33

Inverter/charger blowing Dc Dc converter and buck IGBTs
Good day
My name is Vissie and I am new here
I read through most of the posts and think some of you guys would be able to help me with this one
Model: SOL-I-AX-5M
This is a new type. Manufactured Nov 2017
They use a new type of IGBT so they claim a power factor of 1
Rated power 5000VA/5000W and it does not have the heat sink on the backside

The IGBTS on the dc-dc converter and the only one on buck converter were blown and blows again after replacing.
We used this inverter as a demo on a show and there was a problem with the grid supply and the inverter blew up after a short while
BUCK MOS Q31
IGBT Q27/Q28/Q29/Q30
One of the small caps (C142 to C145) 101j between gate and C of one of the IGBTs was also faulty
I tried to scope the signal from U9 Driver IC UC3525 by removing the 2 small drive transformers TX10 and 11 but by doing so I get no pulses on the primary side of transformer. I think the control circuit does not allow the ic to generate signals or the Ic is faulty. Everything on the Ic measures ok according to the service manual. All the driver resistors and transistors between IC and pulse transformers measures ok
How can I check the pulses? Should I remove all the IGBTs and then check on the gates after switch on?
I want to try and build it together without the casing on the workbench to enable me to measure the bus voltage and see if all is ok there
This unit also has a complete new board for solar charger that fits on top of the main board
I found the post from Coulomb on how to check the drive signal on the battery side mosfets and want to know if there is any method to test the signal on the dc dc side
Any help will be apreciated
Attachments
IMG_2478.JPG
pulse transformers
IMG_2478.JPG (109.53 KiB) Viewed 1818 times
IMG_2479.JPG
U9
IMG_2479.JPG (101.44 KiB) Viewed 1818 times

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 07:01

Vissie wrote:
Wed, 05 Sep 2018, 22:33
My name is Vissie and I am new here
Hi, Vissie, and welcome.
This is a new type. Manufactured Nov 2017
They use a new type of IGBT so they claim a power factor of 1
Rated power 5000VA/5000W
I note that upgrading from power factor 0.8 to 1.0 does not affect the inverter IGBTs. Are you saying that the high-side full bridge now uses higher power IGBTs? I guess that's part of how they get the extra power.
and it does not have the heat sink on the backside
Do you mean it doesn't have the black heatsink on the top of the unit, for the SCC? The top heatsink has been gone for years.
We used this inverter as a demo on a show and there was a problem with the grid supply and the inverter blew up after a short while
Not a great demonstration, then :(
One of the small caps (C142 to C145) 101j between gate and C of one of the IGBTs was also faulty
Do you mean between emitter and collector of one of the IGBTs? Collector to gate sounds unusual, but I may have traced the schematic incorrectly.
I tried to scope the signal from U9 Driver IC UC3525 by removing the 2 small drive transformers TX10 and 11 but by doing so I get no pulses on the primary side of transformer. I think the control circuit does not allow the ic to generate signals or the Ic is faulty.

I presume you've enabled the chip by shorting the output of opto U19, as described in a post.
This unit also has a complete new board for solar charger that fits on top of the main board
Is it significantly different to the one pictured in this post?
I found the post from Coulomb on how to check the drive signal on the battery side mosfets and want to know if there is any method to test the signal on the dc dc side
At least on the PF0.8 models, and I assume it would be the same on the PF1.0 models, U9 drives both the battery-side and the high-side (bus-side) full bridge gates. So the same technique we described for the battery-side MOSFETs applies to the high-side IGBTs.

As a point of interest, are there more than 16 MOSFETs on the battery side in the PF1.0 model you have? If there are still 16 of them, are they higher current models?
Last edited by rhills on Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 10:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed broken quote end-tag
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

User avatar
Vissie
Noobie
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 07:24
Location: South Africa

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Vissie » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 18:38

coulomb wrote:
Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 07:01
Vissie wrote:
Wed, 05 Sep 2018, 22:33
My name is Vissie and I am new here
Hi, Vissie, and welcome.

Thank you
This is a new type. Manufactured Nov 2017
They use a new type of IGBT so they claim a power factor of 1
Rated power 5000VA/5000W
I note that upgrading from power factor 0.8 to 1.0 does not affect the inverter IGBTs. Are you saying that the high-side full bridge now uses higher power IGBTs? I guess that's part of how they get the extra power.

They use a new IGBT STGW80H65DFB. https://www.st.com/resource/en/datashee ... h65dfb.pdf
These devices are IGBTs developed using an advanced proprietary trench gate field-stop structure

and it does not have the heat sink on the backside
Do you mean it doesn't have the black heatsink on the top of the unit, for the SCC? The top heatsink has been gone for years.

There is no external heatsink on the back as in older units
We used this inverter as a demo on a show and there was a problem with the grid supply and the inverter blew up after a short while
Not a great demonstration, then :(

Luckily we had other repaired ones to use
One of the small caps (C142 to C145) 101j between gate and C of one of the IGBTs was also faulty
Do you mean between emitter and collector of one of the IGBTs? Collector to gate sounds unusual, but I may have traced the schematic incorrectly.

Correction. Yes cap between C and E
I tried to scope the signal from U9 Driver IC UC3525 by removing the 2 small drive transformers TX10 and 11 but by doing so I get no pulses on the primary side of transformer. I think the control circuit does not allow the ic to generate signals or the Ic is faulty.

I presume you've enabled the chip by shorting the output of opto U19, as described in a post.

I did not but will. I thought it was only for the battery side. Im not to sure where to connect the dc voltage. Must I remove all that IGBTs before I do it?
I ordered new Driver IC UC3525
This unit also has a complete new board for solar charger that fits on top of the main board
Is it significantly different to the one pictured in this post?

It stretches over the whole length of the inverter and sits on top of the main board
For some reason I cannot paste a photo of it
Last edited by rhills on Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed broken formatting tags

User avatar
Vissie
Noobie
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 07:24
Location: South Africa

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Vissie » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 21:43

So it looks like I have to use the main board only with no processor board or solar charger board connected and then connect an external current limited supply of at least 31V to the battery contacts of the main board. I will also remove all IGBTs on the dc-dc converter and the one on buck converter. Then I short pins 3 and 4 of opto U19 and scope the gates of the IGBTs

andys
Groupie
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed, 20 Jul 2016, 19:44
Real Name: Andrew Snow
Location: Sydney

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 08:54

Somehow I missed this until now. The newest range of PIPs is advertised as "PF1" models:

> “PF1” inverter standards for Power Factor 1.0 version of the PIP-HS and PIP-MS inverter family. All features on the PF1 series are nearly identical to the original PF0.8

This exactly matches the issue I found, that AC charging on my classic 4048MS is happening at a very dirty 0.8 power factor. So I'm guessing the newer models are much nicer for charging off generators and they've pretty much solved that problem moving forward.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 12:11

I have a few questions regarding two PIP5048ms units in parallel mode.

Generator input or AC Utility charge and the corresponding DC output charging rate of two pips running in parallel. Is this double the rate (120A) of a single PIP5048ms 60A utility charge rating ?

Has anyone used a PIP5048 with a generator and charged at the full 60A rating ? I had issues with the older PIP4048 not wanting to charge at higher rates than around 20- 30A even from a quality large 8kw Japanese generator. Apparently a few others had the same issue.

Would be nice the few times a year its needed with two pip5048 to hit the battery's with 120A - 6kw charge rate for just 1hr and replenish 25% of my house battery.

Im contemplating using two PIP5048ms units in parallel mode for a new offgrid house build. Though a little reluctant based on a few quirks / limitations of my older pip4048 unit. The price it so tempting $1,800 over the $8,000 alternative Selectronic SPpro.


Coulomb & Weber great job on the new firmware updates (AussieView) :D

paulvk
Groupie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri, 23 Oct 2015, 23:45
Real Name: Paul
Location: Sydney

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by paulvk » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 18:57

Yes with two you get double everything so you could charge at 120amps.
Note both units charge amps are set interdependently solar and grid/generator.
Yes the price of the other brands is eye watering even after buying spare inverters (which is what I did) you still have change.

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 20:54

andys wrote:
Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 08:54
This exactly matches the issue I found, that AC charging on my classic 4048MS is happening at a very dirty 0.8 power factor. So I'm guessing the newer models are much nicer for charging off generators and they've pretty much solved that problem moving forward.
The PF1.0 refers to the maximum inverter load, not the AC charging. They seem to have beefed up the battery-side and high-side full bridges to 5 kW, so now the limits are 5 kVA (as before) and 5 kW (up from 4 kW).

I suspect that the newer models will be just as picky with generators as the older models.
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

User avatar
offgridQLD
Senior Member
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue, 23 Jul 2013, 16:05
Real Name: Kurt
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula, SA

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by offgridQLD » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 13:02

The efficacy of 91% at 5kw output is a lot of heat to extract. I wonder how the 5kw versions will go running 80A scc and 5kw load at the same time or even 80% of that combination for any length of time.

andys
Groupie
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed, 20 Jul 2016, 19:44
Real Name: Andrew Snow
Location: Sydney

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by andys » Sun, 09 Sep 2018, 13:39

Thanks coulomb!

I am pondering buying an Elcon PFC charger to charge off generator, though it is alot of $$$, and I read they are not necessarily that reliable!

offgridQLD: You should consider what I did, the full fan speed mod. Just disconnected the 4th wire to the fans and they run at 100% all the time, thus (I hope!) prolonging the life of the other components.

6mdx
Groupie
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue, 23 May 2017, 21:17
Real Name: Robert Black
Location: Lismore

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by 6mdx » Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 06:15

My 5048 pwm has variable speed fans. It never gets hot. The exit air is barely warm with 2 kw ouput plus 2 or 3 kw solar.
But having said all that, the SCC has died and I am currenly undergoing the waranty claim process.

gbeppe
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 02:11
Real Name: Giuseppe Grillo

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gbeppe » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 02:20

sorry for the intrusion, I'm new to the forum even if I read it often. I have a system with two PIP-4048 inverters, 28 300W photovoltaic panels, 24 100ah lead batteries. I made a program that reads and analyzes all the data provided by the CPU and I would say that I'm happy, but I'm missing only the part relating to the configuration of the PC parameters because I can not get the command, that is, I send the command es. PBFT and I receive ACK, but the setting does not change.
Question: is there any instruction to send before the command to accept it?
Sorry for the trouble. Thanks for the possible answer.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2539
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by weber » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 05:44

Welcome @gbeppe

I'm guessing you have not set the battery type to "user", either by using the LCD and buttons to set parameter [5] to "USE" or "uSr", or by sending a serial command PBT02 with a CRC of 0x074C.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

DanoP
Noobie
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue, 28 Aug 2018, 16:44
Real Name: Daniel Petrik

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by DanoP » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 15:31

Hello coulomb and weber,
did you plan in next firmware add/modify PIP commands to dynamically switch to bypass mode (for LiFe batteries)?
Now we have possibility to dynamically limit charging current (good for top balancing), but it would by also great to have possibility to force PIP in bypass mode, when some cell reaches low voltage limit. I know I can get it changing either output source priority or battery cut-off voltage, but both are writing to EEPROM.
That would also allow to go to bypass when battery SOC reaches low limit.

gbeppe
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 02:11
Real Name: Giuseppe Grillo

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by gbeppe » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 18:42

Thanks for the quick response. No, no, the battery is set correctly USER, but the problem is not here, but on any configuration command sent by PC. I almost get the impression that before sending the command, you need a second confirmation command, but I have no idea what it is.

User avatar
Vissie
Noobie
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 07:24
Location: South Africa

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by Vissie » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 19:27

Morning
I received another inverter for repairs
This one had ghekko's inside that shorted the bus. The battery side fets and the 4 igbts of the inverter full bridge and the buck igbt were blown. It also burned a hole in the main board. Also a few drive resistors were gone.
Well I managed to scope the signal like Coulomb described and the signal looks fine. I get the gate signal on the bat side fets and on the dc dc igbt's
I do not get a pulse for the igbts on the inverter full bridge Igbts but it seems like its driven from a small ic or maybe the control board
So I am bit scared to switch it on without knowing if they get signal. I think after building all the faulty parts back I should only connect the current limited dc supply on the battery terminals and see what happens
Please can some one tell me how to post photos. I got it right the first time but not again

User avatar
coulomb
Site Admin
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu, 22 Jan 2009, 20:32
Real Name: Mike Van Emmerik
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: PIP-4048MS inverter

Post by coulomb » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 19:54

gbeppe wrote:
Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 18:42
... the problem is not here, but on any configuration command sent by PC. I almost get the impression that before sending the command, you need a second confirmation command, but I have no idea what it is.
If you get the ACK, the EEPROM value should have changed. It should also have sent the changed value to any paralleled machines. Have you checked against the LC Display? Perhaps your other software isn't checking the changed value correctly, perhaps returning a cached value or some such. If it's on a web page, control-F5 is your friend.
Learning how to patch and repair PIP-4048 inverter-chargers and Elcon chargers.

Post Reply