CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by coulomb »

larrymudd2 wrote: Tue, 08 Dec 2020, 19:28 Coulomb:
Note that my last post was nonsense; please see the corrections. Sigh.
I tried the SETEC adapter with the Kona at the Midland charger, and still no luck. I also have a Type 1 to Type 2 adaptor, and ohm'd it out, and also found that the CS pin on the Type 1 side was also not connected to anything, and this adaptor has been working ok with all the Type 2 chargers i've connected it to.
Type 2 chargers? Surely you mean a type 1 EVSE, with a Kona you would connect a type 2 EVSE either directly or via your own type 2 to type 2 cable.
In regards to the 2.7k resistor that you think should not be present, this would mean that the proximity pin on the CCS1 side is open circuit, so if it uses this pin to detect if a car is connected, it would never see any change at this pin. I am wondering if not only is the 2.7k resistor required, but in a original type 1, there is also a 330R pull up resistor to +5v. I am wondering if maybe its not working because there is no supply voltage or pull up resistor on the side simulating a type 1 car connection.
I think you're confusing the two 2.7 kΩ resistors; the above is all about the CP (Control Pilot) pin. We've been discussing the CS pin (Connection Switch?) pin, which is the one that changes usage between type 1 and type 2 (and hence combo-1 and combo-2).

The Control Pilot is (as far as I can tell) identical between type 1 and type 2. So the connection of the 1.3 kΩ resistor in parallel to the 2.7 kΩ resistor at the appropriate part of the handshaking should "just work" with the CP (Control Pilot) pins connected to each other.
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by coulomb »

So I'm thinking that the problems with the type 1 to type 2 adapters or cables might hinge on the need for power on the CS (Connection Switch) pin.

[ Edit: as pointed out below, the CS pin is never connected to the EVSE/DC charger, so this should never be necessary. ]

What it might need is a 294Ω resistor (2.7 kΩ in parallel with 330Ω) to three AAA cells in series :o [ Edit: that's the equivalent circuit to what you see in a type 1 vehicle, which is what the combo 1 charger or type 1 EVSE is expecting to see. ]

Edit 2: Like this:


Battery powered CCS1 to CCS2 adapter pinked.png
Battery powered CCS1 to CCS2 adapter pinked.png (177.67 KiB) Viewed 414 times
Edit 3: Most type 1 chargers/EVSEs might only check the voltage with a high impedance circuit, in which case it might be possible to use smaller cells, like LR44s or even smaller. That might make it slightly less cumbersome.
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by larrymudd2 »

Coulomb:

I think you are on the right track with the CS pin and the resistor connecting to a 5v supply, but i'm not sure you can say the 2.7k and the 330R are in parallel. in the original circuit that you posted earlier of a type 1, it looks to me like the 2.7k connects between CS and PE, (which is the resistor already in the adapter) but the 330R is not parallel this, it connects between the CS pin and a 5v supply. so the 2.7k pulls down to ground while the 330r resistor pulls up to +5v
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by coulomb »

larrymudd2 wrote: Tue, 08 Dec 2020, 21:57 i'm not sure you can say the 2.7k and the 330R are in parallel. in the original circuit that you posted earlier of a type 1, it looks to me like the 2.7k connects between CS and PE, (which is the resistor already in the adapter) but the 330R is not parallel this, it connects between the CS pin and a 5v supply. so the 2.7k pulls down to ground while the 330r resistor pulls up to +5v
Sure. But what I drew is a Thevenin equivalent circuit, meaning that it behaves exactly the same, no matter what voltage or current you apply to the two, you can't tell the difference.

You can think of it this way: the 5 V power supply can be thought of as having zero impedance (just a voltage difference, infinitely stiff). Imagine applying a small AC voltage via a capacitor; then in a sense, the resistors are in parallel.

This is all well-known circuit theory.
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by larrymudd2 »

Coulomb:

yes i understand now, i did briefly study thevinen equivalents around 40 years ago and i killed a bunch of brain cells since then. since this CS pin is on the charger side connection, it appears we are only trying to simulate a car to the charger type 1 side but In the schematics of a type 1 EVSE it looks like this doesn't appear to be used as an input to the charger. it seems to only connect to the switch in the handle and some resistors, and the charger would never actually connect to this point any way. The other weird thing is that joseph has previously used the setec adapter on the midland charging station and it previously worked, so that increases the mystery of what has changed (and that test was done with a KONA).

I did get some feedback from the company i purchased my adapter from: "For most vehicles, the PP (proximity) is not supposed to be connected to the Combo2 end, so that is OK. The main exception is BMW vehicles - they need to see the PP connected. I believe Hyundai vehicles should not have the PP line connected, but I might be mistaken - we can revisit this possibility if needed."
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by coulomb »

larrymudd2 wrote: Wed, 09 Dec 2020, 07:37 Since this CS pin is on the charger side connection, it appears we are only trying to simulate a car to the charger type 1 side but In the schematics of a type 1 EVSE it looks like this doesn't appear to be used as an input to the charger. it seems to only connect to the switch in the handle and some resistors, and the charger would never actually connect to this point any way.
Duh, yes, of course. That pin is only for the vehicle. So I don't see any reason for any resistor or other circuit on the CS pin (Combo 1 side) at all.
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by larrymudd2 »

Coulomb:
I can see on a Type 1 EVSE the duty cycle on the CP pin is used to communicate the current capability when AC Charging.
I can see that on a Type 2 connection the resistor value on the PP is used to communicate the current capacity of the cable. The thing I have not figured out yet, is what signal or resistor value is used to tell the car that it is to switch from using AC charging to use DC charging instead?
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by pts260 »

Came today, tested with Tesla CCS2 adapter.
Screenshot_20201209-145736_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20201209-145736_Gallery.jpg (1.19 MiB) Viewed 406 times
Works perfectly
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by coulomb »

larrymudd2 wrote: Wed, 09 Dec 2020, 10:14 The thing I have not figured out yet, is what signal or resistor value is used to tell the car that it is to switch from using AC charging to use DC charging instead?
I believe it's 5% duty cycle on the control pilot signal, which indicates a switch to Power Line Communications (PLC, I hope I got that right), and something early on in the digital signalling indicates DC charging.
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by larrymudd2 »

PTS260:

That is great to know that your adapter is working ok.
That physically looks exactly like my adapter.
Since I've tried two brands of adapter on the Midland DC Fast Charge station,
and one of these previously worked with this charger, I am starting to believe
that something has changed with the charger that now prevents these from working.
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by coulomb »

pts260 wrote: Wed, 09 Dec 2020, 11:58 Came today, tested with Tesla CCS2 adapter. Works perfectly
Thanks for the datapoint.

But that looks like it's not Midlands, City of Swan, WA. Where is it?

Edit: As a point of interest, how much was the adapter from Tesla?
Edit 2: Or is that the AU$300 adapter from AliBaba?
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by larrymudd2 »

COULOMB:

The charger at city of swan in Midland WA is a Delta charger which has the problem with the CCS1->CCS2 adapters.
PTS260 Was testing with a Tritium charger and I believe he is somewhere in the eastern sates (PTS260 can you confirm your location)
Just as a side note, there is a new Tritium charging station in Guildford (a bit further down the road) , which is CCS2 version so no adapter required, and I can charge my KONA on that with out any problems. There also seems to be folks able to charge their ccs1 cars on the Delta charger in Midland without a problem. The exception was one report of a BMW not being able to charge there.
Since the problem is an error 122001 EV COMMUNICATIONS MALFUNCTION, maybe the problem is with PLC power line communications or the digital signaling that you mentioned earlier. I will have to do some more research on how this is done. I came across a study showing in some cases there is a noise problem with PLC during EV Charging. Here is a link:
https://g3-plc.com/fileadmin/user_uploa ... ith_EV.pdf
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by larrymudd2 »

In the DELTA manual it says that 122001 is a CAN error
There is CANBUS communications on the CHADEMO cable, but
I guess the PLC communications on the CCS1 cable is also
translated to CANBUS within the charger maybe, or the charger
is trying to communicate out the CHADEMO side rather than the
CCS1 side. Patric implied that the charger is suppose to automatically
detect which side is being used. maybe its getting confused.
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by coulomb »

larrymudd2 wrote: Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 05:44 or the charger is trying to communicate out the CHADEMO side rather than the
CCS1 side.
Could it be be something as simple as the CHAdeMO cable not being docked properly? :shock:
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Re: CCS1 to CCS2 adaptor for KONA

Post by larrymudd2 »

yesterday, g4qber and I checked the CHADEMO side to make sure the engaging switch was not stuck, which looks ok. We tested both adapters for a third time with no change. contacted Patrick and was told the Midland charger would have a software upgrade when the shire would sign off on it, so hopefully that will resolve it. We did note that there was a previous software update that happened after the Scetec adaptor was first tested and worked, and now does not, so that might have changed something in the communications that causes it now not to work.
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