PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:39

paulvk wrote:
Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 07:28
My inverters read the AC voltages 3 volts higher than actual as its all of them (6) has anybody checked to see if they have the same
and can this be changed to be accurate?
If they were all similar we could add a patch. But alas, I have one PIP reading 245 V and the other 247 V while the Fluke 87 III reads 246 V, all on the same AC.
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Re: LG Chem Resu 10 with PIP-4048MS

Post by weber » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:47

djonexx wrote:
Sat, 13 Oct 2018, 19:22
So as promised I am back with details on LG Ghem Resu 10 working togheter with the PIP 4048 MS.
Great stuff djonexx! Thanks for letting us know. I look forward to hearing how you go with Dynamic (Charge) Current Control. Dynamic Load Control may also be of interest, to get that no-load battery consumption down, when we get around to implementing it for the PIP-4048MS.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 20:21

I have AC voltage and current meters on the input and output of the inverters so far all are 3 volts out just wondered if this was a common thing
since I know its not a problem if it had been a simple fix I would have tried to do it but will just live with it.
The only thing that bugs me is not having two cut over points for back to grid/generator as the inverters switch back
too quickly eg boil the kettle battery voltage drops they switch back only to come back on when the kettle turns off
this means setting the voltage lower than really wanted.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by curasun » Tue, 16 Oct 2018, 08:11

Hello guys. I'm glad again. 😊
PIP-5048MG working again. Replaced 2 IGBT IRGP4066D-EPBF.
Must say when a disassebled the unit I found a brown wire very close to the ground stud in case and it was like peeled in the tread, thats why the case was live.
Wanted to upload some pictures without succes.
Machine was disassembled by myself and brung the main board to a friend of mine wich is a TV repairer. He replaced the 2 IGBT's and measured every component he could and found a blown resistor wich he replaced, but didn't showed me wich. We couldn't test the drivers because we didn't had an osciloscope.

I carefully assembled it again based on pictures I made when disassembling.
I installed an copper pipe as a grouded rod in the ground and ran a wire to unit ac output ground. Connected the bateries to the unit and prayed. My friend said if it starts without popping the IGBT's it will be fine.
So it started up fine. But I wanted to measure the AC output, it was 0v,🤣.. But...I had the meter on DC volts, turned it to AC-volts and BANG 230vac, in the after noon when the batteries where full I started up my Airconditioner to load up the inverter and it was fine.
One of this days I'll connect the PV. and let you know.
This inverters are sturdy. What I like is they are REPAIRABLE and not that difficult to dis and assemble.
HOW TO UPLOAD PICS GUYS.??????
when I click on the hamburger next to option it wont change to atachments.....

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Tue, 16 Oct 2018, 10:05

@curasun Have you tried just dragging and dropping the image files into the reply editing area?
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by charliefd » Thu, 18 Oct 2018, 15:11

Checking in to report 3 and a half month of running version 73.00c without issues on a phased setup of 3x PIP4048MS with LiFePo4:



I love the fact that I can select independently what to display. That allowed me to check on the temperature of the inverters (ICC doesn't give me access to this info). I'm a bit concerned that 2 of the inverters show constantly over 50 deg. C, even close to 60 at times. The 3rd has a louder fan and shows at least 10 degrees less even though it has most of the base-load of the house on it. All 3 inverters have been purchased new, at the same time, commissioned together and obviously share the same ambient temperature.

Here we can see an afternoon where the temperatures left to right are 56,57,44:

Image

Is this normal range for these inverters? Could the fact that the 3rd inverter isn't charging explain all of the >10 degrees difference (it remains so during night time too ...)?

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 10:57

I also found on my units the heat sinks were getting to 50c and above
which does not fair well for long life from the transistors and more so for the capacitors
my solution was two 120mm fans over the vent holes at the sides controlled by a ST-1000 controller with its probe in the
inverter heat sink the fans cut in at 43c and cut out at 36c it never gets above 45c unless the room temp is around 40c

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36

A typical set of temperatures for my inverter is 36/34/41/44 °C for SCC/AC/Battery/Transformer temperatures respectively. Mind you, that's at 23 °C inside, perhaps 25 °C outside. These figures come from the not officially documented Q1 command, and reported by my Node-RED monitoring software on the "Monolith other" tab.

@charliefd, I note that the transformer temperature is often the highest one, and it's the highest reading that is reported by the AussieView™ display and QPIGS command (field 13, just after battery capacity %). It's possible that your third inverter, which reports the lowest temperature, is the outlier; the temperature is as measured by a through-hole thermistor near (10 mm) but not touching the transformer. It could be that this thermistor has somewhat different characteristics to the others, and I doubt that they are calibrated in any way. In fact, I find functions that might allow calibration, but they are never called.

[ Edit: It would seem a good idea to check Q1 on each inverter (there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to the Q1 command that takes a machine number). That way, you can get an idea which part is overheating, and which one seems to be the true outlier. ]

There is checking for the maximum temperature exceeding 60 °C, but it looks like a bug in the firmware causes it to always add 5 °C to the limit, so temperature limiting doesn't happen till 65 °C, that's why the fan speed seems to be mostly dependent on loads. My guess is that the extra 5 °C should only be added if the load is low (5% inverter load or less, and 5 A charge current or less).

[ Edit: added "is reported by AussieView™ display" ]
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by charliefd » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 15:47

Thank you guys for providing temperature values that I can compare to and good advice!
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36
A typical set of temperatures for my inverter is 36/34/41/44 °C for SCC/AC/Battery/Transformer temperatures respectively. Mind you, that's at 23 °C ...
I reported those values at 23 °C ambient. Now I'm starting to worry that my inverters wont make it past the 2 year warranty
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36
I note that the transformer temperature is often the highest one, and it's the highest reading that is reported by the AissieView™ display and QPIGS command (field 13, just after battery capacity %).
13th field is always 0 in my case (phased setup)
coulomb wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 13:36
[ Edit: It would seem a good idea to check Q1 on each inverter (there doesn't seem to be an equivalent to the Q1 command that takes a machine number). That way, you can get an idea which part is overheating, and which one seems to be the true outlier. ]
I'll contact @Manie to see if ICC could issue the Q1 command at least for the master inverter. I guess I could also connect my PI to the other 2 inverters and get all the temperatures locally

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 18:47

charliefd wrote:
Fri, 19 Oct 2018, 15:47
I'll contact @Manie to see if ICC could issue the Q1 command at least for the master inverter. I guess I could also connect my PI to the other 2 inverters and get all the temperatures locally
I thought you might just use something simple and temporary like Scott's CRCGen applet and a comms program set to 2400/N/8/1 if you have a Windows machine handy. Or you could probably whip up something for the Pi if that's more convenient. C source code for the CRC generation is available from this topic's index. The compromise is, the more commands that are sent to the PIPs each data cycle, the slower the overall data cycle becomes. Mine recently degraded from 6 seconds per cycle to 10 seconds per cycle, to cater for those fat cats with their dual inverters :D And you have three inverters to send the Q1 command to. It would be nice if they changed the commands to 9600 bps, as the firmware updates do. [ Edit: Weber pointed out in email that this would not help, it's a latency issue, not a communications speed issue. ]

I've just noticed that QPIGS returns the highest local temperature, i.e. it doesn't consider the SCC temperature. The AussieView™ temperature display also calls the same function, and hence also ignores the SCC temperature. Weber's temperature display code heroically shows a minus sign if the temperature is negative, but alas the original firmware binary search table lookup algorithm is such that it can't return a negative temperature. So we have room to fix this minor oversight, if we get around to it.

But with phased and/or paralleled inverters, ICC would be using the QPGS command, which doesn't have quite the same fields as QPIGS, in particular, it returns no temperatures. It's a nuisance.

[ Edit: more on data cycle blowout; added "in particular, it returns no temperatures". ]
[ Edit: binary search is in the original firmware.]
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by dRdoS7 » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 09:32

Hi,

I have a 5048MG, which I will be installing in Nov. According to the manual it should not be mounted on a flammable surface. My current inverter (PIP3048LC) is mounted on a thick formwork ply board.

I have seen quite a few pics & vids of the inverters mounted on what look like timber, etc.

Just wondering what others are mounting on.

I'd prefer to not have modify the board as it has a Classic, and other electrics mounted on it as well.

I thought if I can't mount it direct, I would use some rectangular alum. hollow section (or thick flat of which I have a few metres) and space it out from the board.

Thanks,

dRdoS7

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 17:37

I have my ones two homes , four inverters mounted on ply wood I do not see a big risk of fire
They could be mounted with fiber cement board behind them which has a good fire rating
If mounted on a metal surface earthing and insulation need to be considered

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by dRdoS7 » Sun, 21 Oct 2018, 13:08

Hi,
paulvk wrote:
Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 17:37
I have my ones two homes , four inverters mounted on ply wood I do not see a big risk of fire
They could be mounted with fiber cement board behind them which has a good fire rating
If mounted on a metal surface earthing and insulation need to be considered
Never even thought of fibro! Should have some in the garage. There'll be an air gap between inverter and fibro, so that should be OK.

Thanks,

dRdoS7.

PS. 2 homes & 4 inverters? Capitalist or Mormon, or both? :lol:

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 20:30

Actually 6 inverters 2 spares got them early at a good price.
Big battery bank second hand
2nd home battery bank was new but it replaced a previous 48v ups before I thought about getting solar so not ideal.
If I just wanted to reduce power bills I could have just got grid solar installed but there is no fun in that :D
Fibro yep that will not burn and that stuff sold in Australia as hardi plank would resist an acetylene torch!

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by dRdoS7 » Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 04:46

paulvk wrote:
Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 20:30
If I just wanted to reduce power bills I could have just got grid solar installed but there is no fun in that :D
Unless you have PFiT until 2024!

And a SPS!

I started with a UPS as well.

dRdoS7.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 18:15

I think you may have misunderstood it was not a 240V ups I had, for over 15 years a 48v DC system
and I still have it running 48v to 12v for various gear and some that runs straight off 48v.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by dRdoS7 » Wed, 24 Oct 2018, 04:35

Hi,
paulvk wrote:
Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 18:15
I think you may have misunderstood it was not a 240V ups I had, for over 15 years a 48v DC system
and I still have it running 48v to 12v for various gear and some that runs straight off 48v.
Uninterruptible Power Supply?

I don't see how there's a misunderstanding. Surely, if it is there to supply power when the main supply of electricity fails, it's a UPS, otherwise it's just a power supply.

My UPS was 48v, output 240V AC. Got tired of power failures, so put it in for "vital" appliances, it gave many hours of backup. :D

dRdoS7.
Last edited by dRdoS7 on Tue, 30 Oct 2018, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by aussiefro » Tue, 30 Oct 2018, 01:02

I have been a silent follower of the thread. Many thanks for Coulomb and Weber for the great work here.
I see the manufacturer seems to have listening ears, the King and VM III seems to be very close in features (kWh display, networking port for BMS, Bluetooth connectivity, detachable remote control) to the tier 1 inverters. Is it fair to say that they are ready to stand tall with the Tier 1 inverters

Thanks

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Rick54 » Wed, 31 Oct 2018, 19:06

Good morning,

i have been reading your post since 2 years. I am very impressed of what you are capable of. Thank you very much for all of you (especially Coulomb and Weber). Many thanks.
I noticed that now i can use the setting 38 with new firmware to be able to join a "grounding box" to the dry contact of my inverter to be able to have a safe system in my house when the inverter is switching from Utility to Solar or battery.
On the new generation of inverter it's done inside but i think that on mine it will be done on the dry contact.
Here is an example of ground box to avoid a floating tension of 90volts around between ground and neutral (here in France we need to have around 0 Volt between earth and Neutral)
https://www.wattuneed.com/fr/onduleurs- ... tml#idTab1
But before doing the big jump from my factory software to your homemade software i'd like to ask to the expert if i can do it if you can please.
I ve a U1 : 72.60 U2 :4.10 U3 : 01.06
It has been sold as a WKS 5KVA 48V (brand on the sticker is SUPERWATT)
It is an MPPT 48V can work with WatchPower But i'm using LUCIBUS.
And the user manual provided by my seller in France is the same you provide in this post.
And one last thing i tried to read the post regarding of what i need to plug (battery/solar/utility) to do the update but didn't understand what need to be on the inverter.

I wish you a good day and i put some pictures at the end of my post.

Regards

(English is not my language so i apology in advance if i make mistakes)

Here is few pictures to help.
Image
Image
Image

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 08:50

Rick54 wrote:
Wed, 31 Oct 2018, 19:06
Good morning,
Welcome!
On the new generation of inverter it's done inside but i think that on mine it will be done on the dry contact.
Yes, that's right.
Here is an example of ground box to avoid a floating tension of 90volts around between ground and neutral ...
It looks fine, in fact, designed for these inverters.
But before doing the big jump from my factory software to your homemade software i'd like to ask to the expert if i can do it if you can please.
I ve a U1 : 72.60 U2 :4.10 U3 : 01.06
Yes, I think that's fine. I assume that the U3 version number is for the remote display.
It has been sold as a WKS 5KVA 48V (brand on the sticker is SUPERWATT)
It certainly looks like a genuine Voltronic Power inverter-charger.
And one last thing i tried to read the post regarding of what i need to plug (battery/solar/utility) to do the update but didn't understand what need to be on the inverter.
Just run it on battery power, with AC isolated (in and out) and PV isolated (disconnected).
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Rick54 » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 15:06

Hello and thank you very much Coulomb for your answer.
I ll do that this week end with only batteries connected.
I read on other posts that there is an error90 for some inverters. Is mine can be blocked by this error with the 73 firmware.?
Or do I need to do the 72.70 ?

Regards

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by coulomb » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 16:53

Rick54 wrote:
Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 15:06
I read on other posts that there is an error90 for some inverters. Is mine can be blocked by this error with the 73 firmware.?
With your older hardware (not as old as mine), the only way you'll get error 90 is if you use factory firmware 73.00 or later, or if you use the now-obsolete patched firmware version 73.00a.

Fault code 90 won't occur with patched firmware version 73.00c, which many people including myself are running. There are ways of knowing if it's coming, and we know it's not.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by Rick54 » Thu, 01 Nov 2018, 17:53

Great !!!!
Thank you very much.
I ll let you know once firmware will be patched.
Have a good day.

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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by weber » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 08:11

Beta Version of Patched Firmware 73.00d for PF0.8 models

This is the fourth version of our patched firmware based on factory firmware version 73.00. This patched firmware has all the same patches as 73.00c and earlier patched firmwares, including Dynamic (Charge) Current Control and AussieView™. This includes fixing the infamous premature float bugs.

In addition, 73.00d makes the following improvements:

1. We have added Dynamic Load Control. This is a pair of serial commands (MNCHGC0497 and MNCHGC0498). The first forces an inverter into standby mode (disconnecting it from its AC loads and reducing its battery consumption to 15 watts or less), and the second returns it to normal operation. See the Dynamic Current and Load Control manual.

2. For the LFP version only: We have reduced the minimum tail current to go from absorb to float charging stage (when absorb time [32] is set to "Aut") from 5 A per machine to 3 A per machine. The tail current threshold is calculated by summing the maximum total charge current settings [02] for all parallel machines and (in the LFP firmware) dividing it by 12, but with a minimum value as described.


Note: This firmware is only suitable for the 48 V models with a single low-voltage MPPT and a power factor of 0.8 (4 kW / 5 kVA), not those with dual or triple MPPTs or a power factor of 1.0 (5 kW / 5 kVA), and not those with a maximum PV array open circuit voltage greater than 145 V DC.

For lithium ferrous phosphate (LFP) (16S or 15S)
dsp_BF1_73.00d.zip
(1.54 MiB) Downloaded 12 times

For lead acid (24S), lithium cobalt-blends (LCO, NMC, NCM, NCA) (14S), and lithium titanate (LTO) (21S)
dsp_BC1_73.00d.zip
(1.54 MiB) Downloaded 10 times

For reflashing instructions see the 72.70b reflashing instructions, but ignore the zip files there.

It should go without saying that you use this at your own risk. Please report any problems to this forum topic.
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Re: PIP-4048MS and PIP-5048MS inverters

Post by paulvk » Sat, 03 Nov 2018, 10:27

"that respectively force an inverter into standby mode"
Can units in parallel be shut down say one of a pair.
What happens with paralleled units if the load goes up will the standbys come back on?

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